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Old 2010-09-03, 16:30   Link #17161
Renall
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That would be fine if we weren't being told by ep7 that the child he gave her was not some pity orphan, but his child and his preferred heir. You don't give a delicious steak to a guy begging for bread unless you're feeling really generous.

It would make sense if Natsuhi weren't the current eldest son's wife, or if she'd already had a child, or if the baby is a nobody, but otherwise it just doesn't make sense to give it to her in trust, and if he's not doing it because he trusts her, then why? As a sick joke? Would he do that with a child he actually cares about?
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Old 2010-09-03, 16:34   Link #17162
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Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
Edit: though yes, that really didn't explain much why would he entrust a dearest child to Natsuhi. Why not just give the child to Kumasawa?
Because Kumasawa's a little old and Kinzo needs someone young enough to realistically be able to nurse the baby.

But then again he could always get one of his younger servants to do that.
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Old 2010-09-03, 16:39   Link #17163
TehChron
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Originally Posted by cmos View Post
It seems that it's you who is trolling me. Did you even read ep7 or just spoilers?
She was the GM for the main game, but she claims that Tea Party isn't her story, but just the truth.
Main game:
「時間の無駄だから話を進めるわ。……ライト。このゲームに挑みなさい。ゲームマスター、ベルンカステルの 名において、このゲームにあなたを招待してあげるわ。」
「わかってる。ゲームマスターとして、あんたに力を与えるわ。金蔵から真実を得られるようにね 。」
Tea Party:
「……あんたも、そして理御も。二人とも勘違いをしているわ。私は、ゲームマスターなんかじゃない。この物 語も、私が紡いだものなんかじゃない。」

And in ???? she says that she hasn't done enough gamemastering yet, she only did Beato's funeral and dragged the guts (which was just her duty, see end of ep6-7, no fun in it). And now she really intends to troll everyone to death in her next story:
「……私、まだ全然ゲームマスターをやっていないのよ?……私はベアトの葬儀をやっただけ。そしてハラワタ を引き摺り出しただけ。…………まだ、何にもやっちゃいない。」
「さぁ、ベアトのゲーム盤の駒たち……? 私を最高に楽しませる、最高に残虐な物語を紡がせてあげるわ。慄 きなさい、約束された絶対の運命を。……奇跡の魔女、ベルンカステルの名において。……そして、ベアトのゲ ームの、最後のゲームマスターとして宣言するわ。」

Come back when you read it.
Thats cute, trying to take a single misinterpretation of mine and then trying to use it as a strawman to nullify my argument in it's entirety.

But let's step back for a second, and then focus on the fact that the single greatest and powerful nullification of your claim is set in Episode 6, and I insist that it is you that needs to indicate the validity of Bernkastel's claims in Episode 7.

After all, Bernakstel insists herself that her viewpoint is biased, is devoid of "the single element" needed to see the truth, and even outright states that her own explanation of the events is going to be skewed.

So, like I said, once you can establish that Bernkastel's bias has no impact on whether or not the Tea Party is accurate, and regardless of whether or not Will got railroaded it had no influence on the accuracy of his deductions, you'll be free to argue that Episode 7 is the objective truth until we're all blue in the face.

But yeah, have fun proving that.
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Old 2010-09-03, 16:40   Link #17164
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
It would make sense if Natsuhi weren't the current eldest son's wife, or if she'd already had a child, or if the baby is a nobody, but otherwise it just doesn't make sense to give it to her in trust, and if he's not doing it because he trusts her, then why? As a sick joke? Would he do that with a child he actually cares about?
It's makes sense for Kinzo to expect her to do her job as a wife rather than trusting her. Expecting her to do something she's unwilling to do is cruel, but Kinzo is portrayed as being particularly sexist in times like these.

In addition he's portrayed as not even trusting his own wife and there are numerous references to Natsuhi being like his wife in personality in episode 5. So he might resent her for that.
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Old 2010-09-03, 19:27   Link #17165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
It would make sense if Natsuhi weren't the current eldest son's wife, or if she'd already had a child, or if the baby is a nobody, but otherwise it just doesn't make sense to give it to her in trust, and if he's not doing it because he trusts her, then why? As a sick joke? Would he do that with a child he actually cares about?
In a traditional family, which the Ushiromiyas still are this really is not a sign of trust or anything, but rather the opposite, like erneiz_hyde suggested. Through that he implies that he has not fullfilled her expected duty as the eldest son's wife and shall for now be nothing more than a nanny for his family, at least in his eyes.
Giving Natsuhi that child does not really imply that she would have any saying in his/her upbringing, that would be left to Kinzo. The child has to stay on Rokkenjima so there is no real danger in Natsuhi messing something up.

There is really no proof that this child was meant, in any way, as a sign of trust from Kinzo. Natsuhi was just the only woman he could use as a believable charade to hide that child's real identity.
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Old 2010-09-03, 21:28   Link #17166
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And what if she, you know, does exactly what she did? Shouldn't he do something other than laugh about it?

Or are we going to trot out the tired old "went completely insane / wouldn't put it past him" chestnut like we always do to explain Kinzo's completely incongruous behavior.
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Old 2010-09-03, 21:33   Link #17167
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Originally Posted by TehChron View Post
After all, Bernakstel insists herself that her viewpoint is biased, is devoid of "the single element" needed to see the truth, and even outright states that her own explanation of the events is going to be skewed.
She also states that they will be factually true. I really don't see any reason to doubt her on the basics. Otherwise her game has no point and will deliver nothing that Featherinne wanted.

Remember, EP6 was also about "with love, there are some things you CAN'T see".
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Old 2010-09-03, 21:40   Link #17168
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Let's see... My Son's wife won't get pregnant and have the heir I want. She also will not take care of the heir I've provided for her and tried to kill it. Now to keep this scandal under wraps I have to entrust my baby to an orphanage to hide it from the world and my Son's crazy wife. Not much left to do...

From Kinzo's perspective I'm thinking we should be arguing he wouldn't put it past Natsuhi. Because Kinzo is clearly not the insane person in this loaded scenario.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-09-03 at 21:50.
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Old 2010-09-03, 21:55   Link #17169
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
And what if she, you know, does exactly what she did? Shouldn't he do something other than laugh about it?

Or are we going to trot out the tired old "went completely insane / wouldn't put it past him" chestnut like we always do to explain Kinzo's completely incongruous behavior.
The Natsuhi that fulfilled the role as the child's parent is present at Lion's world, though there isn't any clue to how Kinzo viewed Natsuhi in that world.

But yeah, if Kinzo heard that the baby he gave to Natsuhi died not long after he gave it to her and only reacted with an insane laugh...I don't know, maybe he really went insane? Because Beatrice2's death is supposed to be not long before this happened, he can't stand the shoock of losing both of them at nearly the same time?
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Old 2010-09-03, 22:08   Link #17170
TehChron
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Originally Posted by musouka View Post
She also states that they will be factually true. I really don't see any reason to doubt her on the basics. Otherwise her game has no point and will deliver nothing that Featherinne wanted.

Remember, EP6 was also about "with love, there are some things you CAN'T see".
Yes, but the issue is which facts are true, and what is being embellished? Thats what we need to figure out.
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Old 2010-09-03, 22:14   Link #17171
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Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
But yeah, if Kinzo heard that the baby he gave to Natsuhi died not long after he gave it to her and only reacted with an insane laugh...I don't know, maybe he really went insane? Because Beatrice2's death is supposed to be not long before this happened, he can't stand the shoock of losing both of them at nearly the same time?
Well if that laugh is his real reaction he certainly never trusted Natsuhi one bit. Since he says he predicted that she would do it.

Quote:
I was sure that Father would blame me.
...However, he seemed somehow strange...!`

"Heh, ......heheheheheheheh, fwahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahaha!! I saw this coming, I knew this would happen! How long will you struggle? How long will it be before you're mine?!! Wahahahahaahahahahahaha!! I have no interest in an empty cage! Throw it away!!"`
But it also kind of sounds like he's blaming Beatrice here with that empty cage remark. Not just Natsuhi.
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Old 2010-09-03, 23:44   Link #17172
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Originally Posted by TehChron View Post
Yes, but the issue is which facts are true, and what is being embellished? Thats what we need to figure out.
Again, I really don't see much room for embellishment. The only thing we didn't get the "unvarnished" truth about was Beato, and that was simply because there was still "magic" in her flashbacks.
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Old 2010-09-04, 00:18   Link #17173
Renall
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Originally Posted by musouka View Post
She also states that they will be factually true. I really don't see any reason to doubt her on the basics. Otherwise her game has no point and will deliver nothing that Featherinne wanted.
I cannot believe you would even say this. Are we reading the same character in the same story?
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Old 2010-09-04, 00:51   Link #17174
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I cannot believe you would even say this. Are we reading the same character in the same story?
Apparently not. You seem to assume characters do strange, unfathomable things, like waste entire episodes trolling characters that were only introduced in said episodes, just because they're not nice people. Me, I prefer to believe what I read has a point.
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Old 2010-09-04, 00:56   Link #17175
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Apparently not. You seem to assume characters do strange, unfathomable things, like waste entire episodes trolling characters that were only introduced in said episodes, just because they're not nice people. Me, I prefer to believe what I read has a point.
What was the point of the Beato-Virgillia fight in Episode 3, then? Or Ronove catching the ring in said episode?

You know, aside from highlighting the fact that the former is Beato's teacher, and the latter is a smartass?

I mean really? Youre just going to assume that there's no information chaff in this episode, because it isn't like this would be the first time Ryukishi has done something like that?

Youre asking why characters would do strange and unfathomable things in this series? Are you nuts? Have you not heard the phrase "wouldn't put it past Kinzo"? And how many times was that phrase said in regards to actions he actually performed?

If you're default assumption is that you're not being trolled by anything presented to you in this story, then you're not really skeptical enough in the first place.
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Old 2010-09-04, 01:01   Link #17176
Renall
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Apparently not. You seem to assume characters do strange, unfathomable things, like waste entire episodes trolling characters that were only introduced in said episodes, just because they're not nice people. Me, I prefer to believe what I read has a point.
That was a completely pointless personal attack, and a gross mischaracterization of everything said here.

But really, do tell: What has Bernkastel done to ever earn credibility? What is her motive? Why is she, and not a character with distinctly more credibility, presenting this information? Why would the writer use her - about the closest thing the series has to a primary antagonist - as a vehicle for information?

I will choose to be suspicious. It rubs me wrong, and I don't think I'm misreading her character (such as it is).
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Old 2010-09-04, 01:01   Link #17177
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I have not read any of ep 7 and only just spoilers. (and just so happened to think about this exact same topic like an hour ago). The main game of ep 7 takes place in a world that is possible but not probable (doesnt bern have that "one in a million kakera" line?) . And Lions appearance was a place holder apparently. well maybe kyrie and rudolph could be placeholders. i mean you could probably replace them with natsuhi and krauss and make prolly as much sense. maybe even more in some cases (ie Battler getting shot).

Spoiler for Crack Pot Theory Time:
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Old 2010-09-04, 01:05   Link #17178
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The thing is, there is no problem with Bern showing something that is true. However, that doesn't mean she's showing what's underlying beneath. Take the scene in which Natsuhi is having tea with her imaginary friends in EP5, which you can take as one woman trying to cope with a lot of stress by finding some peace in her own mind. However, Bern's Red shows us a lonely deluded woman having tea. If you think about it, both of these hold true, but Bern's truth, whilst it shows what objectively is happening, doesn't give us the entire scope of the situation, which is held in the magic filled scene. Another example would be in EP4 would be Maria's life. When Ange saw that, she reached the conclusion that Maria was a miserable child who had to resort of delusions to fill the void in her heart her mother wouldn't fill. However, Maria said that wasn't true. She didn't think of herself as a miserable child, and she loves her mother. In addition, more than once we've been shown that, even if Rosa is not the best mother around, she does love Maria, and she does resent all the things that she's done to her.

So, EP7's Tea Party may be true, but that doesn't mean we've got the full scope of things from Bern. As she said, she's got no love, so she can only see so much.
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Old 2010-09-04, 01:06   Link #17179
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
I still stand by the idea that ep.7 tea party is a complete lie on the basis that red truth was incomplete and Bernkastel was just epically trolling everyone. I mean, come on...If she's trolling with anything, then this troll is the most successful ever. Why everyone just accepts it at face value that the tea party is any truth? Though I can argue that she still showed the truth in a way: complete negation of the negative is also the truth. Which means the truth is anything NOT in the tea party.
My pet theory is that Bern's red broke down because of the stalemate condition. Back in EP2, Beato said she wouldn't announce that witches exist because Battler would just disbelieve it and stop playing. I argued a while back that this was because you can't create a red truth for someone if they don't believe you. Ange was similarly threatened with a stalemate, so the same idea ought to apply. The theory that Kyrie and Rudolf could have been the culprits is too horrible for her to accept no matter what, so if I'm right, it should be impossible for Bern to force that truth to become red for her.
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Old 2010-09-04, 01:10   Link #17180
musouka
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TehChron,

You do realize you are comparing moments in previous games to an entire game, right? We're not just talking about a scene with a girl named Yasu, we're talking about two-thirds of the game going into extreme detail about how she started and how the end result was Beatrice as we know her.

What you are saying is like if the entirety of EP3 was taken up by the Vigilia+Beato magic fight.

So, yes, that means if those scenes were an elaborate troll by Bern--Who is she trolling? Will, Lyon? Why is she trolling them? Why should we care if she is?--they were ultimately pointless. That means we didn't just sit through a fifteen mintute or so fight scene, we sat through an entirely pointless game of Bern trolling brand new characters for no discernible reason.

Every other "troll" in the series has operated on more than one level. This? I have no idea what the point would be if it wasn't true.
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