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Old 2010-09-04, 09:33   Link #17201
Jan-Poo
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Shannon doesn't love George more than Battler
Hey but this is actually what Bern's story shows.
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Old 2010-09-04, 09:35   Link #17202
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I just realized a little late what Ryukishi is trying to do with the Umineko series. He is trying to play a game with all the readers in which they corner him and forces him to select one of their theories as the right answer. Just think about it, what if he once the fans discovered his solution, just changed the story as Battler does with his game in episode 6... to avoid the fans theories.

He is playing this "witch game" with us in which we are supposed to "corner and kill him" while he is supposed to avoid all our theories by making a story which does not contradict the hints given up until then.

If he manages to make a story that makes sense and does not match with the fan theories, it is his victory.

If the solution was already guessed by the fans or the solution doesn't make logical sense in the end, then he failed.

And victory and failure is what separates heroes from madmen. If he succeeds, Umineko will be remembered as genius, if he fails, then that's it and Umineko will probably be forgotten.

That is my reasoning and my final theory. ^^
It was fun. Now let's see if he can make it or not.
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Old 2010-09-04, 09:52   Link #17203
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Hey but this is actually what Bern's story shows.
But in that tea party, when George propose to Shannon, Shannon states something along the line of: "Yes, I used to love Battler. But now you are the one I love, George-sama". Or did I read wrong?

EDIT
also:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geekodot View Post
I just realized a little late what Ryukishi is trying to do with the Umineko series. He is trying to play a game with all the readers in which they corner him and forces him to select one of their theories as the right answer. Just think about it, what if he once the fans discovered his solution, just changed the story as Battler does with his game in episode 6... to avoid the fans theories.

He is playing this "witch game" with us in which we are supposed to "corner and kill him" while he is supposed to avoid all our theories by making a story which does not contradict the hints given up until then.

If he manages to make a story that makes sense and does not match with the fan theories, it is his victory.

If the solution was already guessed by the fans or the solution doesn't make logical sense in the end, then he failed.

And victory and failure is what separates heroes from madmen. If he succeeds, Umineko will be remembered as genius, if he fails, then that's it and Umineko will probably be forgotten.

That is my reasoning and my final theory. ^^
It was fun. Now let's see if he can make it or not.
If that's the case, using the LORDU theory to solve the epitaph makes it his loss already. Unless there really is another sensible way to solve that epitaph.
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Old 2010-09-04, 10:04   Link #17204
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Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
EDIT
also:


If that's the case, using the LORDU theory to solve the epitaph makes it his loss already. Unless there really is another sensible way to solve that epitaph.
Yeah, there are several possibilities for why it was done though.

1. The epitaph doesn't really apply to the game in the same way as the rest of the story does and really only has 1 solution.

2. Ep 7 was a troll episode in which he just shows a giant bunch of fan theories to show how much our theories are messing up his story.

3. The game we play with him has a "core mystery" that can't be changed, which includes the epitaph. Just like Beatrice's game in the story. This would be her "heart" then...

4. He actually couldn't come up with a sensible solution and lost.

5. I am wrong.
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Old 2010-09-04, 10:14   Link #17205
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Originally Posted by Geekodot View Post
I just realized a little late what Ryukishi is trying to do with the Umineko series. He is trying to play a game with all the readers in which they corner him and forces him to select one of their theories as the right answer. Just think about it, what if he once the fans discovered his solution, just changed the story as Battler does with his game in episode 6... to avoid the fans theories.

He is playing this "witch game" with us in which we are supposed to "corner and kill him" while he is supposed to avoid all our theories by making a story which does not contradict the hints given up until then.

If he manages to make a story that makes sense and does not match with the fan theories, it is his victory.

If the solution was already guessed by the fans or the solution doesn't make logical sense in the end, then he failed.

And victory and failure is what separates heroes from madmen. If he succeeds, Umineko will be remembered as genius, if he fails, then that's it and Umineko will probably be forgotten.

That is my reasoning and my final theory. ^^
It was fun. Now let's see if he can make it or not.
It's very doubtful, at best he might have done this with a very minor plot device but not with the major truths. Else he really failed. Not only the epitaph was practically solved, but the whole story Claire told us was 95% already predicted.

There was a military base in Rokkenjima? Predicted
The gold is italian gold and that was brought to Rokkenjima to avoid the allies from taking it? Predicted
Beatrice1 was the daughter of an high official that was in charge of bringing the gold to Japan? Almost predicted (wife instead of daughter)
Beatrice is Shannon? Predicted
Shannon real age is 19 years and she is the baby from 19 years before? Predicted
The baby from 19 years before is Beatrice2's son? Predicted
Shannon fell in love with Battler in the past? Predicted
The one Battler sinned against is Shannon? Predicted
The sin is about an unfulfilled promise? Predicted
The Rokkenjima incident left a crater of 1km wide? Predicted

And there's more.

The first part of EP7 has been quite boring for me, it was like reading something that I already read long time ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
But in that tea party, when George propose to Shannon, Shannon states something along the line of: "Yes, I used to love Battler. But now you are the one I love, George-sama". Or did I read wrong?
You missed a particular. Shannon says "Yes, I used to love Battler more than I love you now. But now you are the one I love, George-sama"

And from the Claire's story we know that such love never actually died.
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Old 2010-09-04, 10:31   Link #17206
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
It's very doubtful, at best he might have done this with a very minor plot device but not with the major truths. Else he really failed. Not only the epitaph was practically solved, but the whole story Claire told us was 95% already predicted.

There was a military base in Rokkenjima? Predicted
The gold is italian gold and that was brought to Rokkenjima to avoid the allies from taking it? Predicted
Beatrice1 was the daughter of an high official that was in charge of bringing the gold to Japan? Almost predicted (wife instead of daughter)
Beatrice is Shannon? Predicted
Shannon real age is 19 years and she is the baby from 19 years before? Predicted
The baby from 19 years before is Beatrice2's son? Predicted
Shannon fell in love with Battler in the past? Predicted
The one Battler sinned against is Shannon? Predicted
The sin is about an unfulfilled promise? Predicted
The Rokkenjima incident left a crater of 1km wide? Predicted

And there's more.

The first part of EP7 has been quite boring for me, it was like reading something that I already read long time ago.



You missed a particular. Shannon says "Yes, I used to love Battler more than I love you now. But now you are the one I love, George-sama"

And from the Claire's story we know that such love never actually died.
Which is why I think it's strange. Everything that was shown, I had already read on the internet... making me think even more that there is something else behind Ep 7... like a massive troll episode or something. Too much fits with the popular theories suddenly, and Battler is saying he will tell the real truth in episode 8.

He might have had unchangeable "core mysteries" that he really didn't want to change even if people guess it though. And which he had to follow to have his story make sense.

All in all I don't think Episode 7 fits with how Ryukishi said he wouldn't give out the truth to those who don't think for themselves and all that. Ep 7 is WAY too straightforward for my tastes and I think it really smells.
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Old 2010-09-04, 10:37   Link #17207
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It seems that a lot of people expect Ryuukishi to give us a completely unexpected answer to about almost everything, even so he keeps on telling in interviews that a lot of people reached a good part of the truth.

Ryuukishi is not seeing Umineko as a story he sees it as a game. A game should be difficult but it still need to rewards those who are good enough to win it. Ryuukishi is not going to give us a global "you lose". This story is solvable, at least in many of its parts.
So far Ryuukishi always used the same pattern, he gives hints in a progressive manner from very few to overwhelming and only after one thing is blatantly clear he confirms it. Ryuukishi likes to show an answer while telling that it was blatantly obvious (see Will he says it tons of times). I don't know why you expect him to be such a troll.
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Old 2010-09-04, 10:58   Link #17208
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Also, I'd like to know where does the 1km wide crater was predicted from, and where did the map come from? I find it really difficult to believe anything less than a nuclear bomb to be able to erase a good portion of land like that.

Edit: oh yeah, and this:
Quote:
You missed a particular. Shannon says "Yes, I used to love Battler more than I love you now. But now you are the one I love, George-sama"

And from the Claire's story we know that such love never actually died.
True, that love never died, which means Shannon saying that she loves George at all is a lie. The tea party shows Shannon accepting George's proposal as "Shannon loves George more now" which I know isn't true.
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Old 2010-09-04, 11:15   Link #17209
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I'm totally for the idea that an author can't tell us a bunch of lies, but that's unless he gives us some element to understand they are lies. We have some very strong elements to distrusts what bern has shown to us.
I haven't seen anyone here talk about what a swell, trustworthy friend that Bernkastel is, but putting the absolute worst spin on the truth doesn't negate facts. Will himself often points out inconsistencies with what he knows concerning the previous games. He doesn't just swallow anything Bern throws at him without thinking, but neither does he reject anything she gives him simply because she is the source.

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Now if the tea party ended with the death of Lion from Kyrie I'd totally agree with you. But what do we make of Will outright denying Bern's story and calling it "fantasy"?
You do remember that Bern laughed and ultimately killed Will without any effort on her part, right? His attempt at rejecting her story as a narrative failed, and the game already tells us why that's the case.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
What do we make of Battler telling Ange that the truth of Rokkenjima isn't a scary story?
An older brother comforting his baby sister, as I thought was pretty obvious. Battler tells her he will tell her what happened, but at no point does he promise to tell her the "truth". I don't think, as some people have parodied, that it will be a story full of well-meaning, accidental deaths or anything, or a "lie", but I think it will be "full of love".

Again, if Bern's Tea Party is the "actions", then EP8 will be about the "reasons."

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I'll have to ask you this mousoka. If you really believe that Ryuukishi wouldn't show something for no reason, then why do you think he showed us Will denying the "truth" Bern presented? Why he made Will use quotation marks if it was the truth? Why he made Will saying that it's fantasy?
Again, I thought the game was pretty crystal clear on this point. Will rejects it because he rejects that sort of ending for both sides of "Beatrice" that he got to know over the course of his investigation, and because he believes that Lyon's life and Claire's happiness is worth fighting and dying for. Whether or not the story is the truth isn't really the point of Will's last stand.
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Old 2010-09-04, 11:23   Link #17210
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Also, I'd like to know where does the 1km wide crater was predicted from, and where did the map come from? I find it really difficult to believe anything less than a nuclear bomb to be able to erase a good portion of land like that.
"900 tons of explosives" mentioned in Ep7 definitely can do it, regardless of which common high explosive it is. This is a bloody lot, but a nuke is not required, and in fact, Operation Sailor Hat involved using 450 ton charges of neatly stacked bars to study effects of a nuclear explosion shockwave on ships.

But then Ep7 goes on to mention that these are actually munitions stored for the defence of Japan, (presumably, Operation Ketsugo) which would produce lots of engineering problems as it would need to go up more or less all at once, (hard to do if you actually plan to use them as munitions at any point in time) or fail to produce the crater described.

In 1947, the UK blew up something like 4000 tons of munitions (PR sources say 6800, scientific articles detailing seismic effects of the explosion say 4000) on Heligoland island, which actually split a smaller island off it. Even though they did prepare it carefully, the amount of unexploded stuff was problematic for the German government when they got the island back.

Aha, found a video.

The other problem is that the shockwave would be unlikely to leave Kuwadorian standing even if it is protected by a mountain.
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Old 2010-09-04, 11:29   Link #17211
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In other words musouka you decide to trust Bern rather than Battler and Will.

You say that Battler lied and I say that Bern lied. You provide a reason as to why Battler would lie and I can provide an equally valid reason as to why Bern lied.

This is not a matter of believing in the author, you believe in Bern, plain and simple. You believe that Bern's story is more credible than what Will and Battler said.

What you consider "crystal clear" is the exact opposite to me. From what I read it is crystal clear that Bern is merely taking advantage of a catbox to shove her "truth" on us.


I'm sorry but in my opinion you are making a terrible mistake. Bern is the villain in this story, there's no way she'll win. Also we have an undeniable proof that she tried to make an outright lie pass as the truth in the past. Why the hell you trust her so much?


Quote:
Also, I'd like to know where does the 1km wide crater was predicted from, and where did the map come from?
The map comes from the anime. it doesn't matter if it's the right shape or not. I used the image simply to give a visual idea of what kind of damage was to be expected from the Rokkenjima incident. Since the distance between the Mansion and the Kuwadorian is 2km, my prediction was incredibly accurate.

Now if then it is actually a bomb that caused that crater then I was totally wrong, but at the very least I understood precisely the kind of damage that was produced, and you need to admit that given that, it's almost impossible to explain how it could have been a bomb. 900tons of explosive are an incredibly unlikely scenario even for Kinzo.

As to how I arrived to such a conclusion. Several hints put together. I knew that the Mansion, the Guesthouse, the chapel, and he port were all gone, this could be understood by several elements. Then considered fact that bodies disappeared without any trace (and that was accepted as normal), Eva was found very far from the explosion when you'd normally think she would go to the site if anything to cry over the place where her loved ones died. Lastly the anime really gave it away, Ryuukishi must have told them what happened on Rokkenjima and Deen hasn't been very subtle about it.
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Old 2010-09-04, 11:48   Link #17212
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In other words musouka you decide to trust Bern rather than Battler and Will.
No, I'm afraid not. I just read what they said and observed what they did. Do you honestly think that Will would have just not bothered to show up, or said "Whoa, shit, this is the truth? Man, you're out of luck, Lyon! Bye!" either way? That's what I mean when I say that truth or fiction ultimately has no say in Will's denials and fighting.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
You say that Battler lied and I say that Bern lied. You provide a reason as to why Battler would lie and I can provide an equally valid reason as to why Bern lied.
I just said that I didn't believe that Battler lied. And I don't. He will provide another perspective. Meanwhile, I would love to see a valid reason for Bern to lie. No one has given a good one.

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I'm sorry but in my opinion you are making a terrible mistake. Bern is the villain in this story, there's no way she'll win. Also we have an undeniable proof that she tried to make an outright lie pass as the truth in the past. Why the hell you trust her so much?
Yeah, because all I've been saying is that Bern will be the victor at the end, am I right?

Bern omitted the truth in order to corner Beatrice. But she always prefers to use truth to actually hurt people. Remember that scene where she stripped away Natsuhi's inner dream of Kinzo actually caring about her? Do you think that would have been as effective if it wasn't true? If we have scenes where she's lied--in order to get an outcome she wants--we also have scenes where she has been brutal about the truth--to hurt people in the most effective way possible.

I don't trust her to be good. I don't even trust her to be "trustworthy". I just trust that her goals and methods are consistent, and once you've identified those, everything falls into place in terms of what you can believe from her and what you can't.

I don't believe Bern will win. I don't want Bern to win. I believe in Will, who died for concept of a happy end. And I believe in Battler, who has love to see and understand people in a way he didn't used to.
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Old 2010-09-04, 12:04   Link #17213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I'm sorry but in my opinion you are making a terrible mistake. Bern is the villain in this story, there's no way she'll win. Also we have an undeniable proof that she tried to make an outright lie pass as the truth in the past. Why the hell you trust her so much?
I think nobody here wants to believe in Bern's side over Battler's side.
The only place I'm partly on her side is when she said that she won't allow a happy ending...I definitely don't want a solution where somehow they are still alive through some cosmic coincidence...but that's another story.

And I still stand by my oppinion: Bern never lied.
She twisted the truth ny omitting important details, so that we get a warped perspective of what actually is going on, but she never lied.
For example the often used Kinzo example. Where did she lie? She said that, because Kinzo could neither be here nor there, the only place he could exist was in Natsuhi's bed. That is no lie, that is just a theory that is valid as long as Natsuhi does not try to disprove it.
Bern does take advantage of the fact that nobody on the island is telling the truth, yes. But I remember not one scene where she lied.

Battler actually did the same things during the first 4 Episodes. He took random details and twisted them around so much, that he could somehow use it as an argument against the witch...which brought him into a tight spot again. Still we don't suddenly start questioning the integrity of the whole first 4 games and label them as a giant troll.

By now I prefer to see the Tea Party as a kind of counter thesis towards Episode 3. Basically it is doing the same that was done back then, it singles out a certain party (back then it was Eva and Hideyoshi, now it's Kyrie and Rudolph) and frames them as the main culprit. What we have to find out now is how it was possible to construct that theory without violating the basics of the game and how that can fit concerning that there is still only 1 future.
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Old 2010-09-04, 12:08   Link #17214
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Originally Posted by musouka View Post
Bern omitted the truth in order to corner Beatrice. But she always prefers to use truth to actually hurt people. Remember that scene where she stripped away Natsuhi's inner dream of Kinzo actually caring about her? Do you think that would have been as effective if it wasn't true? If we have scenes where she's lied--in order to get an outcome she wants--we also have scenes where she has been brutal about the truth--to hurt people in the most effective way possible.
Bern uses the truths that she has. However, she lacks access to a very large array of information by her own admission.

Her "truth" is also entirely within question. She can claim, at best, a truth of observation, and where that observation can be misread, she can spin an entire array of interpretations intentionally designed to strip context and subtext from any explanation she offers. Her level of truth has risen to half-truth so often from ep4 on that she makes Lambdadelta look credible and trustworthy. And that's pretty crazy, frankly, because Lambda's nuts (or... is she).
Quote:
I don't trust her to be good. I don't even trust her to be "trustworthy". I just trust that her goals and methods are consistent, and once you've identified those, everything falls into place in terms of what you can believe from her and what you can't.
You are right about one thing.

Bernkastel has had a consistent goal and method from the start.

Her goal is "to relieve her own boredom" and her method is "whatever will do that." That was more or less the first claim of motive she ever made, and read this way her behavior remains completely consistent. It also makes her completely untrustworthy because she has no motive-driven reason to do anything that would lead her back to boredom. An unfiltered, unmanipulated truth even of the basic facts risks popping open the cat box and leaving the whole thing settled, which means she'd have nothing left to do. And Battler isn't even here to gloat to yet, so that entire theatrical charade seems to have been mostly for the benefit of Lyon, Ange, and Will.

And note: Normally, the suffering of others pisses Battler off mightily. But instead, we have the epilogue where he's almost beatifically serene. Little-Ange basically summarizes what just happened, and:
  • None of it surprises Battler, suggesting he already knows about it or was observing it somehow.
  • He isn't mad at anyone the way he always is when somebody makes other people suffer.
  • He offers a different story and declares it to be a "good" one (inasmuch as it isn't bad/sad/scary).
This does not speak to me of a person who is pissed and scrambling in the middle of a duel to the death, trying to find a final shot to counter a near-mortal wound (which this sort of "truth" might well be). This suggests, to me, a person with a full clip facing down an opponent whose gun is empty. He could take the final shot at any point, he just has something to say first.
Quote:
I don't believe Bern will win. I don't want Bern to win. I believe in Will, who died for concept of a happy end. And I believe in Battler, who has love to see and understand people in a way he didn't used to.
I don't see no dead Will yet. Oh, sure, she knocked their pieces down on the board, but to paraphrase a certain glasses-wearing, mustard-suited demon king, they're just pieces.
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Old 2010-09-04, 12:28   Link #17215
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I wonder, though, if this isn't a sad/painful story, then are we supposed to believe no one died? Because, otherwise, I really fail to see how it wouldn't be a sad/painful story.

If the Rokkenjima incident indeed took place, and most of them died, for this to count as a mystery, I believe, there should be a culprit. I honestly cannot see how a mystery can come down to a mere accident - but well, perhaps I'm wrong and our genre-savvys can enlighten me. Anyway, if there's a culprit, then that'd person would be someone close to the family. That'd still count as a painful/sad story, wouldn't it?
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Old 2010-09-04, 12:28   Link #17216
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Originally Posted by musouka View Post
No, I'm afraid not. I just read what they said and observed what they did. Do you honestly think that Will would have just not bothered to show up, or said "Whoa, shit, this is the truth? Man, you're out of luck, Lyon! Bye!" either way? That's what I mean when I say that truth or fiction ultimately has no say in Will's denials and fighting.
Maybe this will shock you, but in this game people lie, and a whole scene shown to you could be a complete and total lie. So simply accepting that everything that is shown to you is the truth isn't the right approach in this game.

You are suggesting that Will tried to save Lion by telling him a lie, sorry but that's BS. He definitely told Bern that her "truth" was just fantasy, it wasn't just to save Lion he definitely believed it.

Try to read again the kind of answer Bern provided to Will, was it convincing? I don't think so. As Will said, there are no proofs. If Bern's point is that Rokkenjima is a catbox I don't really think she has the truth on her side.


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Originally Posted by musouka View Post
Bern omitted the truth in order to corner Beatrice. But she always prefers to use truth to actually hurt people. Remember that scene where she stripped away Natsuhi's inner dream of Kinzo actually caring about her? Do you think that would have been as effective if it wasn't true? If we have scenes where she's lied--in order to get an outcome she wants--we also have scenes where she has been brutal about the truth--to hurt people in the most effective way possible.
Good point. Were Bern's truths denied when they were actually the truth? No.
No matter how much a truth Bern says is cruel, if it's the truth it isn't denied.
Will never denied the harsh truths that were said during the regular game, and don't tell me that none of them were cruel. There were a lot of cruel truths there especially for Lion, but Will never once denied them.
And did Will try to save Claire? No, he killed her, because that was the truth.
Will never showed once to deny the truth, even when there were terrible truths. So when he tells that something is false you can be sure it's false.

As for Bern, she didn't simply use the truth for her evil ends, she outright lied. In EP5 she even forged a ton of documents stating that Natsuhi was the culprit and making up an incredibly false story about her and her motive.
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Old 2010-09-04, 12:45   Link #17217
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Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
I wonder, though, if this isn't a sad/painful story, then are we supposed to believe no one died? Because, otherwise, I really fail to see how it wouldn't be a sad/painful story.

If the Rokkenjima incident indeed took place, and most of them died, for this to count as a mystery, I believe, there should be a culprit. I honestly cannot see how a mystery can come down to a mere accident - but well, perhaps I'm wrong and our genre-savvys can enlighten me. Anyway, if there's a culprit, then that'd person would be someone close to the family. That'd still count as a painful/sad story, wouldn't it?
Well if really everybody should somehow survive, the future is changed or absolutely different from what we saw, then I would call it a lackluster ending.

Many people are questioning how it can have a not sad/painful plot and yet be a murder mystery. But it is possible concerning how you define those two points.
Bernkastel for example is an evil witch, so she always looks at things from the negative perspective. Every negative makes it 'more negative' for her and every good only 'less negative', but as long as people die it is 'negative' for her, so her claim that 'she won't allow a happy ending' can be true.
Battler looks at it from the perspective of love and every little piece of love makes the story a little bit more 'happy'. So even if only Ange is able to live with what happened in the end and is able to see that there were no 'inerently evil people' among the ones she loved, then it can be considered a story that is 'not sad'.

But I think that's a thing of perspective and by now I believe that only a part of the Umineko fanbase will actually like the ending. Either the mystery fans are dissappointed because the expected result changed or the character fans are dissappointed because their beloved characters don't get a happy ending.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
As for Bern, she didn't simply use the truth for her evil ends, she outright lied. In EP5 she even forged a ton of documents stating that Natsuhi was the culprit and making up an incredibly false story about her and her motive.
What documents did she fake in EP5?! Am I remember anything wrong? Because she was not the GM of EP5 she should have no influence on what appeared in that Episode in the first place. If I fail to remember any of those documents then please enlighten me.
And she didn't make up an incredibly false story, she constructed an incredibly wrong theory with the truth that the characters were willing to give her and which gave her ample chance to win at what Erika said she wanted to do: Find a culprit! What she did was no better and no worse, than Kyrie/Rudolph framing Hideyoshi (EP3), Eva-culprit (EP3), smallbombs or any other theory that came from Battler.

I'm not saying we should believe everything she says at face value, but I think we should give her more credit than assuming that she's dumb enough to just make up something.
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Old 2010-09-04, 12:50   Link #17218
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Originally Posted by chounokoe View Post
What documents did she fake in EP5?! Am I remember anything wrong? Because she was not the GM of EP5 she should have no influence on what appeared in that Episode in the first place. If I fail to remember any of those documents then please enlighten me.
And she didn't make up an incredibly false story, she constructed an incredibly wrong theory with the truth that the characters were willing to give her and which gave her ample chance to win at what Erika said she wanted to do: Find a culprit! What she did was no better and no worse, than Kyrie/Rudolph framing Hideyoshi (EP3), Eva-culprit (EP3), smallbombs or any other theory that came from Battler.

I'm not saying we should believe everything she says at face value, but I think we should give her more credit than assuming that she's dumb enough to just make up something.
Reread the main game. At the end of trial there is a scene where we read the court documents. And they claim things as fact that are not. Like that Natsuhi deceived Kinzo with her feminine charms and that Natsuhi is Beatrice. As well as many other things that are simply not true.

and if you read that game you really get the impression that Lambda is in the back seat in that episode. Bern and Erika seem to be running the entire show.

EDIT: Oh and Bern didn't just want Erika to "find the culprit". She ordered Erika to go back and prove that Natsuhi was the culprit of each game. Of course proving someone is the culprit in each game doesn't matter if they're not in any game, but Bern didn't care. She just wants to end the game in the way most entertaining for her. It doesn't matter who she blames as long as she gets what she wants.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-09-04 at 13:08.
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Old 2010-09-04, 12:51   Link #17219
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Well, Battler made some very curious statements there. He certainly didn't say "I am going to give you the actual truth and it's going to be a happy ending." So I certainly wouldn't be going so far as to claim that's what he's going to present, because even he doesn't seem confident enough to say such a thing.
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Old 2010-09-04, 12:52   Link #17220
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Originally Posted by chounokoe View Post

What documents did she fake in EP5?! Am I remember anything wrong? Because she was not the GM of EP5 she should have no influence on what appeared in that Episode in the first place. If I fail to remember any of those documents then please enlighten me.
Read the last chapter of EP5. Many of those documents are signed by Bern.
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