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Old 2010-09-06, 10:58   Link #17321
Steampunk Librarian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
according to ep.7. the stakes are the servants

Mamon=Manon
Belphegor=Berune
Leviathan=Renon
Asmodeus=Asune

and other stakes may correspond to other servants we haven't seen. (also note that 音 can be read as -on, -non, or -ne)
I guess it could be that they are based on servants Maria and Yasu-Beatrice have seen. Its just Maria has a very particular way of viewing people in her head that makes Yasu the witch Beatrice, Genji into Ronove (assumed) and Kumasawa into Virgillia/Old-Beatrice. But idk, the servants thing might be appropriate since they call themselves furniture and so goes Genji who leads them.


edit:
I just remembered something. I remember that Genji, Kumasawa and possibly Shannon and Kanon are considered Kinzo's spies by Krauss (and Natsuhi?), thus is why they apparently trust Gohda more, since they are the ones who hired him. I was wondering if it would somehow be possible that Krauss and Natsuhi know of Yasu's existence and know that she is now the new head (the new Kinzo)? Of course, that would involve Yasu allowing them to keep embezzling from Kinzo so that at the next family meeting she could make her move while Genji, Kanon and Kumasawa are ready to serve her as the new head. I don't know. Just kicking the can lol
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Old 2010-09-06, 11:03   Link #17322
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Steampunk Librarian View Post
I guess it could be that they are based on servants Maria and Yasu-Beatrice have seen.
Only, Yasu saw them all, but Maria was barely even born when half of the entire list quit.
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Old 2010-09-06, 11:03   Link #17323
Sentou
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Originally Posted by Helmet-kun View Post
Well, considering how well things turned out for her during episodes...1-7, it's not surprising. In fact, the whole 'head family' is usually kicked around, what with the gold and all.

It's just how karma works.
Jessica being the victim of karma? She's completely innocent! Not her fault that her mother and love interest are both COMPLETELY INSANE!

My biggest fear is that she's dead for real. I mean, hell, it already hurts that Maria is permanently dead, but Jessica is just the nail in the coffin. An innocent character dying for no good reason, and all because she trusted her friends and family. That's pretty goddamn sad.
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Old 2010-09-06, 11:04   Link #17324
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
according to ep.7. the stakes are the servants

Mamon=Manon
Belphegor=Berune
Leviathan=Renon
Asmodeus=Asune

and other stakes may correspond to other servants we haven't seen. (also note that 音 can be read as -on, -non, or -ne)

also, I'm pretty sure I've seen Satan's sprite as a servant, though her name wasn't given or I forgot. It may or may not be Shannon.
I'm pretty sure that Mammon and Leviathan weren't named at all.
And as I mentioned before: it is impossible for them to be Manon and Renon, because they were serving the Ushiromiya around 1967.
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Old 2010-09-06, 11:05   Link #17325
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I don't think Satan servants name is mentioned from what I've heard either, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's revealed that it was left as it is with the stake's name since it does have an 'on' sound at the end.

alternatively if it has an 'on' at the end it could sound like SUH-ton or SEH-ton
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Old 2010-09-06, 11:06   Link #17326
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Originally Posted by Steampunk Librarian View Post
I sort of wonder about another angle this could take, because it seems out of place for Yasu-Shannon to go around killing people. I'm wondering if her play as Beatrice was some kind of trick she wanted to play on the adults so that by way X she could get closer to Battler. Somehow that trick goes wrong by adult X realizing/finding out who Beatrice really is, thus she becomes an unwilling accomplice to murder. Adult X could be Kyrie for all intents and purposes, since she is the smartest out of the bunch. Kyrie, wanting to take advantage of Beatrice's game with the other adults, sets out to murder the others knowing that if they figure out who Beatrice is (Shannon), they will stop looking for the true culprit?
Considering the scene in EP2 with Beatrice and the adults and EP4 as a whole, I'd rather say that Beatrice got all the adults on her side, and the intended victims for her "pranks" are in fact the cousins.

Since a great effort in EP7 was made to tell us that understanding the culprit motive is to understand the culprit's hearth, I think that Yasu probably created all of this to see who among the cousins would solve the mysteries she created and who by extensions would be able to fully understand her heart. The one who could achieve this "miracle" would be the person she'd choose to become her partner.
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Old 2010-09-06, 11:10   Link #17327
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Originally Posted by Sentou View Post
Jessica being the victim of karma? She's completely innocent! Not her fault that her mother and love interest are both COMPLETELY INSANE!

My biggest fear is that she's dead for real. I mean, hell, it already hurts that Maria is permanently dead, but Jessica is just the nail in the coffin. An innocent character dying for no good reason, and all because she trusted her friends and family. That's pretty goddamn sad.
So long as there's no contradiction with the evidence, Meta-Battler could still have almost everyone escape into a fantasy world after cornering the murderer. That would give us a bittersweet ending where only one or two people come back to Ange, but she'd still have hope that everyone else is alive somewhere.
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Old 2010-09-06, 11:15   Link #17328
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
So long as there's no contradiction with the evidence, Meta-Battler could still have almost everyone escape into a fantasy world after cornering the murderer. That would give us a bittersweet ending where only one or two people come back to Ange, but she'd still have hope that everyone else is alive somewhere.
I don't like that type of ending. It's not really, you know, true. Delusions are what caused all of this mess in the first place, from Kinzo's delusions towards his daughter, Natsuhi's delusions about the adopted child, and Yasu's delusions in general.

Jessica's "good" ending is getting to be with a persona of a person that doesn't really love her, and in fact, has plotted her death? Nah, it doesn't sit well with me, it's actually quite horrifying.
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Old 2010-09-06, 11:19   Link #17329
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Originally Posted by Sentou View Post
Jessica being the victim of karma? She's completely innocent!
Yes, because killing Kyrie OUT OF LURVE FOR KANON during EP6 is completely dismissible. She also beat the crap out of her classmates (...Anime Only?) when they embarrassed her in front of Kanon.

Here's a theory: What if the whole entire gameboard also works as a double for purgatory for, well, everyone? If you take the end of EP2 seriously, Rosa was going through Greed (the gold, which she drops), Gluttony (The banquet), and Lust (...Maria's little dialogue)?
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Old 2010-09-06, 11:21   Link #17330
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Originally Posted by Sentou View Post
I don't like that type of ending. It's not really, you know, true. Delusions are what caused all of this mess in the first place, from Kinzo's delusions towards his daughter, Natsuhi's delusions about the adopted child, and Yasu's delusions in general.

Jessica's "good" ending is getting to be with a persona of a person that doesn't really love her, and in fact, has plotted her death? Nah, it doesn't sit well with me, it's actually quite horrifying.
Well, Rokkenjima is a cat box full of fiction. Why is a mystery where something horrible happens to Jessica and then she dies a more valid story than a fantasy where she's heroic and gets a happy ending somewhere? I think that's kind of the point of Umineko, in the end; you can't just dismiss fantasies as lies and delusions. They're proper worlds of their own.
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Old 2010-09-06, 11:22   Link #17331
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Originally Posted by Helmet-kun View Post
Yes, because killing Kyrie OUT OF LURVE FOR KANON during EP6 is completely dismissible. She also beat the crap out of her classmates (...Anime Only?) when they embarrassed her in front of Kanon.
Kyrie didn't die because of her though, and Jessica was sort of demon possessed at the time. Showing that she wouldn't murder someone unless it was against her will. That's consistent with episode 4 where she imagines every possible future where she killed someone and saw herself as growing to be a bitter and hateful person.

So yeah most of everything says Jessica's innocent. She's just a bit of a Banchou at school though.
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Old 2010-09-06, 11:28   Link #17332
Sentou
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Well, Rokkenjima is a cat box full of fiction. Why is a mystery where something horrible happens to Jessica and then she dies a more valid story than a fantasy where she's heroic and gets a happy ending somewhere? I think that's kind of the point of Umineko, in the end; you can't just dismiss fantasies as lies and delusions. They're proper worlds of their own.
I disagree, if only because of the nature of the game. Pieces not being able to act against their nature, Beatrice having the entire game be a riddle, all of this hints towards a truth. While the claim that demons blew up the island with magic may be just as truthful as the claim that Kyrie and Rudolf set up as shooting gallery, it is not the actual truth. Even if the box never gets opened, that doesn't change the fact that the cat is objectively either alive or dead. The truth doesn't change based on people's perceptions of it.

If everything was true, then there is no point to Umineko. We play this game to reach the truth of, if not all the events specifically, at least the truth of Beatrice and her motivations.

But that's not my major point. Even if magic exists and every dead person gets revived, it's only an esoterically good end. George, Jessica, hell, even Battler, they all get to be with a shade of a person. That's a bit discomforting.
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Old 2010-09-06, 11:33   Link #17333
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Even by Umineko's magic standards there are limits. Without a body there is no chance of revival and thinking Ange's hair ornaments will be enough is naive. Being bombed like they are is basically the same as cremating the bodies, which prevents revival magic. So basically the only chance of them reviving is the method X of miraculous survival and that obviously can't save everyone.
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Old 2010-09-06, 11:46   Link #17334
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Hum...it's just me or nobody noticed that the games where Kanon's corpse is not found are the same where a suit-Beato appears ?
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Old 2010-09-06, 13:41   Link #17335
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Originally Posted by Sentou View Post
Jessica being the victim of karma? She's completely innocent! Not her fault that her mother and love interest are both COMPLETELY INSANE!

My biggest fear is that she's dead for real. I mean, hell, it already hurts that Maria is permanently dead, but Jessica is just the nail in the coffin. An innocent character dying for no good reason, and all because she trusted her friends and family. That's pretty goddamn sad.
Personally I can live with everyone being dead, so long as the mystery gets solved. I'm more of a mystery person than a characters person. Dine>Raymond!

And it seems like even Double Shkanon can't get rid of Shannon's massive breasts. They are the biggest puzzle in the series.
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Old 2010-09-06, 13:52   Link #17336
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Originally Posted by Will Wright View Post
Personally I can live with everyone being dead, so long as the mystery gets solved. I'm more of a mystery person than a characters person. Dine>Raymond!

And it seems like even Double Shkanon can't get rid of Shannon's massive breasts. They are the biggest puzzle in the series.
I refuse to acknowledge the possibility that Shannon stuffs her bra. Utterly.

I still chalk the ambiguity up to Ryukishi Drawing, as far as Kanon's lack of a chest goes. Meh.
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Old 2010-09-06, 13:55   Link #17337
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Originally Posted by Will Wright View Post
Personally I can live with everyone being dead, so long as the mystery gets solved. I'm more of a mystery person than a characters person. Dine>Raymond!

And it seems like even Double Shkanon can't get rid of Shannon's massive breasts. They are the biggest puzzle in the series.
Obviously the 900tons of explosive are packed in Shannon's bra.
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Old 2010-09-06, 13:57   Link #17338
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Obviously the 900tons of explosive are packed in Shannon's bra.
This is just crazy enough to be true! O_O
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Old 2010-09-06, 14:02   Link #17339
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Obviously the 900tons of explosive are packed in Shannon's bra.
So the truth of the explosion is that Battler really did wind up getting to grope Shannon?
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Old 2010-09-06, 14:07   Link #17340
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Originally Posted by jan-poo View Post
obviously the 900tons of explosive are packed in shannon's bra.
DEM small bombs
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