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Old 2010-09-06, 15:15   Link #17341
Leafsnail
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Yeah, I did consider that Shannon stuffed her bra with objects actually seen in show. But unless it's candy, pumpkins, flowers or bombs (hmm, source of the explosion?), I can't think of anything.
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Old 2010-09-06, 15:17   Link #17342
TehChron
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
Yeah, I did consider that Shannon stuffed her bra with objects actually seen in show. But unless it's candy, pumpkins, flowers or bombs (hmm, source of the explosion?), I can't think of anything.
Why not gold?
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Old 2010-09-06, 15:22   Link #17343
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Oh yeah! That'd explain the reinforced titanium bra they find...
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Old 2010-09-06, 15:54   Link #17344
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Obviously the 900tons of explosive are packed in Shannon's bra.
... WHY? Nevermind how, but...Why would Shannon stuff 900 tons of explosives in her bra?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Will Wright View Post
And it seems like even Double Shkanon can't get rid of Shannon's massive breasts. They are the biggest puzzle in the series.
There is a perfectly logical explanation that doesn't involve double Shkanon, Shkanontrice, and Yasu. After all, if R07 denies this, then there should be something we'd be able to fall back on. The is no 'single' answer, so long as the cat box stays closed.

Also, I'm a bit confused: Are the 'Golden Witch' and the 'Endless Witch' two entirely separate titles? Why is it the Eva-Beato only inherits one of them?
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Old 2010-09-06, 15:58   Link #17345
TehChron
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Helmet-kun View Post
... WHY? Nevermind how, but...Why would Shannon stuff 900 tons of explosives in her bra?
Why not? With the Devil's Proof its impossible to prove she didn't.


Quote:
There is a perfectly logical explanation that doesn't involve double Shkanon, Shkanontrice, and Yasu. After all, if R07 denies this, then there should be something we'd be able to fall back on. The is no 'single' answer, so long as the cat box stays closed.
Then let's figure it out.
Quote:
Also, I'm a bit confused: Are the 'Golden Witch' and the 'Endless Witch' two entirely separate titles? Why is it the Eva-Beato only inherits one of them?
They are two separate titles. There's a tip in Episode 2 or 3 that explains that, I think. As for why? Probably so Beato can maintain some leverage so she can pull off her "North Wind and the Sun" strategy.
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Old 2010-09-06, 16:06   Link #17346
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Originally Posted by Sentou View Post
I disagree, if only because of the nature of the game. Pieces not being able to act against their nature, Beatrice having the entire game be a riddle, all of this hints towards a truth. While the claim that demons blew up the island with magic may be just as truthful as the claim that Kyrie and Rudolf set up as shooting gallery, it is not the actual truth. Even if the box never gets opened, that doesn't change the fact that the cat is objectively either alive or dead. The truth doesn't change based on people's perceptions of it.
Objective truth? Which one? By means of the red, we've been presented with a full seven of them at this point, and they all contradict each other about what happened. There are only two places that they all overlap each other. One is the truth that held at the moment Beatrice's cat box snapped shut on October 4th, and the other is that on October 6th, no information about what happened escaped. Between those two endpoints, not just the seven worlds we saw, but an infinite number of "objective" truths exist. That's exactly the magic of unobserved processes that we've been told about.

As far as I can tell, trying to figure out which of those infinite possible worlds is "real" is a fool's errand, because they're all real. The important thing is that initial state that held when the cat box closed, because that's what constrains the behavior of the characters and identifies the culprit. And as long as a possible world is consistent with that initial state and doesn't break open the cat box, whether it does or doesn't have fantasy elements in it is completely irrelevant. We get a corresponding fragment in either case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentou
If everything was true, then there is no point to Umineko. We play this game to reach the truth of, if not all the events specifically, at least the truth of Beatrice and her motivations.
A lot of the fantasies Beato showed can't be true due to one contradiction or another, so they wouldn't create a problem to begin with.

Besides that, even if fantasies are added to the sea of fragments, that doesn't make it impossible to reach the starting conditions. Among all of the mystery fragments, there are certainly an infinite number that don't present enough hints, but Beato carefully selected a handful that did so she could make the mystery solvable for Battler. That task doesn't change no matter what fragments are available. In fact, if she had shoved a true fantasy fragment in Battler's face before EP5, she would have stalemated anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentou
But that's not my major point. Even if magic exists and every dead person gets revived, it's only an esoterically good end. George, Jessica, hell, even Battler, they all get to be with a shade of a person. That's a bit discomforting.
I think it comes down to whether you consider pieces to be real people or not. And if you don't, why does it matter what happens to the family at all? They're just pieces, right?
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Old 2010-09-06, 16:11   Link #17347
Marion
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Obviously the 900tons of explosive are packed in Shannon's bra.
That explains the boob missiles Kanon mention in one of the anime previews

As for the previous topic on Jessica, I just can't see her as a villain and I can't see why people try to demonize her. George I can see because he does act like a smug jerk. But Jessica has only been shown that way once and it was made clear that she was being possessed by the power of Zepar and Furfur's enhancements. In EP 6 she was the one asking the big question "why can't both couples be together" while George was just going along with it.

Every piece of evidence of her being evil is circumstantial at best. Like I said, George I can understand why people think he's a culprit. But considering how close the game is to the end I feel like people need to drop it.
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Old 2010-09-06, 16:11   Link #17348
Rattan
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I thought that she got the 'Endless Witch' from learning magic or being taught by Kumasawa and got 'Golden Witch' when she found the gold?

And I thought Eva-Beato inherited both? From what I read I mean...
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Old 2010-09-06, 16:23   Link #17349
Oliver
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
I think it comes down to whether you consider pieces to be real people or not. And if you don't, why does it matter what happens to the family at all? They're just pieces, right?
They're characters. In a fiction within a fiction. And I think I can prove it in a strict logical fashion, or at least very close to strictly. Here's the logic:
  1. Beatrice's final red of Ep4 is true.
  2. Her statement I will kill you refers to a future event. But if we formulate it as the equivalent "Battler will not be alive in a few minutes", like in the paradox of the sea battle, Battler has never been alive. But it's obvious that he was, unless we're going to scrap pretty much the entire story.
  3. Since red text that denotes absolute literal truth exists, Aristotle's own solution to the paradox does not apply. Leibniz's does. The only way it is possible for any entity to utter a true future statement and know it is true in an absolute fashion, is if it is a higher order entity than the one the statement refers to.
  4. But that would mean that Beatrice is a witch, which makes attempting to beat her in any fashion completely pointless and Battler can't win.
  5. Our only other option is to accept the middle ground, that the gameboard is fiction within Umineko, the bigger fiction.
Will Wright (the poster) also commented when shown that, that it is possible for Beatrice to be a higher order entity (a witch) while she is strictly outside the human world, and for her statement to refer to an alternate reality of some kind, which wouldn't contradict our winning condition of witches not existing in the human world.
But if Beatrice is a higher order entity, she can't affect the real world Battler comes from (otherwise we still can't win) even if she can affect other realities, and the situation is still structurally equivalent to the gameboard world not being of the same kind as the world Meta-Battler comes from.

That is, being fiction within fiction.
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Old 2010-09-06, 16:23   Link #17350
Helmet-kun
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Originally Posted by TehChron View Post
Why not? With the Devil's Proof its impossible to prove she didn't.
I'm not asking you to prove it exists, nor am I denying it. I'm just asking for a logical explanation as to why it could be true. If there's no logical reason for it, then it's just an assumption.

In short, Episode 7 lesson: Why?
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Old 2010-09-06, 16:28   Link #17351
Leafsnail
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Originally Posted by Helmet-kun View Post
I'm not asking you to prove it exists, nor am I denying it. I'm just asking for a logical explanation as to why it could be true. If there's no logical reason for it, then it's just an assumption.

In short, Episode 7 lesson: Why?
Quick and easy access?
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Old 2010-09-06, 16:46   Link #17352
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by Helmet-kun View Post
... WHY? Nevermind how, but...Why would Shannon stuff 900 tons of explosives in her bra?
You do know that that was a joke right?

And I think the "how" is a bigger issue here, you'd have to defy at least two laws of physic here to make it work. While the why can always be explained with insanity or a suicidal death wish (which Shannon is confirmed to have).

In fact does it make any difference where you place 900tons of explosives? It's not like it's any safer to have them under your feet.


Quote:
Our only other option is to accept the middle ground, that the gameboard is fiction within Umineko, the bigger fiction.
quoted for truth!
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Old 2010-09-06, 16:47   Link #17353
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Helmet-kun View Post
I'm not asking you to prove it exists, nor am I denying it. I'm just asking for a logical explanation as to why it could be true. If there's no logical reason for it, then it's just an assumption.
I'm pretty sure everyone was kidding. No one who is sane would actually believe Shannon's breasts are, in reality, 900tons of explosives.

At least, I know I was joking.
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Old 2010-09-06, 16:52   Link #17354
Will Wright
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
They're characters. In a fiction within a fiction. And I think I can prove it in a strict logical fashion, or at least very close to strictly. Here's the logic:
  1. Beatrice's final red of Ep4 is true.
  2. Her statement I will kill you refers to a future event. But if we formulate it as the equivalent "Battler will not be alive in a few minutes", like in the paradox of the sea battle, Battler has never been alive. But it's obvious that he was, unless we're going to scrap pretty much the entire story.
  3. Since red text that denotes absolute literal truth exists, Aristotle's own solution to the paradox does not apply. Leibniz's does. The only way it is possible for any entity to utter a true future statement and know it is true in an absolute fashion, is if it is a higher order entity than the one the statement refers to.
  4. But that would mean that Beatrice is a witch, which makes attempting to beat her in any fashion completely pointless and Battler can't win.
  5. Our only other option is to accept the middle ground, that the gameboard is fiction within Umineko, the bigger fiction.
Will Wright (the poster) also commented when shown that, that it is possible for Beatrice to be a higher order entity (a witch) while she is strictly outside the human world, and for her statement to refer to an alternate reality of some kind, which wouldn't contradict our winning condition of witches not existing in the human world.
But if Beatrice is a higher order entity, she can't affect the real world Battler comes from (otherwise we still can't win) even if she can affect other realities, and the situation is still structurally equivalent to the gameboard world not being of the same kind as the world Meta-Battler comes from.

That is, being fiction within fiction.
Note that Battler doesn't deny that Beatrice is a witch, he merely denies that she uses magic. If Beatrice's "piece" were to act in a way completely justifiable by humans(her commands merely happening to coincide with what the person she calls her piece is doing for example) then it could still be possible, though improbable, to assume that the work is not entirely fiction.

That said, I believe that the game boards are fiction. It makes sense for the "games" to be a metaphor for fiction.
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Old 2010-09-06, 17:01   Link #17355
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
quoted for truth!
This comes about as close to strict proof for the Author Theory as it can get, actually. Most importantly, a few interesting conclusions from this follow:
  • Individual episodes can be individual fictional texts, since they're a fictional text in the first place, so what stops them from being multiple independent ones. Which means that culprits in them don't have to match even if they follow Dine. It's an open question whether detectives have to match, for that matter.
  • In no case anyone on the gameboard has an "aha" moment saying that 'I solved the case!'. Which basically means that they don't have to be Knox-complete or Dine-complete by themselves even if they do follow the rules. They're simply unfinished.
  • The detective of the outer fiction is unquestionably Meta-Battler. But the mystery of the outer story is "Who am I?", and not really "Who killed everyone?", it may well be that in the outer story nobody actually died, or, for that matter, existed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Will Wright View Post
Note that Battler doesn't deny that Beatrice is a witch, he merely denies that she uses magic. If Beatrice's "piece" were to act in a way completely justifiable by humans(her commands merely happening to coincide with what the person she calls her piece is doing for example) then it could still be possible, though improbable, to assume that the work is not entirely fiction.
Well, yes. The point is that assuming that part of the events described are fiction within fiction actually produces potentially useful conclusions. It's still possible for Ryukishi to mess everything up without contradicting himself even then.
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Old 2010-09-06, 17:10   Link #17356
Jan-Poo
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The detective of the outer fiction is unquestionably Meta-Battler. But the mystery of the outer story is "Who am I?", and not really "Who killed everyone?", it may well be that in the outer story nobody actually died, or, for that matter, existed.
It's nice to see that someone other than me consider this scenario plausible. I really sense a strong opposition every time I suggest that there might not be any culprit in this story. Everyone seems to want a murderer at all costs, and the bomb idea isn't even good enough, it must be a psycho killer running rampage with a gun or a knife and killing everyone.

I think's that's why Ryuukishi created the tea party of episode7, that was his last chance to give to a vast group of the readers exactly what they expected... but in the most insipid and heartless way possible... As if saying... there you have your psycho killer... happy?
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Old 2010-09-06, 17:20   Link #17357
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
It's nice to see that someone other than me consider this scenario plausible. I really sense a strong opposition every time I suggest that there might not be any culprit in this story. Everyone seems to want a murderer at all costs, and the bomb idea isn't even good enough, it must be a psycho killer running rampage with a gun or a knife and killing everyone.
It all very much depends on whether the scenes describing the life of Ange-1988 are second order fiction, like the gameboards, or first order fiction.

Definition: "First order fiction" is the story of Meta-Battler, which is, to us, fiction. "Second order fiction" is the story of the gameboards that Meta-Battler is reading and reacting to.

Now, if Ange-1998 lives in the second order fiction, Rokkenjima Incident can be fiction through and through, though in that case, the first order fiction is simply not solvable, as nothing remains for us to consider "true" and pinpoint the identity of the author.

If any part of them is first order fiction, some sort of incident has to have happened, (it blew up, remember) but it doesn't have to be murder, and I'm pretty definite survivors exist. (See the logic of message bottles described by Renall previously.)

It is possible for Ange-1998 life story to be a second order fictional account of first order fiction events, then it gets really complicated.
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Old 2010-09-06, 17:32   Link #17358
Jan-Poo
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Logically it should be a first order fiction, but EP6 put everything in jeopardy.

I still prefer to think it's a first order fiction because that would give to this umineko story sense and order. The Rokkenjima 2 days of the incident are a catbox, this concept is clear so inside the catbox infinite possible worlds can exist. But the world of 1998 shouldn't be a catbox.

Also if we don't have a reliable POV from the future it's practically impossible for us to understand what happened in the real Rokkenjima. If such a POV doesn't exist then we can only reason about the games...
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Old 2010-09-06, 18:00   Link #17359
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I still prefer to think it's a first order fiction because that would give to this umineko story sense and order. The Rokkenjima 2 days of the incident are a catbox, this concept is clear so inside the catbox infinite possible worlds can exist. But the world of 1998 shouldn't be a catbox.
Well, if it shouldn't be, here's an idea for you, let's call it Metafictional Author Theory:
  1. As previously shown, accounts of the gameboards can only be second order fiction.
  2. We are assuming here that Ange-1998, or at the very least, most scenes describing her exploits after the miraclous jump from the roof, are first order fiction scenes.
  3. Stories presented in the bottles are very likely to have been written after the incident for the reasons clearly apparent in their presentation and previously described by Renall at length.
  4. The text wants us to believe that the message bottle stories are actually Episodes 1 and 2. Let us presume that they are. (Everyone presumes that anyway.) Do these stories as presented within the first order fiction actually include a meta-narrative thread? There is actually no evidence whatsoever that suggests they do. In fact, there is reason to believe they don't, as meta-narrative includes copious highlighted anachronisms, like referring to the writer that has yet to write his first book in Ep5. If we can find a similar highlighted anachronism in Ep2 meta-narrative, we can consider it proven that meta-narrative is part of the first order fiction as well.
  5. Hachijou explicitly makes references to the words in 'red ink', which means that red text somehow exists. However, imagine a footnote in red in a text, saying that "Everything written in red is true!"... That would be just as audacious as hearing Beatrice actually say it, wouldn't it? Notice also Natsuhi's red in Ep5. Certain phrases spoken in the text from the narrator may actually be in red.
  6. If we accept that, we can interpret the story of Meta-Battler as a true account of his internal state while reading the stories presented to him about Rokkenjima Incident and trying to understand what really happened, if anything. He is the detective and is truthful in recounting his thoughts about the text he is reading. The mystery he is solving is who the author is. It is not yet clear who Meta-Battler is, but he may be the Battler that survived the real Rokkenjima-Prime incident. (Will Wright (the poster) suggested it is because he finds he can't face Ange unless he can tell her the complete true story. It is sort of dubious but makes a lot of narrative sense.) The actual Piece-Battler may or may not be a detective in any given story. My guess is that often he isn't, but that is quite open to argument -- Dlanor's red of Ep5 can be interpreted every which way.
  7. The first order fiction is not a traditional mystery, and may or may not strictly follow any rules... However, it is not without literary precedent. It is very similar to certain Father Brown stories, wherein Father Brown solves mysteries presented to him in stories of times long gone in places far away. The story Meta-Battler is reading is the only information he is really getting.
  8. Meta-Beatrice is the representation of the abstract author of the story inside Meta-Battler's mind. The initial story is an account of a cruel murder, which he believes must be solvable... however, in the end he feels unfullfilled because no solutions have been presented at all. That is when he enters a confrontation with the author as the story engages him on intellectual and emotional level. Meta-Beatrice is used by Meta-Battler internally to represent multiple authors, and is entirely a construct. She changes as Meta-Battler's opinion of who the author is changes. She vanishes in the end, because Meta-Battler realises that the author changed between stories.

Further speculation, which, while not unfounded, is in no way proven, it's mostly an intuitive interpretation:

The stories are actually messages exchanged between the survivors of the incident. I believe there are actually at least three authors, (making it four survivors of the real incident) and Featherinne is not necessarily any of them.
  • The first author is Bottle-Beatrice, whoever she really is, which is not necessarily the same as Beatrice-3. She needs to communicate something of vital personal importance to Battler, (whether because it is her own story or the story she needs to tell to sleep well at night is unknown) but cannot possibly reveal her life or death status or location, or name. She doesn't know Battler's either. It is a very common motive in Japanese romantic fiction where a girl resolves to become internationally famous with the sole purpose of locating a childhood friend that moved away, and the solution Bottle-Beatrice comes to is similar -- publish a story in such a way that would produce the widest possible media coverage, and conceal in it the truth she wants Battler to reach, in a way she hopes only Battler would understand. Bottle-Beatrice does not actually have to know who the culprit is, if the incident on the island actually involved any murders.
  • No response is received to the first two stories. Because not only Battler doesn't understand it yet, Battler's impression from the first two stories is that the author hates his guts. Years later (Ep4 is supposed to have been published in 199 someone else tries again, communicating new information and taking greater liberties with the source information -- they got it, and they think Battler needs to know that too. And they hope he's still alive and reading out there somewhere. They don't know the culprit either, but they have a different idea about it than Bottle-Beatrice did.
  • The third author, responsible for Ep5 is... the surviving culprit. Who actually sees the stories as evidence that someone survived, but cannot be reached. So they introduce a magical detective character, and in a mockery of the original mystery message, use her to frame Natsuhi, using Knox rules as a weapon.
  • That actually gives Battler an epiphany. He now knows who the culprit is. So he writes Ep6 as an open message both to the culprit and the original author(s), "Here, I'm alive, and I know who you both are." squishing Erika into a bloody pulp along the way.
  • Culprit realises they've been found out, and writes Ep7, in which they actually present every true thing they know (and fill out the holes they don't with unfounded speculation) in such a way as to disgrace everyone they can get their hands on.

Something like that.
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Old 2010-09-06, 18:33   Link #17360
Disz
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Ok,so I don't get

1.Why don't the authors know the culprit

and

2.How the culprit is alive.


Oh and,

3.Why are they sending messages to this person without knowing who the culprit is,just to give them a riddle of who they are?

4.I still don't get why the culprit wrote an EP7,or even put all he/she knows.
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