AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2010-09-06, 21:33   Link #17381
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Shannontrice is most definitely the culprit of the second order mystery in my opinion.
Yasu is always the culprit, right?
Plus Will's role was to solve the second order mysteries and he pointed his finger to Yasu. Even in the remote chance that there is another culprit, Will should have at least mentioned him.

I mean the second order mystery was created by Beatrice, she must have set a culprit and Will must have found it. whydunnit, howdunnit and whodunnit!
You can't really solve a mystery without the three of them.


Quote:
Rosa's Beatrice-2 story is fishy like sushi.
I really don't understand all this distrust for Rosa's story. How long do you think Ryuukishi can drag a red herring? this story has endured for 2 long years, it keeps getting confirmed and there has never been any hint to use to debunk it.
__________________

Jan-Poo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-09-06, 21:34   Link #17382
Steampunk Librarian
Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
How the idea that Beatrice actually performed a serial closed room murder as just a roundabout way to claim Battler's love makes more sense?

Beatrice: "Battler you did it! You solved every mystery now we can love each other! Ah and sorry for having killed your father, the mother of your little sister, and all of your cousins but that was necessary for obtaining the miracle of love!!! You're not angry right? You still love me right?"
I'm not of the opinion Beatrice has killed anyone (or is killing on her own accord). I'm of the opinion that Beatrice is separate from the culprit and only that Beatrice has something to do with the mass murders, which includes being an unwilling accomplice.

Like Meta-Beatrice being bullied by Lambda and Bern, I think real Beatrice is suffering the same thing. Ofc, the only proof for that is in the Meta World. I still can't figure out what or who Lambda and Bern are supposed to be.
Steampunk Librarian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-09-06, 21:41   Link #17383
LyricalAura
Dea ex Kakera
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
@Oliver:
Considering the number of lies and performances floating around the game boards, I don't know that you can say they're pure second-order fictions either. They're more like an unknown mixture of second- and third-order fictions that have to be pried apart to make sense of them.
__________________
"Something has fallen on us that falls very seldom on men; perhaps the worst thing that can fall on them. We have found the truth; and the truth makes no sense."
LyricalAura is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-09-06, 21:42   Link #17384
Helmet-kun
Local Crackpot
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Somewhere?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Will Wright View Post
Not everyone. I would be shouting DDDDIIIIINEEEEEEEEEE'S 777777TTTTTTTTTHHHHHHHHHHH GOD FLIPPING DAMN IT and unsatisfied at how there was no bloody murder. I would probably shout a bit, then go drink a cup of tea and relax.

But still, THERE MUST BE A BODY.
Just so you know, if it turns out that Lion really is dead and doesn't show up for episode 8, I'm so torching you first. Followed by the Yasu and Double Shakanon theories. Then that damn Dine's 3.

I have faith in all these characters, I really do. But that's not what I paid for. What I paid for is a satisfying story, whether it be a mystery-satisfying good end (In which someone dies horribly), or a character good end (In which there is no culprit and then there was cake).

What I think he will give us is Beatrice's 'truth'. Which will have a lot of character love and hate, an answer who really created Beato, and will basically exploit Beato's heart, etc., etc. It'll answer the riddle 'Who am I?', but would not go back and actually explain the murders and who committed them.

In short, a billion character lecture on why understanding the heart of the culprit is important, too.
__________________
Helmet-kun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-09-06, 21:49   Link #17385
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steampunk Librarian View Post
I'm not of the opinion Beatrice has killed anyone (or is killing on her own accord). I'm of the opinion that Beatrice is separate from the culprit and only that Beatrice has something to do with the mass murders, which includes being an unwilling accomplice.

Like Meta-Beatrice being bullied by Lambda and Bern, I think real Beatrice is suffering the same thing. Ofc, the only proof for that is in the Meta World. I still can't figure out what or who Lambda and Bern are supposed to be.

Think about all the things Beatrice has done. Also think about everything that Clair said. There's absolutely no way that Beatrice didn't wish for Battler to understand something, and that many of her actions were done for that end. There's a mountain of evidence here. At best you can say that there is a culprit that takes advantage of Beatrice's plan.

You have the evidence of Beatrice asking Lambda to create the greatest mystery story.
You have the evidence of Beatrice knowing every single trick used in the games
You have the evidence of Beatrice in Ep7 claiming that she decided to leave everything to fate in a Kinzo-style gamble, wishing for a miracle to occur.

there is a 99% certainty that Beatrice developed a sort of mystery game which had as at least one of its purposes to test Battler's ability to understand everything.
__________________

Jan-Poo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-09-06, 21:51   Link #17386
LyricalAura
Dea ex Kakera
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I really don't understand all this distrust for Rosa's story. How long do you think Ryuukishi can drag a red herring? this story has endured for 2 long years, it keeps getting confirmed and there has never been any hint to use to debunk it.
The thing that makes me doubt it is the entire second game. Rosa comes face to face with Beatrice in the garden, but she doesn't have any kind of freakout like in EP3 or even show a hint that something's wrong. And that continues throughout the whole game, even when she's being tortured by Beato during the tea party. Beato never says anything to her about it either.

And then EP5 rolls around, and we get the "man from 19 years ago" story. There's that number again, and we've got another dubious tale of guilt about causing someone to fall off a cliff. So that got me thinking that it's two fake stories with a common inspiration.
__________________
"Something has fallen on us that falls very seldom on men; perhaps the worst thing that can fall on them. We have found the truth; and the truth makes no sense."
LyricalAura is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-09-06, 21:54   Link #17387
Oliver
Back off, I'm a scientist
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I mean the second order mystery was created by Beatrice, she must have set a culprit and Will must have found it. whydunnit, howdunnit and whodunnit!
You can't really solve a mystery without the three of them.
That's quite probable. Now, whether she really did anything in Rokkenjima-Prime, and whether she is that person whom she set as the culprit, that's the real problem. After all, Will never answers the "Who am I?".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I really don't understand all this distrust for Rosa's story. How long do you think Ryuukishi can drag a red herring? this story has endured for 2 long years, it keeps getting confirmed and there has never been any hint to use to debunk it.
It doesn't actually get confirmed. It is used as evidence to support other things, but nothing quite confirms Rosa's story itself, and I have previously described that it is impossible for both Rosa's Beatrice-2 story and Natsuhi's Baby-19 story to be the same if both are as given.

Something curious happened there, I'm not sure what exactly, but I think this is important to the big puzzle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Considering the number of lies and performances floating around the game boards, I don't know that you can say they're pure second-order fictions either. They're more like an unknown mixture of second- and third-order fictions that have to be pried apart to make sense of them.
That too. I must say though, that I suspect that they all aren't solvable separately, but only on multiple levels at once.

That is, second order fiction is Knox/Dine-incomplete, it doesn't have an "aha" moment. Notice that Ep5 might have one. Natsuhi frameup scene happens well before the bomb hits, and Battler is about to present his own theory, but instead of seeing it, we skip right to the endgame answer session with Meta-Battler.
__________________
"The only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."
Paul K. Feyerabend, "Against Method: Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge"

This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
by the Department of Education.
(updated 2010-08-24)
Oliver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-09-06, 21:57   Link #17388
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
The thing that makes me doubt it is the entire second game. Rosa comes face to face with Beatrice in the garden, but she doesn't have any kind of freakout like in EP3 or even show a hint that something's wrong. And that continues throughout the whole game, even when she's being tortured by Beato during the tea party. Beato never says anything to her about it either.

And then EP5 rolls around, and we get the "man from 19 years ago" story. There's that number again, and we've got another dubious tale of guilt about causing someone to fall off a cliff. So that got me thinking that it's two fake stories with a common inspiration.
A strange way to reason. The EP5 story should be a confirmation of Rosa's story, they match perfectly, and yet you just see it as yet another false. What exactly would you need to believe that Rosa's story is true? What Ryuukishi could possibly do to make the readers understand that Rosa's story isn't a lie? I can't imagine what else he could do.

Quote:
and I have previously described that it is impossible for both Rosa's Beatrice-2 story and Natsuhi's Baby-19 story to be the same if both are as given.
I must have missed it, care to repeat it?
__________________

Jan-Poo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-09-06, 22:00   Link #17389
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
What Ryuukishi could possibly do to make the readers understand that Rosa's story isn't a lie? I can't imagine what else he could do.
To say it is in an interview like he did with the explosion accident? His word is the word of god after all.
Judoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-09-06, 22:01   Link #17390
LyricalAura
Dea ex Kakera
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
That too. I must say though, that I suspect that they all aren't solvable separately, but only on multiple levels at once.

That is, second order fiction is Knox/Dine-incomplete, it doesn't have an "aha" moment. Notice that Ep5 might have one. Natsuhi frameup scene happens well before the bomb hits, and Battler is about to present his own theory, but instead of seeing it, we skip right to the endgame answer session with Meta-Battler.
No argument there. I was basically arguing before that we needed to be on the lookout for the possibility that third-order red truths had been mixed in with the second-order ones in order to slip something through the cracks. Something might pop out from considering how the layers interact with each other.
__________________
"Something has fallen on us that falls very seldom on men; perhaps the worst thing that can fall on them. We have found the truth; and the truth makes no sense."
LyricalAura is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-09-06, 22:03   Link #17391
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
To say it is in an interview like he did with the explosion accident? His word is the word of god after all.
That would be the same as giving the solution. So it's the same as saying: "I'll only believe it once I see a 100% confirmation."


But you made a good example there. Even in the case of the explosion there was absolutely no reason to doubt it, and Ryuukishi made it quite clear in that very interview. It was obvious, blatant.
__________________

Jan-Poo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-09-06, 22:06   Link #17392
LyricalAura
Dea ex Kakera
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
A strange way to reason. The EP5 story should be a confirmation of Rosa's story, they match perfectly, and yet you just see it as yet another false. What exactly would you need to believe that Rosa's story is true? What Ryuukishi could possibly do to make the readers understand that Rosa's story isn't a lie? I can't imagine what else he could do.
Some indication prior to EP7 that Beatrice-2 had been pregnant, ever, would probably have been convincing enough. But there wasn't any. She certainly didn't seem to be pregnant during her talk with Kinzo in 1967. And would she really have still seen him as a father figure worthy of respect after being impregnated by him?
__________________
"Something has fallen on us that falls very seldom on men; perhaps the worst thing that can fall on them. We have found the truth; and the truth makes no sense."
LyricalAura is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-09-06, 22:10   Link #17393
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
A father figure? If she saw him as a father figure she'd call him otousama or something. She calls him Kinzo.

As for the talk with Kinzo that could have happened in any time and you can't expect Ryuukishi to draw her pregnant anyway.

Anyway if you question that Beatrice2 had a child you don't just question Rosa you question half of EP7.
__________________

Jan-Poo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-09-06, 22:13   Link #17394
Oliver
Back off, I'm a scientist
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I must have missed it, care to repeat it?
I really hate repeating myself and the search sucks. It has been about 500 posts ago on my posting history, which means you probably can't find it there either.

That's the problem with forums.

A very short list without the supporting arguments:
  • So where's the baby in Rosa's story? It's not in Beatrice-2's hands, it's not IN her, and she doesn't look or behave like anyone who has ever been pregnant, especially recently as Will would have to insist if that happened in 1967.
  • Kinzo's odd reaction to the news.
  • Multiply repeated story of a servant that was hurt for disparaging Beatrice actually refers to the stairs, not a cliff.
  • Bern's red about Kinzo never trusting Natsuhi. (Sure, you already dismissed that, but I don't agree with the counterarguments presented.)
  • "Wouldn't put it past Kinzo" is a very general cop-out that can be used to excuse anything.
  • Evatrice's repeated mentions of playing together with Rosa when they were young are impossible for Eva, but possible for Beatrice-2.
If you want a guess: Rosa actually did play together with Beatrice-2. Where Beatrice-2 came from is a more difficult question and I don't really have a good answer, nor like the Ep7 story -- but Rosa also mentions that "A private teacher disclosed a confidential conversation to mother." And that could well have been Virgilia-Kumasawa, who is far too educated if Virgilia is any indication.

It could be that instead of coming to Kuwadorian through the hole in the fence, which is problematic, Rosa actually found it from inside and ran away with Beatrice-2 as an act of defiance.
__________________
"The only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."
Paul K. Feyerabend, "Against Method: Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge"

This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
by the Department of Education.
(updated 2010-08-24)
Oliver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-09-06, 22:13   Link #17395
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
For people disappointed in the mystery angle, consider a few of the following prospects:
  • Even if they are fictions, in theory each game board is an independently solvable narrative. Therefore, you can still enjoy those solutions individually.
  • The meta-fiction simply cannot adequately explain every disparate and discrete episode narrative, because they are different. The meta-narrative, read as a separate higher-order mystery, adds another layer of solvability. We are now asking, who survived? Who wrote what? Why did they write it? This enhances the mystery, as we now have something extra to solve, but assuming the game board mysteries were indpendently written competently, we aren't required to if we just want to solve the board mysteries.
  • If several people, including the true culprit, are still alive in 1998 or whenever these stories are being read and meta-fictionally worked through, we can have a body (all the people who didn't survive) and confront a culprit. They don't just blow up in 1986. They're still out there, and they can be stopped. If you like a good showdown, you'd like this idea because it gives you exactly what you want, more or less, without having to confront the culprit back in time and create a cheesy good ending.
Nothing is made pointless by Author Theory. If anything, it makes the true mystery one you weren't expecting, and a better mystery besides, while not making the board narratives worthless. The board narratives can still be solved on their own.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-09-06, 22:27   Link #17396
LyricalAura
Dea ex Kakera
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
A father figure? If she saw him as a father figure she'd call him otousama or something. She calls him Kinzo.
She also tells him he's like a father to her, IIRC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo
As for the talk with Kinzo that could have happened in any time and you can't expect Ryuukishi to draw her pregnant anyway.
In the forest of Rokkenjima, a hidden mansion called Kuwadorian exists. Those two actually had a conversation like that in this place. This is the world of 1967.
Furthermore, while I expect Ryuukishi to be lazy about characters, I don't expect him to be lazy about backgrounds, which means the conversation took place in spring or summer. I also don't expect him to use his lazy character art to disguise important aspects of the characters' appearance, and the manga and the anime both agreed that she didn't look pregnant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo
Anyway if you question that Beatrice2 had a child you don't just question Rosa you question half of EP7.
It seems to me that I'm questioning a small part of EP7 that Yasu's backstory isn't particularly dependent on.
__________________
"Something has fallen on us that falls very seldom on men; perhaps the worst thing that can fall on them. We have found the truth; and the truth makes no sense."
LyricalAura is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-09-06, 22:29   Link #17397
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
.[*]If several people, including the true culprit, are still alive in 1998 or whenever these stories are being read and meta-fictionally worked through, we can have a body (all the people who didn't survive) and confront a culprit. They don't just blow up in 1986. They're still out there, and they can be stopped. If you like a good showdown, you'd like this idea because it gives you exactly what you want, more or less, without having to confront the culprit back in time and create a cheesy good ending.
lol thank you Renall! Now I'm imagining a Battler nearing his 30's sporting a rugged reddish brown goatee confronting a graying old culprit. He looks so threatening and funny at the same time.
Judoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-09-06, 22:31   Link #17398
Rattan
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Question...

Was it stated specifically that original Beatrice died from Beatrice2's birth?
If not, then there's a chance that she died from the child from 19 years ago instead right?
Rattan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-09-06, 22:34   Link #17399
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
[*]So where's the baby in Rosa's story? It's not in Beatrice-2's hands, it's not IN her, and she doesn't look or behave like anyone who has ever been pregnant, especially recently as Will would have to insist if that happened in 1967.
Beatrice was in the garden and she was used to have many servant around her. It is logic to assume that if baby was present it would be inside the mansion and not outside. Beatrice maybe was taking a breather, but there's another possibility.

Maybe Beatrice didn't want to accept the baby. Postpartum depression is not so uncommon and it's often associated with a refusal of maternity. It seemed that Beatrice was somehow depressed to begin with, it is also hinted that she didn't really want to be Kinzo's mistress. It's not so far fetched to imagine she didn't want to be the mother of his sons either.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
[*]Kinzo's odd reaction to the news.
Why odd? Kinzo begun losing it since Beatrice Castiglioni died. He deluded himself into believing Beatrice2 was her reincarnation, but that Beatrice2 died which means in his eyes that Beatrice escaped him again. He only had that last hope, Beatrice3, but she also died. At that point Kinzo lost it completely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
[*]Multiply repeated the story of a servant that was hurt for disparaging Beatrice actually refers to the stairs, not a cliff.
this sort of connection makes no sense. The story of the maid that fell from the stairs is recent and she was only injured. The maid that fell from the cliff is very old, no mention was ever made about this maid being disrespectful toward Beatrice and she didn't get an injury, she died.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
[*]Bern's red about Kinzo never trusting Natsuhi. (Sure, you already dismissed that, but I don't agree with the counterarguments presented.)
This isn't even related to Rosa's story, with this you actually distrust the whole story of the baby from 19 years before. But this one is pretty solid at this point. The baby from 19 years before definitely exist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
[*]"Wouldn't put it past Kinzo" is a very general cop-out that can be used to excuse anything.
I don't see the relevance of this point. We are not taking advantage of a "I wouldn't put it past Kinzo" to support a devil's proof. There are enough evidences on Rosa's story's side, this is far beyond the level of a devil's proof.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
[*]Evatrice's repeated mentions of playing together with Rosa when they were young are impossible for Eva, but possible for Beatrice-2.
With this you don't deny Rosa and Beatrice2 encounter itself but how they encountered. However why would Rosa lie about that? And how would she be able to play with Beatrice2 in several occasions without anyone noticing that she went missing?
We know that Kinzo's "disappearances" didn't go unnoticed.


Quote:
Was it stated specifically that original Beatrice died from Beatrice2's birth?
Yes, and douche-Will even says "Don't be so surprised, it was obvious".
__________________

Jan-Poo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-09-06, 22:37   Link #17400
Oliver
Back off, I'm a scientist
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rattan View Post
Was it stated specifically that original Beatrice died from Beatrice2's birth?
If not, then there's a chance that she died from the child from 19 years ago instead right?
Ep7 says it is so. It's truthfulness is very much in dispute, and Kinzo's testimony in particular is practically surrounded by oddities -- for one, he simply vanishes before it's done.
__________________
"The only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."
Paul K. Feyerabend, "Against Method: Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge"

This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
by the Department of Education.
(updated 2010-08-24)
Oliver is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 17:36.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.