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Old 2010-09-06, 22:41   Link #17401
theacefrehley
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rattan View Post
Question...

Was it stated specifically that original Beatrice died from Beatrice2's birth?
If not, then there's a chance that she died from the child from 19 years ago instead right?
It's pretty much implied she died giving birth

Game quote:
「出産が、うまく行かなかったそうで。お気の毒なことです。」
<南條

'It seems the childbirth didn't go well...unfortunately'

Unless we are being tricked here somehow
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Old 2010-09-06, 22:44   Link #17402
Rattan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theacefrehley View Post
It's pretty much implied she died giving birth

Game quote:
「出産が、うまく行かなかったそうで。お気の毒なことです。」
<南條

'It seems the childbirth didn't go well...unfortunately'

Unless we are being tricked here somehow
Ah, so was it from bea-2's birth or the other child's birth? I'm sorry heh.
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Old 2010-09-06, 22:44   Link #17403
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Why odd? Kinzo begun losing it since Beatrice Castiglioni died. He deluded himself into believing Beatrice2 was her reincarnation, but that Beatrice2 died which means in his eyes that Beatrice escaped him again. He only had that last hope, Beatrice3, but she also died. At that point Kinzo lost it completely.

[...]

I don't see the relevance of this point. We are not taking advantage of a "I wouldn't put it past Kinzo" to support a devil's proof. There are enough of evidences on Rosa's story's side, this is far beyond the level of a devil's proof.
You can say that Kinzo is insane, and then you say that you aren't using it to support a Devil's Proof? Really?

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
this sort of connection makes no sense. The story of the maid that fell from the stairs is recent and she was only injured. The maid that fell from the cliff is very old, no mention was ever made about this maid being disrespectful toward Beatrice and she didn't get an injury, she died.
Shannon says it happened before she started working in Ep1. Then a later retelling in Ep5 says it happened after the portrait was put up. In both cases the story of the servant who fell down the stairs is otherwise the same.

So which episode do I think I should believe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
With this you don't deny Rosa and Beatrice2 encounter itself but how they encountered. However why would Rosa lie about that? And how would she be able to play with Beatrice2 in several occasions without anyone noticing that she gone missing?
Kumasawa went with her.

Why would Rosa lie about that? puhleease
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Old 2010-09-06, 22:49   Link #17404
Judoh
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There is also how Natsuhi is certain Kinzo and her (Rosa was on a field trip with her friends she says) were the only people on the island the day the servant and the baby fell from the cliff. So Natsuhi clearly wouldn't think the stories connect.

Unless I'm missing something...??
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Old 2010-09-06, 22:51   Link #17405
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
In the forest of Rokkenjima, a hidden mansion called Kuwadorian exists. Those two actually had a conversation like that in this place. This is the world of 1967.
Furthermore, while I expect Ryuukishi to be lazy about characters, I don't expect him to be lazy about backgrounds, which means the conversation took place in spring or summer. I also don't expect him to use his lazy character art to disguise important aspects of the characters' appearance, and the manga and the anime both agreed that she didn't look pregnant.
Surely you are aware that pregnancy is visibly evident only in the few last months. That conversation could have happened any time. Before the pregnancy, during the pregnancy and after the pregnancy. There's only about a 4 month time span where you would definitely need to show a baby bump.


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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
It seems to me that I'm questioning a small part of EP7 that Yasu's backstory isn't particularly dependent on.
Small you say?
Lion's world is said to be the result of Natsuhi accepting the baby from Kinzo. This looks like a very important detail to me.

And from Yasu's world it isn't so much different either. Genji narrates the whole story of how he rescued Yasu after she fell from the cliff and the same story is repeated when Yasu solves the epitaph. Not to mention it is hinted again in the flashback where Yasu screams she's furniture.
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Old 2010-09-06, 22:57   Link #17406
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
You can say that Kinzo is insane, and then you say that you aren't using it to support a Devil's Proof? Really?
You need a devil's proof to claim that people can be mad?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Shannon says it happened before she started working in Ep1. Then a later retelling in Ep5 says it happened after the portrait was put up. In both cases the story of the servant who fell down the stairs is otherwise the same.

So which episode do I think I should believe?
One of the two stories about the maid that fell from the stairs is wrong, but how exactly this shows a connection with the maid that fell with the baby?

The only similarity is that a maid fell down. Everything else is different.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Kumasawa went with her.

Why would Rosa lie about that? puhleease
Let me clarify this. Why would Rosa lie about this in 1986?
She says she killed Beatrice, basically telling that she is a murderer. Why would she have a problem telling that she met Beatrice several times? Was that a crime worse than murder?
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Old 2010-09-06, 23:05   Link #17407
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
You need a devil's proof to claim that people can be mad?
When it's Kinzo, yes. His madness is used to excuse so many things otherwise that I can't honestly accept it as an argument at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
The only similarity is that a maid fell down. Everything else is different.
Same as with the Rosa story and Natsuhi story. The only similarity is that someone fell down the cliff. Everything else is different.

So why are they at all connected? Mind you, nothing stops Yasu from thinking she's that baby. She doesn't have to be right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Let me clarify this. Why would Rosa lie about this in 1986?
She says she killed Beatrice, basically telling that she is a murderer. Why would she have a problem telling that she met Beatrice several times? Was that a crime worse than murder?
Yes. Because that would mean explaining how she really got to Kuwadorian, which was through the underground passage.

My current guess under investigation is that Rosa is the initiator of the epitaph solution party, which kind of fails if Rosa gives away she knows the solution.
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Old 2010-09-06, 23:10   Link #17408
Renall
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Surely you are aware that pregnancy is visibly evident only in the few last months. That conversation could have happened any time. Before the pregnancy, during the pregnancy and after the pregnancy. There's only about a 4 month time span where you would definitely need to show a baby bump.
A coworker of mine was showing for about 6 months, pretty obviously, before giving birth in early August. I wouldn't say it's quite so non-obvious, especially with that kinda dress.

But that's irrelevant. The main issue is that she really doesn't act like the sort of person who would have been recently or presently pregnant, nor does she seem to have any meaningful reaction which would suggest awareness of any baby. When Rosa is like "let's go!" where is the "but what about my baby?" If the baby's not there at all (because it was already taken), did she know? Did she care? Her behavior is just very strange for anyone who is or was ever a mother.
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Old 2010-09-06, 23:53   Link #17409
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
When it's Kinzo, yes. His madness is used to excuse so many things otherwise that I can't honestly accept it as an argument at all.
Well I can't say I agree here. The madness idea has been abused, certainly, but this is no reason to deny that madness exists and expect a perfectly normal behavior from a man that clearly doesn't show a normal behavior.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Same as with the Rosa story and Natsuhi story. The only similarity is that someone fell down the cliff. Everything else is different.

So why are they at all connected? Mind you, nothing stops Yasu from thinking she's that baby. She doesn't have to be right.
So many wrong things here.
Rosa's and natsuhi's stories are not the same story of course they don't need to have similarities
the connection is something that was stated in Ep7quite clearly.
Yasu is not the only one who thinks she's that baby. Will also thinks it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Yes. Because that would mean explaining how she really got to Kuwadorian, which was through the underground passage.

My current guess under investigation is that Rosa is the initiator of the epitaph solution party, which kind of fails if Rosa gives away she knows the solution.
Quite impossible. If Rosa knew how to open the entrance to that tunnel she would have used that chance to solve the epitaph and become the new heir many years before, even before Yasu. You'd have to write as lies a lot of stuff about Rosa to explain why she didn't use that chance. Starting from her extreme need of money.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
But that's irrelevant. The main issue is that she really doesn't act like the sort of person who would have been recently or presently pregnant, nor does she seem to have any meaningful reaction which would suggest awareness of any baby. When Rosa is like "let's go!" where is the "but what about my baby?" If the baby's not there at all (because it was already taken), did she know? Did she care? Her behavior is just very strange for anyone who is or was ever a mother.
I addressed this issue earlier. It is possible that Beatrice refused the baby.
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Old 2010-09-07, 00:04   Link #17410
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
So many wrong things here.
Rosa's and natsuhi's stories are not the same story of course they don't need to have similarities
the connection is something that was stated in Ep7quite clearly.
Yasu is not the only one who thinks she's that baby. Will also thinks it.
Stated by... whom? Will? So just because he thinks something, he can't be wrong?

Back in the day, when Ep5 was fresh, I actually saw the stairs story used to support the Natsuhi story. You just said they are not related.

There is Word of God that the mystery is solvable with the first four episodes. Please produce evidence from episodes 1-4 allowing us to infer the existence of Baby-19 at all. As the stairs story is not connected, you can't use it as a hint.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Quite impossible. If Rosa knew how to open the entrance to that tunnel she would have used that chance to solve the epitaph and become the new heir many years before, even before Yasu. You'd have to write as lies a lot of stuff about Rosa to explain why she didn't use that chance. Starting from her extreme need of money.
Does Rosa ever express the desire to be the heir? Is her need for money anywhere that extreme as that of the other siblings?...
...ah, well, whatever, if saying 'investigating' somehow missed your ears, I guess I'll go back to thinking on my own.
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Old 2010-09-07, 00:26   Link #17411
musouka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Please produce evidence from episodes 1-4 allowing us to infer the existence of Baby-19 at all.
Kinzo's behavior. It was pretty damn obvious that he thought Beatrice's soul could be transferred from body to body and that he had done it more than once. The game sets it up for you to think about how there could be another Beatrice if that one died, and the obvious conclusion is that there was a descendant from that Beatrice.

Admittedly, my friend and I didn't think in terms of blood relations. We thought of Kinzo picking up kids from Fukuin, but the same basic premise is easy to discern.
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Old 2010-09-07, 00:27   Link #17412
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Quite impossible. If Rosa knew how to open the entrance to that tunnel she would have used that chance to solve the epitaph and become the new heir many years before, even before Yasu. You'd have to write as lies a lot of stuff about Rosa to explain why she didn't use that chance. Starting from her extreme need of money.
Kyrie advanced a theory at one point (EP4?) that the letter writer didn't have enough leverage to just come forward and claim the money themselves, so they were trying to use its location as a bargaining chip. Rosa doesn't have much authority among the siblings, and if she announced she'd found the gold, there's a good chance it would just be taken away from her. It's actually in her best interests to make sure someone else finds it with her help so they can support her claim. That lines up with her behavior in EP3, where she dropped a critical hint to Eva and then showed up at the gold right behind her.
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Old 2010-09-07, 00:29   Link #17413
Judoh
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Well if Rosa doesn't have the same feelings as the siblings and she knows about it we can add another sin to the list. Pride. That would mean she looks down on her older siblings for scavenging for money and dragging her into ganging up on Krauss when she figured out this riddle a long time ago.

But that also might mean we have to remove greed from the list.

Note that: Besides Kumasawa Rosa also (is the only other person if IIRC) is mentioned to take notes on the epitaph [ep1]. And it's Maria who copied it down for her.
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Old 2010-09-07, 02:17   Link #17414
Used Can
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In order for Rosa to have found the gold by 1967, I think that'd mean she'd have been able to use Kinzo's passcode in the chapel, since, as far as we know, that's the only passage available to reach the gold and Kuwadorian. Back then, there was no epitaph, so we'd have to assume she was playing around the chapel and by one huge coincidence she did the whole thing, or she's some sort of super-genius that just solved the whole puzzle because she's that awesome. None of these are particularly credible, in my opinion.

As for the story of the servant who had an accident, it was brought up only twice, I believe. The first time it was brought up by Shannon during EP1, and she said that just before she began working, a servant who spoke badly of Beatrice fell down the stairs and ended up with a "serious injury" in his/her back, which prevented him/her from working (and thus had to quit). The second time it was brought up by George, during his conversation with Shannon in EP2, and he simply said he had heard about a servant who had an accident, because he/she had spoken poorly of Beatrice. For all we know, both events could be the same.

By the way, I found this, quite possibly interesting passage in EP4:
Spoiler for ST'd for length:
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Last edited by Used Can; 2010-09-07 at 02:30.
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Old 2010-09-07, 03:09   Link #17415
Judoh
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Yeah that's an interesting one. There are lot of nuggets of truth in episode 4.

One thing to notice in that passage is that the number of bullies in the class is 19. So the theme continues.

This is one of the scenes I thought was interesting in that episode. And it's long enough and the topic is deep enough that I couldn't help, but think it was a huge clue.

Spoiler for lots of space:

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-09-07 at 03:39.
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Old 2010-09-07, 03:37   Link #17416
Used Can
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Yeah, I was also thinking about that too, and it reminded me of a part from Lambda's Diary TIP, in which she said that the girl who aspired to be a witch wasn't asking Lambda to recognise her as a witch, because she already was one. However, she thought it'd be better if a fellow witch would acknowledge as such.

What I wonder is, what sort of recognition does Beato/Yasu/Lion wants from Battler?
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Old 2010-09-07, 03:53   Link #17417
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Yeah, I was also thinking about that too, and it reminded me of a part from Lambda's Diary TIP, in which she said that the girl who aspired to be a witch wasn't asking Lambda to recognise her as a witch, because she already was one. However, she thought it'd be better if a fellow witch would acknowledge as such.

What I wonder is, what sort of recognition does Beato/Yasu/Lion wants from Battler?
"I am here, won't you acknowledge that I am?" or something to that effect, I'd think. If Amakusa is future-Battler or something similar, it'd be pretty interesting to see how his life wound up to cause him to take that attitude on.

If Battler survived, has he acknowledged himself? Or does he not, due to the fact he survived?

The entire situation surrounding Battler if he did survive is pretty deep. But we know that ultimately Beatrice wanted Battler to acknowledge her, recognize her...But does he? Is she still waiting for him even at the very end?

Some questions simply arent a part of the mystery, but are part of the story nonetheless.
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Old 2010-09-07, 03:56   Link #17418
cmos
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Please produce evidence from episodes 1-4 allowing us to infer the existence of Baby-19 at all. As the stairs story is not connected, you can't use it as a hint.
Relatives frequently speculate about it. Especially in ep2, when the mysterious guest had appeared, they theorized that she may be an illegitimate child of Kinzo from his mistress.
Jessica in prologue about the portrait: "It's Beatrice-sama. ......Nobody knows her background. Could she be Grandfather's mistress from long ago? ......Maybe her descendants will unexpectedly appear and tell us to return the gold we were granted or something, right?"

Relatives:
"That kind of thing doesn't matter. ...The problem is what happens if that woman starts calling herself Beatrice, if she starts calling herself the manager of Father's assets."
"Or, ...maybe she plans to call herself his mistress's daughter, and demand that the inheritance be distributed to her. ...Either way, an outrageous joker has been slipped into the deck. .........Did Nii-san call her? ...Or did Father...?"


"I told you to be silent! I've been in this mansion with Father the whole time, and I haven't heard about this once. .........At best, all we can guess is that Father's hidden mistress of several decades ago had a hidden child, ......and Father searched her out and called her today. ...Is that what you want to say?"
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Old 2010-09-07, 03:57   Link #17419
Judoh
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For Beatrice candidates. Other then generic craziness of wanting to be praised for being a murderer...

What I thought at first was that Beato wanted to be acknowledged as a person by Battler. But with Yasu/Shannon/Lion/whatever that doesn't make as much sense as the Lambda acknowledging a witch thing.

Because with Kanon for example all he would need to do to be acknowledged as "human" or as a "person" would be to talk to Jessica and have her give him the guarantee that he's human. He could get that guarantee from her in seconds and she often does make it around him.

As we've been shown though it's much more complicated than just that...

With Jessica though Battler not seeing Jessica as a girl is one conclusion, but it would just be a rehashing the Keiichi's sin against Mion in Higurashi.

I think it could apply to Shannon and George's relationship though. There being a Romeo and Juliet metaphor so early in the series and all. However not many here think that's a strong enough motive. So I haven't tried to elaborate on that.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-09-07 at 04:07.
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Old 2010-09-07, 04:16   Link #17420
Used Can
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I think this should also tie with the whole deal about furniture being able to attain humanity with love. During the scene Judoh posted from EP4, Ange mentioned there are things people desire, which they cannot feel complete unless they receive. In EP6 we had this same issue with the Love Duel.

So, we have two things here, which are apparently related:
1. Being recognised
2. Receiving love

Now, it'd bring into question why would Yasu want to be recognised by Battler when George and Jessica already do so (i.e. as Shannon and Kanon respectively - assuming Shaknontrice is true)? If I can make a quick assumption then Yasu/Lion doesn't want to be seen as Shannon and/or Kanon, but as who (s)he really is. This is where the whole "without love it cannot be seen plays out" (well, one of the many instances in which it does), because if Battler can see this whole story through a love bias, then perhaps he can piece together several things - beginning from what an "Endless Witch" is, and how Beatrice the Endless was born and why. Now, why Battler? Why not present himself/herself as (s)he really is to George, Jessica or someone else, I don't know. Perhaps, after going through all of his/her internal conflict, all Yasu/Lion had was his/her promise with Battler. So, those feelings remained.
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