AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2010-09-09, 00:59   Link #17501
TehChron
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by kamuinoyume View Post
You do realize that this Yasu person, would actually be the 18 person on the island, and therefore, it would practically mean that Beatrice's red truth about there only being 17 people would be annulled, or better said, proven as false.Therefore, I would legally be allowed to take anything written in red as a double edge sword, or a complete lie and not take it into consideration, including the whole: Battler-kun is innocent thing?
Sigh.

Look. If Yasu really meant that, then don't you think we'd have picked up on that fact?

The existence of Yasu does not violate the 17-person limit.
TehChron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-09-09, 01:30   Link #17502
erneiz_hyde
Indifferent
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: InterWebs
Quote:
Originally Posted by kamuinoyume View Post
You do realize that this Yasu person, would actually be the 18 person on the island, and therefore, it would practically mean that Beatrice's red truth about there only being 17 people would be annulled, or better said, proven as false.Therefore, I would legally be allowed to take anything written in red as a double edge sword, or a complete lie and not take it into consideration, including the whole: Battler-kun is innocent thing?
With all due respect, I'd suggest you actually play the chiru arcs first, buddy. Also, since in here spoilers up to ep.7 are flying everywhere, I'd suggest you play that too (if you can read Japanese). That said I'm giving you spoiler that Yasu is the base, real personality of Beatrice the culprit, who is speculated to be Shannon. Since Shannon is within the 17 person boundary, the existence of Yasu doesn't violate the red.

Also, Battler culprit theory and the false red theory have been discussed and generally dismissed in the past. Though you'd have to swim through past pages .
__________________
erneiz_hyde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-09-09, 01:47   Link #17503
Frisko
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Battler as the culprit might not violate the red even if we assume Battler-kun refers to the Battler we know. Virgilia declared,
"Battler-kun is not the culprit. Battler-kun didn't kill anyone. This can be said of all games."
But, she didn't say those statements could be made in red for all games. Although, this would mean Battler was innocent in the fifth game.

Last edited by Frisko; 2010-09-09 at 01:53. Reason: formating
Frisko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-09-09, 02:15   Link #17504
erneiz_hyde
Indifferent
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: InterWebs
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frisko View Post
Battler as the culprit might not violate the red even if we assume Battler-kun refers to the Battler we know. Virgilia declared,
"Battler-kun is not the culprit. Battler-kun didn't kill anyone. This can be said of all games."
But, she didn't say those statements could be made in red for all games. Although, this would mean Battler was innocent in the fifth game.
The last part of the three red combo actually said it. You see, it's logic, for something to be true, then everything it states must also be true (hell, that definition is what started the liar paradox). Since "This can be said of all games." is already red, which means true, the sentence implying it must also be true, which means the previous two reds must be valid on all games.
__________________
erneiz_hyde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-09-09, 06:10   Link #17505
alviam099
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by TehChron View Post
Sigh.

Look. If Yasu really meant that, then don't you think we'd have picked up on that fact?

The existence of Yasu does not violate the 17-person limit.
This is right, actually she could, no actually she must be one of the 17 people for it not to violate the 17-person limit
alviam099 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-09-09, 07:38   Link #17506
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
I think Yasu has to reveal her plans to everyone FAR before October 4th, else too much of everything actually went too smooth for a "on the spot" plan (at least for the adults)

Also, I think Yasu has a Trick X to convince the adults that she can make someone living appear as a deader than dead corpse, as a leverage to the scheme. So when someone was actually killed, they can't tell the difference. Because if even one real corpse were identified, the whole adults will retaliate against Yasu and the murder should stop then and there.

The problem is... if you think that Beatrice got the adults as accomplices before the start of the game, I don't think there is a clear hint of that. However there is indeed a hint about Beatrice getting the adults on her side during the first arcs and that's a very big one. that's the chapel scene in EP2

If you think that in that scene Beatrice made every adult accept her plan and accept to acknowledge her as a "witch", a lot of things make sense. Ryuukishi was clever enough to show this scene when most people would think it is just a magic scene and not pay much attention to it. But now we have enough knowledge about the facts concerning umineko to consider that a very plausible real scene.


The only real problem is the fact that Ange is not present. However Ange isn't there in Lion's world either. So Ange's absence is not related to Beatrice's plans.



Quote:
Originally Posted by alviam099 View Post
This is right, actually she could, no actually she must be one of the 17 people for it not to violate the 17-person limit

There are several ways to explain how Yasu doesn't break the 17-person limit

Yasu is Shannon (practically an established fact as of now)
Yasu is Kanon
Shkanon and GhostErika are true, Yasu is the 17th person

other ideas are too far-fetched in my opinion.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-09-09, 15:47   Link #17507
Steampunk Librarian
Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
I was randomly pondering what titles in this game mean for the witches. Obviously, Golden Witch can apply to "the one who has the gold," but I wonder what Endless is and what Witch of Origins is.

I'm sure its been argued before, but I wonder if the Endless Witch who practices infinite magic refers to the magic of numbers. My friend and I had a strange discussion a long time ago about whether or not magic exists. I told him of course not, but he argued that there is magic in numbers. Numbers when used in math can come out with the truth most of the time. Age old 2+2=4. That is true, because when you add those numbers, it will always come out to the given number.

When it comes to infinite, I wonder if somehow it refers to the infinity between numbers, such as between 0 and 1 there are INFINITE numbers. 0, 0.1, 0.001, 0.0001,...,0.9,0.99,0.999,...1. He told me that is where magic is.

Its sort of a romantic notion, but math seems to come up sometimes in this game lol
Steampunk Librarian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-09-09, 16:04   Link #17508
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
The identity of the Witch of Origins has been at least vaguely explained; "one who makes 1 from 0." In Meta-World terms, this seems to be the person capable of codifying and personifying the characters of that world. If ep7 is to be believed, Maria is directly responsible for the entire foundational narrative from which the Meta-World characters derive their identities.

But the actual narrative instances seem to come from the "Endless" individual. Arguably this means the storyteller, who can take a base narrative (the setup of Rokkenjima, Maria's meta-world characters) and spin infinite stories from it.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-09-09, 16:39   Link #17509
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
numbers are abstract concepts, that's why they are magical, they do not exist.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-09-09, 17:48   Link #17510
Oliver
Back off, I'm a scientist
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
numbers are abstract concepts, that's why they are magical, they do not exist.
I understand what you mean, but ...if you don't strictly define "existence" sufficiently narrowly now, before using it after having said that, people will laugh at you.
__________________
"The only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."
Paul K. Feyerabend, "Against Method: Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge"

This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
by the Department of Education.
(updated 2010-08-24)
Oliver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-09-09, 18:15   Link #17511
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
The laugh of the fool doesn't bother me.

I'll believe numbers exist when you'll show me one. /sarcasm

Until then I think I'll stick with the natural assumption that numbers are mere concepts. They do have a practical use, but so do words.

Look even witches and magic exist as concepts, but that's not a good reason to claim they exist.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-09-09, 18:20   Link #17512
Oliver
Back off, I'm a scientist
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Look even witches and magic exist as concepts, but that's not a good reason to claim they exist.
Until you define "existence" this phrase is going to be nonsense.
And you know that.
__________________
"The only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."
Paul K. Feyerabend, "Against Method: Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge"

This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
by the Department of Education.
(updated 2010-08-24)
Oliver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-09-09, 18:23   Link #17513
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
I'll let you do that.

Provide a definition of existence that doesn't include witches and magic.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-09-09, 18:25   Link #17514
Oliver
Back off, I'm a scientist
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Provide a definition of existence that doesn't include witches and magic.
Provide a definition of witches and magic so that I can do that, first.
__________________
"The only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."
Paul K. Feyerabend, "Against Method: Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge"

This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
by the Department of Education.
(updated 2010-08-24)
Oliver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-09-09, 18:34   Link #17515
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Good point, in umineko they have several meanings.

Well of course I meant the definition according to which they do not exist, proving which is the main purpose of Battler in the core arcs.

Magic refers to the practice of manipulating the physical world through methods that defy the laws of physic and nature.

Witch is a specific subset of the broader class of "magician" that is one that performs magics.
I don't think it is necessary that I explain what distinguish a witch from the other magicians.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-09-09, 18:34   Link #17516
Erisette
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
The identity of the Witch of Origins has been at least vaguely explained; "one who makes 1 from 0." In Meta-World terms, this seems to be the person capable of codifying and personifying the characters of that world. If ep7 is to be believed, Maria is directly responsible for the entire foundational narrative from which the Meta-World characters derive their identities.

But the actual narrative instances seem to come from the "Endless" individual. Arguably this means the storyteller, who can take a base narrative (the setup of Rokkenjima, Maria's meta-world characters) and spin infinite stories from it.
Then the Witch of Origins is the one that creates the "world" and the characters and the Endless Witch writes the plot using the things she created, right? I guess parts like "You killed my family a lot of times" and "I can kill and revive your family" make sense with this.

Also, could it be that at the end of EP5, Battler didn't forgive the culprit, but just Meta-Beatrice? Maybe he realized the games until then were just fiction.
Erisette is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-09-09, 18:44   Link #17517
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erisette View Post
Then the Witch of Origins is the one that creates the "world" and the characters and the Endless Witch writes the plot using the things she created, right? I guess parts like "You killed my family a lot of times" and "I can kill and revive your family" make sense with this.
No it takes two to create a world. That's a line Zepar and Furfur repeat also.
Judoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-09-09, 18:45   Link #17518
Leafsnail
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Or that Beatrice didn't commit the killings at all (that was my interpretation of the red text motive section in ep4, anyway).
Leafsnail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-09-09, 19:01   Link #17519
Oliver
Back off, I'm a scientist
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Magic refers to the practice of manipulating the physical world through methods that defy the laws of physic and nature.

Witch is a specific subset of the broader class of "magician" that is one that performs magics.
I don't think it is necessary that I explain what distinguish a witch from the other magicians.
It is impossible to state with certainty that laws of physics and nature are known in their complete form. Therefore witches don't exist whichever definition of existence I offer.

The generic definition of "existence" would be something like "objects, true knowledge of which is possible, exist."
You can, of course, go narrower than that, and restrict the definition of "existence" to "objects which have a material substance exist".

Unfortunately that would not only exclude numbers as such, which would only screw mathematics, but would also screw things that are unambiguously real (like money) but have no material substance to them, essentially ending up in a world where nothing of actual interest "exists" and making the word useless.

You would be in essence falsely replacing the idea of "existence" with the idea of "matter". Mind you, what "matter" is, isn't an easy question either, and with the way modern physics works, it might end up not existing too.
__________________
"The only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."
Paul K. Feyerabend, "Against Method: Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge"

This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
by the Department of Education.
(updated 2010-08-24)
Oliver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-09-09, 19:02   Link #17520
TehChron
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
The laugh of the fool doesn't bother me.

I'll believe numbers exist when you'll show me one. /sarcasm
42.

Numbers exist as units of measurement of real world phenomena. And as such, can take on several different forms to measure the same thing. They are themselves a means to grasp the form of reality, and enable us to keep track of quantities by differentiating unequal quantities from one another.

Or something.
TehChron is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:39.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.