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Old 2010-10-02, 12:49   Link #17841
rogerpepitone
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If the baby swap was accidental, what did Rudolf want to discuss with his "I'll probably be killed tonight" comment?
If it was the baby switch, how did he find out about it, and why was he reluctant to talk about it?
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Old 2010-10-02, 13:36   Link #17842
Used Can
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I highly doubt it was an accident, and as other people have pointed it out before, Kyrie and Asumu delivering on the same day is just too much of a coincidence.
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Old 2010-10-02, 14:09   Link #17843
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
If the baby swap was accidental, what did Rudolf want to discuss with his "I'll probably be killed tonight" comment?
If it was the baby switch, how did he find out about it, and why was he reluctant to talk about it?
The hospital discovered the error and informed Rudolf, as the father of the two children, so that he could decide how to inform the mothers. However, the live baby had already been given to Asumu, and Kyrie had already been told her baby was dead. Rudolf had already proposed to Asumu as well. In order to fix the mistake, he would have had to take the baby away from Asumu and also back out of the marriage proposal, both of which would have hurt her terribly. Considering that Kyrie had already had to accept that her child was dead, the best solution to avoid spreading any more pain around was to keep quiet.

After Asumu's death, Rudolf still felt bad about what happened, but he thought remarrying with Kyrie would help fix things by making her Battler's stepmother. However, Battler didn't know why he was doing this, so he overreacted to the remarriage and ran away from the family for six years. Meanwhile, Kyrie continue to feel resentment toward Battler for being the catalyst that originally took Rudolf away from her.

Seeing what this had done to his loved ones, Rudolf eventually decided to do whatever he had to in order to bring them back together, which led him to get down on his knees and beg Battler to come home. Battler remained distant from Kyrie even after that, so Rudolf finally worked up the courage to reveal everything at the family conference. He knew Kyrie would explode when she found out, which is why he'd kept quiet before, but reuniting Battler with his real mother was more important to him. That's why he told Battler they needed to have a family discussion and that he would "probably be killed".

Rudolf didn't do anything wrong, other than simultaneously being in love with two different women. He was just caught in a tragic situation and tried to do what was best for his family, even if that meant sacrificing himself.
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Old 2010-10-02, 15:49   Link #17844
Judoh
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I highly doubt it was an accident, and as other people have pointed it out before, Kyrie and Asumu delivering on the same day is just too much of a coincidence.
It's been pointed out yes, but never as a negative for a hospital mix up. It's also practically confirmed they did in fact give birth on the same day and nature just can't be manipulated to make that happen. There is just no deliberate way to fix something like that. IMO Asumu and Kyrie giving birth on the same day should actually support it being a hospital mix up not make it doubtful.

I highly doubt anyone besides maybe Rudolf himself was involved in deliberately switching the babies too, because nobody gains anything by doing that.
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Old 2010-10-02, 15:50   Link #17845
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
However, I think the story is practically shouting at this point that you shouldn't assume the worst of people in the absence of data.
I think so as well. More evidence came in episode 7 when Rudolf shed tears while speaking with his brother about Asumu’s death. He did feel guilt for cheating on her.
Spoiler for Episode 7:

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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Sometimes tragic things happen that are just accidents.
I think that is very close to the final truth that will be revealed in the end.

Then again, to what extent do Van Dine’s rules apply? If they apply to the story as a whole there’s rule number 12 to consider.
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Old 2010-10-02, 20:03   Link #17846
alviam099
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If they apply to the story as a whole there’s rule number 12 to consider.
Van Dine is actually very mean to those who do not want to believe that it is not murder but accident ..

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I think so as well. More evidence came in episode 7 when Rudolf shed tears while speaking with his brother about Asumu’s death. He did feel guilt for cheating on her.
Seems Rudolf cared about Asumu alot huh Never red EP7 so ..,,
He can't stop himself from blaming himself that much ..
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Old 2010-10-02, 20:52   Link #17847
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Technically, Van Dine is very hard on a mystery novel in which there is no crime. This is also true of Knox and any other mystery rule writer you care to name. They don't like it when a mystery isn't a mystery.

If we are not, in fact, reading a mystery, and were never told we should be thinking of something as a mystery, then what? Would Van Dine be critical of The Lord of the Rings or Heart of Darkness? Well, no. They're not mysteries.

On the other hand, works that are not mysteries do not normally attempt to mislead people into thinking they are. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, we can be forgiven for thinking it was a duck and upset to discover it's actually a very talented terrier.
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Old 2010-10-02, 22:49   Link #17848
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Well, I am just going to throw a few things out here. Wright's appearance in the game means very little so far, we will have to wait to see if his rules apply to the game or how they apply.

I don't remember Battler being confirmed as Kyrie's child; we only know that there is a secret concerning his birth.

Spoiler for Episode 7 spoiler-ish(not really?):
I could see Ryukishi going for an accident, I mean there are not very many ways for Battler to present a 'tale filled with love', or however Battler said it, without one.
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Old 2010-10-03, 01:18   Link #17849
alviam099
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Well the bomb itself could be an accident Yasu don't know how to defuse it so (s)he made use of it ahh isn't it great ?
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Old 2010-10-03, 03:05   Link #17850
estdesoda
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How would the hospital swap explain:

Usiromiya Battler is born from Usiromiya Asumu.

this particular red?

and what function would the swap serve, storywise, on who/how/whydunit?
I can see that this gives Kyrie more motive - but, er, she already is mad enough in EP7.
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Old 2010-10-03, 03:26   Link #17851
Used Can
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Originally Posted by Smeckledorf View Post
I could see Ryukishi going for an accident, I mean there are not very many ways for Battler to present a 'tale filled with love', or however Battler said it, without one.
I don't think "filled with love" means that people wouldn't do evil things, just that, just because they did something evil doesn't mean they enjoy doing those things, and/or they are inherently evil.

Take a look at Rosa and Maria or Eva and Ange. Rosa and Eva were terrible guardians, but that didn't mean they didn't care for the kids they were taking care of. We've seen Rosa does love Maria, and in the "Witches Tanabata" TIP, we saw Eva did try to start anew with Ange. However, in both situations, things became complicated, and Rosa and Eva treated Maria and Ange rather poorly. With love, you can understand their circumstances (of course, what sort of judgement to give to their actions after you get full understanding of their circumstances is, in my opinion, an entirely different matter). However, without love you'll see them as plainly shitty guardians who didn't care for their children.

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Originally Posted by estdesoda View Post
How would the hospital swap explain:

Usiromiya Battler is born from Usiromiya Asumu.
Well, I think there are several possible theories. For example, Rudolph and Asumu may have planned to name their kid Battler, but Asumu's kid was stillborn. This could have happened before or during the same day Kyrie delivered - I'm saying this could have happened before, because I find it rather suspicious Asumu and Kyrie delivered on the same day and there's also the whole deal about Rudolph arranging everything especially for Kyrie. Anyway, through connections, Rudolph made it look as if Kyrie's kid was the stillborn one, and Asumu's the live one. Rudolph named Kyrie's kid Battler, since that's how he planned to name Asumu's kid. Asumu may, or may not have been aware of this. As for why Rudolph did this. I think there are several possible reasons. Three of these would be: 1. He really wanted to marry Asumu, so he made it look as if Asumu's kid was the one who lived. 2. He didn't want his kid to be raised in the Sumadera household. 3. He was already engaged with Asumu and didn't want Kyrie to be burdened with a child.
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Old 2010-10-03, 04:25   Link #17852
Judoh
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One possibility for why Rudolf would chose Asumu instead of Kyrie is because he wanted a partner that would be good at taking care of kids instead of one that's a good business confidante. Kyrie describes giving Rudolf a lot ideas in college for some quick money schemes in episode 6. I think it's possible Rudolf might have been a little intimidated of Kyrie because she was smarter than him. If so he might have had the same mentality about women as Kinzo and Krauss.

Quote:
Krauss:"Just like how there are things that only men can do, there are things that only women can do, right? I think things like giving birth to children, raising them, and supporting their husband can only be done by women."

Eva: "Are you trying to say that there's no need for a woman to do things like work and study?"

Krauss: "I wouldn't go that far. It's tiring just talking with an unschooled woman. ...However, women who are too smart are even more tiring. I think that a woman like you, who violently asserts herself, would cause their future husband a lot of trouble."
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Old 2010-10-03, 05:38   Link #17853
Used Can
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One possibility for why Rudolf would chose Asumu instead of Kyrie is because he wanted a partner that would be good at taking care of kids instead of one that's a good business confidante.
I don't think that's all there is to it. Kyrie herself said in EP6 she saw herself as the one in advantage regarding Rudolph's attention, since unlike the other women who wanted him, she had wits. She could be his business partner. However, there was something she couldn't give him, that Asumu did, and that was peace of mind.

I think that makes quite some sense. Smart competent partners are good, but if wits is all they have and that's all they can provide, then they're probably only desirable for business. Once you go back home, you want someone with whom you can relax and be at ease. Someone who cannot soothe your fatigue, or help you relive your stress would be rather undesirable, I guess.

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Old 2010-10-03, 09:38   Link #17854
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by estdesoda View Post
How would the hospital swap explain:

Usiromiya Battler is born from Usiromiya Asumu.

this particular red?
Asumu's baby was born "Ushiromiya Battler". Kyrie's baby was born something else, but was later given the name "Battler" when Rudolf and Asumu confused him with their original baby.

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Originally Posted by Red
and what function would the swap serve, storywise, on who/how/whydunit?
I can see that this gives Kyrie more motive - but, er, she already is mad enough in EP7.
Probably a red herring. Beato only used it the way she did because she wanted to erase Battler at the time, not further the mystery. It doesn't really have a connection to anything right now except the "I'll probably be killed" line, which was also a misdirection.
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Old 2010-10-03, 11:05   Link #17855
TehChron
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Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
If the baby swap was accidental, what did Rudolf want to discuss with his "I'll probably be killed tonight" comment?
If it was the baby switch, how did he find out about it, and why was he reluctant to talk about it?
Have we considered the possibility that it was tongue-in-cheek?

I mean, Kyrie as a wife would be downright frightening as hell, especially when angry. Who knows that better than Rudolf?
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Old 2010-10-03, 11:26   Link #17856
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*sigh*
Spoiler for reply to estdesoda:
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Old 2010-10-03, 16:00   Link #17857
Judoh
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I don't think that's all there is to it. Kyrie herself said in EP6 she saw herself as the one in advantage regarding Rudolph's attention, since unlike the other women who wanted him, she had wits. She could be his business partner. However, there was something she couldn't give him, that Asumu did, and that was peace of mind.
Actually I think that is all there is to it. Her thinking she had the advantage was just her pride and she didn't notice when she lost the advantage. She even admits that Asumu was intelligent too just in a different way.

Quote:
Kyrie:"Of course.` ......I knew her well. Ever since the very beginning, before Rudolf-san even knew her name. .........I'm sure she was quite intelligent herself. And cunning. ......I tried to use my intelligence to stick out, ......but she did it in the exactly opposite way."

Jessica: "......By her...stupidity......?"

Kyrie:"*giggle*.........I mean she was good at triggering his protective instinct. Out of all the girls who came to flatter and flirt with him, ......only she stood out with every action she made, unlike the flashy girls Rudolf-san had tired of."

Kyrie had thought that she had Rudolf all to herself by taking the role of his business partner.

......That might have been due to her pride.And, it might have been her arrogance in trying to eliminate the relationships the other girls had with Rudolf.

Perhaps she sometimes tried too hard as a business partner, putting too much pressure on him, regardless of the fact that it was justified.

Bit by bit, Rudolf had started to need a woman who could stay quiet and soothe him, ......without making him think about anything complicated.

.........That woman was Asumu.

Kyrie:"I am ruthless and intellectual. Rational and economical. ......In a plank of Carneades situation, I would push the other person off without hesitation. ......I thought that was the kind of partner suitable for him."

However, though that ruthlessness had made her reliable on the business side of things.........It might have disturbed Rudolf deeply outside of business.

At some point, ......though Rudolf still acknowledged Kyrie's skill, he began to yearn for a quiet, warm acceptance. Asumu had satisfied all of those conditions. She would never talk about anything complicated.
Even if he did, she would just shake her head to say she didn't know.

However, she would care more for him physically than anyone else, quietly putting a blanket on him and staying by his side until morning...

Kyrie:"......Yes, I did get the position of his business partner. .....But before I knew it, ......Rudolf-san had grown a need for a mental partner, someone who could heal his heart. Though I foolishly claimed to be the intellectual one, I never noticed."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
I think that makes quite some sense. Smart competent partners are good, but if wits is all they have and that's all they can provide, then they're probably only desirable for business. Once you go back home, you want someone with whom you can relax and be at ease. Someone who cannot soothe your fatigue, or help you relive your stress would be rather undesirable, I guess.
That's exactly the thought process I was suggesting for him.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-10-03 at 16:13.
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Old 2010-10-03, 20:53   Link #17858
estdesoda
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Old 2010-10-03, 21:16   Link #17859
Judoh
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Er, what "serveral episodes" are you referring to? Sorry, I do not recall them.

Thank you in advance if you may kindly remind me of those scenes that I was
ignorant of. Obviously, I don't remember much about them discussion the matter regarding to Kinzo possibly being dead before coming to the island, or else I won't put up the idea of hiring fake Battler to make Kinzo happy, eh?
There are a series of scenes in episode 5 showing the adults suspicions before the conference takes place. After Kyrie's conversation with Rudolf about Krauss there is a scene where Hideyoshi suggests Kinzo is dead to Eva and he eventually convinces her of the possibility. Later Rudolf calls Rosa about a meeting between the siblings, and convinces Rosa to come by saying Eva will be there leading to the family conference's talk about Kinzo and the inheritance. The fact that almost every episode state that Kinzo has been estimated to have 3 months to live for quite a few years doesn't hurt the chances of them figuring it out either. There are probably some things I missed too.
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Old 2010-10-03, 21:51   Link #17860
navitaro
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There is something I do not understand, if the secret opening says no knox or dine, and Dlanor and Virgilia recognized this, why since Dlanor appeared why Battler and Erika's theories had to follow the decalogue.
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