AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2010-10-12, 22:42   Link #18081
ameskitty
Kupo
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Sleeping
Age: 23
I've actually had a theory in my head going around for a while (heck, I was floating here out of procrastination to post it today) that the intent of Beatrice's game all along was to have multiple answers. To not divert the hot topic at hand too much, I'll summarize it and say that most of my basis is coming from Battler's inability to come up with a solution to the locked room in EP6 despite knowing the "answer", the way "truth" is explained as a theme, and, well, a bit of disappointment with EP7's culprit :/.

This would actually be a really good way to illustrate something like that, especially with Game Master Battler as the protagonist. Hmm.

I'm really excited, actually, even if it does seem kind of "gimmicky". I enjoy games with choices, and none of the ones I've played have been logic-based. If only I weren't going on vacation the weekend it's coming out . And then I'll get frustrated and be tempted to look at the guide that will definitely exist by that time.

My bets are on the character being Battler (85%), Yasushkanontrice, pick one or all (10%), or the culprit (5%).

EDIT: I'd definitely prefer there being an "absolute" answer (one that's clearly marked as what actually happened), but at this point I'm doubting it :/.
__________________

Avatar adapted from Yoshitaka Amano art

"There is no such thing as a sexy George." - Rhiannon, Easy A
ameskitty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-10-13, 06:58   Link #18082
Used Can
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
This is why I used to love Tomino. "You want a happy end? Ahahahahahaha...! No."

Anyway, I don't think R07 ever wanted a really sad end. Sure, Umineko was never set to have a perfect end like Higurashi, but I guess it was always set to end with some... hope. Not as in, hope people can be revived, but hope for those who are still living, to carry on with their lives.

But, either way, I'm still sticking to my "look at the truth from different angles" idea. I think that's what R07 is aiming for, rather than a "you decide". Of course, if there are happy ends to those scenarios, they'd probably be the same as Lion's world - as in, it exists as a possibility, but in the reality we're working on, it doesn't. The reality we're working on has a truth set in stone, and I believe looking at this reality from different angles, will allow us to watch the big picture.

According to R07, EP7 marked the end of the mystery related portion of Umineko. We've got the whodunit, the howdunit and the whydunit. So, in that regard, the mystery is over. However, it's been made quite clear that there's more than just solving this as a mystery. understanding people can help us see things on a completely different light, and thus, all the fantasy.
__________________
"The name is Tin; Used is just an alias. I'm everything Shoe Box would like to be." - Used Can of the Aluminium Kingdom
Used Can is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-10-13, 07:06   Link #18083
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Well my prediction is that no matter what will happen "Beatrice and Battler" will not live happily thereafter. So the "bad end" promise could be fulfilled just by that.

There are many things that can go bad in Umineko:

The couples are disbanded.
The killer remain unpunished.
Ange dies.
The Rokkenjima incident can't be avoided.


After Ryuukishi showed in our face that "this story won't have a happy ending" it is almost certain that something will go bad. But that doesn't mean everything will go bad. Personally I believe there will be a mix of bad things and good things.
Also I think that proclamation was a way for Ryuukishi to lower our expectations about a good ending so to surprise us by showing us something very good happening.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-10-13, 08:21   Link #18084
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Bittersweet is fine. Tragic but reflective is fine.

I think we can agree that "everyone lives happily ever after" and "everybody dies" are both unlikely outliers, though.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-10-13, 10:10   Link #18085
ijriims
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: HK, China
Something about the coming EP8, please translate it

Spoiler for To save space:
__________________
Kırie, eléison

Battler, you have already known it, right?

Without Love, it cannot be seen.
ijriims is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-10-13, 10:30   Link #18086
Used Can
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
It's the same thing that was posted earlier, along with what seems to be some fan's (I guess the one who posted that) opinions and expectations.
__________________
"The name is Tin; Used is just an alias. I'm everything Shoe Box would like to be." - Used Can of the Aluminium Kingdom
Used Can is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-10-13, 10:35   Link #18087
Marion
The Great Dine
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Well my prediction is that no matter what will happen "Beatrice and Battler" will not live happily thereafter. So the "bad end" promise could be fulfilled just by that.

There are many things that can go bad in Umineko:

The couples are disbanded.
The killer remain unpunished.
Ange dies.
The Rokkenjima incident can't be avoided.


After Ryuukishi showed in our face that "this story won't have a happy ending" it is almost certain that something will go bad. But that doesn't mean everything will go bad. Personally I believe there will be a mix of bad things and good things.
Also I think that proclamation was a way for Ryuukishi to lower our expectations about a good ending so to surprise us by showing us something very good happening.
The couples being disbanded is fairly inevitable. Unless Yasu thinks they can actually go between Jessica and George being Kanon and Shannon, which they clearly don't want to do (hence the trial in EP 6)

The killer, in a way does remain unpunished, if you believe in 'no multiple universes'. Only Eva knew and she never told anyone.

Ange does die because Juuza eliminates her. Only way I can see this going the other way is if they just pretended she died and he actually let her go live a life somewhere else.

Considering what Bern shows Lion in EP 7 regarding what happens in the latter's universe, it doesn't seem like it can be avoided. If no one finds the gold Yasu blows everyone up. If they do find the gold ACCIDENTS happen and everyone blows up again.
__________________

Sig by nocco
Marion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-10-13, 11:05   Link #18088
~Ayane~
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Quote:
But, either way, I'm still sticking to my "look at the truth from different angles" idea. I think that's what R07 is aiming for, rather than a "you decide". Of course, if there are happy ends to those scenarios, they'd probably be the same as Lion's world - as in, it exists as a possibility, but in the reality we're working on, it doesn't. The reality we're working on has a truth set in stone, and I believe looking at this reality from different angles, will allow us to watch the big picture.

well you know, i see it like that,
basically, if people want a murder mystery, thats cool, because there are undeniably worlds in which tragedy occurs and there is no changing it and people of these worlds are dead, so you all should be happy.
But if Ryu will let us achieve a happy ending i dont see any reason to not treat that worlds equally to the worlds in which people die. After all, just because the story was based around the world in which massacre happens and a lot of people come to treat only this world as true, there was never stated that there is only one true reality.
And i would be happy with something like that, really

Quote:
Something about the coming EP8, please translate it
lol@google

Quote:
結構やらしい選択肢。
Choice fairly ecchi.
~Ayane~ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-10-13, 12:02   Link #18089
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Hasn't stated, but has strongly hinted. So far, only one piece of evidence hasn't pointed to the idea that there is one canonical future (event happens, Eva survives). Lion's world is specifically stated to be alternative (and Will may go so far as to call it a fantasy, in a good way), and trollishly suggested to have an identical outcome (though it wouldn't necessarily be exactly the same even if it played out like we expect).

"Of course," you might say, "but just because some existences are in-fiction-fiction and the 'real world' is said to be but one of those existences doesn't make the 'real world' any less fictional. After all, it's all contained in a story."

And you'd be right. I don't know if that's the point ryukishi wants to make (he may have already made it, in ep6), but he could make it if he wanted to. However, for a supposed sequel to a many-realities story, Umineko has gone to great lengths to dodge that idea. Even when fragments of reality are most prominently discussed (Bern/Ange in ep4, Bern/Battler/Lambda in ep5, Bern/Will/Lion in ep7), there is a degree of ambiguity.
  • Lambda asks if anyone came back to Ange; was she just saying that to point out that Bern can't help her particular reality, or mocking the idea of changing the past?
  • Bern seems annoyed by her ability to select fragments in ep5, and in ep6, Battler seems limited to constructing his game from fragments that will produce an "appropriate" story. If alternatives existed that could give either exactly the outcome that they wanted (and if Bern could find a reality that gave her the exact info she needed, I don't doubt she'd find it), surely they'd prefer those. So there appear to be some kind of limitations, which is odd, as it suggests some aspects of reality (per a many-worlds theory) are fixed, which was somewhat the opposite of Higurashi's intentions.
  • Bern freely admits to have grossly altered the initial conditions needed to create Lion's world; however, her objective was never really stated to produce a story along the same parameters as Beatrice. The world is structured as an alternative, Will's investigation frequently turns up contradictions or gap-filling information, and Will fights in defense of a happy ending and against a brutal "fantasy."
All of these things can be read as evidence in favor of multiple realities; alternatively, however, they can be read as evidence that the "other worlds" of Umineko are constructed differently from Higurashi. Exactly how different is a matter of interpretation. And there's the elephant in the room of the meta-world, and what that is in the first place.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-10-13, 12:16   Link #18090
Used Can
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
The way I see it, whilst Lion's world can be called an alternate reality, it'd probably be better described as a "what if" sort of world. Of course, there could be an actual alternate reality in which the Lion Ushiromiya from the scenario we saw in EP7 does exist. However, as far as the reality we're dealing with, or in other words, as far as Umineko is concerned, Lion's world is just a "what if" scenario.

If the whole deal about choices in EP8 plays out the way I think it will, the endings for each character, other than the true one, in my opinion, would be the same as the Lion scenario we saw in EP7 - i.e. a "what if" world.
__________________
"The name is Tin; Used is just an alias. I'm everything Shoe Box would like to be." - Used Can of the Aluminium Kingdom
Used Can is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-10-13, 12:33   Link #18091
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
I think it is possible that Lion's world is a world that came from Yasu's fervid imagination. S/he might have thought at a certain point about what would have been her life if Natsuhi didn't refuse him/her. Since Yasu goes to a great length in imagining stuff in her ideal world, it is possible that s/he imagined everything to the minimal details.

The result could be the world we have seen, although certain elements like the incident happening anyway or Battler's absence cannot be explained by that alone.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-10-13, 16:33   Link #18092
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Lion seemed a bit surprised by Bern's claim that the incident would happen anyway, so if he/she had any knowledge of the parameters behind that scenario's creation, that part was a surprise introduced (or revealed, or invented) by Bern.

Of course one can argue whether Lion is Yasu in the sense of mental continuity too. It feels more like Bern was pulling that one out of her rear though.

"Oh yes, everyone suddenly decided they didn't like the established headship procedure, so Kinzo let them solve the epitaph and everybody got shot and asploded. LOL!"

No wonder Will thought it was crap.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-10-13, 18:33   Link #18093
Sentou
Ace Detective
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: MIA
Everytime I think I've caught up with Umineko, it throws me for a loop.

Seems like they'll be one final brawl, and it'll be up to us to settle this. Sort of.

What the hell. This should be fun.
Sentou is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-10-13, 19:04   Link #18094
chounokoe
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Düsseldorf, Germany
Age: 30
Send a message via MSN to chounokoe Send a message via Skype™ to chounokoe
By the way, I don't know if this was mentioned before, but it never said that all answers to the mystery have been answered.
The only thing that was said was:
Quote:
EP7がミステリーとしての物語の終わり。
Which says that EP7 marked the end of the story as a mystery story. That just means that there will be no more mysteries offered during EP8...like in a resolution in a detective story.
__________________
愛が無ければ・・・視えない!!
chounokoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-10-13, 19:16   Link #18095
Will Wright
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by chounokoe View Post
By the way, I don't know if this was mentioned before, but it never said that all answers to the mystery have been answered.
The only thing that was said was:

Which says that EP7 marked the end of the story as a mystery story. That just means that there will be no more mysteries offered during EP8...like in a resolution in a detective story.
Wait what?
I didn't even bother reading the original interview, but now you got me curious.

gamisuteri... uh...toshiteno...something something..wait, I got that one. DON'T TELL ME. Uh...
Monogotari no wari.
End of the mystery story. OH HEY I ACTUALLY GOT IT RIGHT.

...I really need to stop slacking off and go back to studying Japanese. Reading the interview seriously took me like 15 minutes.

It's an interesting point, it doesn't say that the story is over as much as it says that we have "all the clues" needed to solve it. Something like "the mystery is done. Solve it." which would make sense with everything he said so far.
Will Wright is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-10-13, 19:41   Link #18096
Sentou
Ace Detective
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: MIA
I'm expecting the following for episode eight, if it is a resolution like a standard detective story is.

1. The culprit. No, not Yasu, someone else. We're playing as Battler, and we have all the tools to solve this. There may or may not be ONE MORE element we have to consider, a person behind everything, who we will have to work against.

2. Survival. While Eva's fate may be the only true version of events, the only character who is CONFIRMED to be dead is Maria. Everyone else could be drinking brewskis in San Francisco for all we know. Pretty much, the detective of episode 8 should be able to, you know, survive.

3. Justice. 15 people more or less died. No bad people? I doubt it, unless Shroedinger was right about the ACCIDENTS. There's some evil here, and it should be corrected and solved for in some form.

4. Unintentionally Hilarious Bad Ends. If I don't get an ending where Krauss is falsely "outed" as a criminal mastermind I will be disappointed.
Sentou is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-10-13, 19:45   Link #18097
TehChron
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentou View Post
I'm expecting the following for episode eight, if it is a resolution like a standard detective story is.

1. The culprit. No, not Yasu, someone else. We're playing as Battler, and we have all the tools to solve this. There may or may not be ONE MORE element we have to consider, a person behind everything, who we will have to work against.

2. Survival. While Eva's fate may be the only true version of events, the only character who is CONFIRMED to be dead is Maria. Everyone else could be drinking brewskis in San Francisco for all we know. Pretty much, the detective of episode 8 should be able to, you know, survive.

3. Justice. 15 people more or less died. No bad people? I doubt it, unless Shroedinger was right about the ACCIDENTS. There's some evil here, and it should be corrected and solved for in some form.

4. Unintentionally Hilarious Bad Ends. If I don't get an ending where Krauss is falsely "outed" as a criminal mastermind I will be disappointed.
Only if it uses Alchemist's Krauss model for that ending. And it turns out he was really embezzling the family fortune to create a giant "laser" with which to enforce his rights to his lunar holdings.

Also add on to that list the "sad"-but-necessary George vs. Battler face-off featuring DreamEndDischarger playing during the scene, complete with contextual choice nodes to determine the outcome of the fight.
TehChron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-10-13, 19:54   Link #18098
~Ayane~
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I think it is possible that Lion's world is a world that came from Yasu's fervid imagination. S/he might have thought at a certain point about what would have been her life if Natsuhi didn't refuse him/her. Since Yasu goes to a great length in imagining stuff in her ideal world, it is possible that s/he imagined everything to the minimal details.

The result could be the world we have seen, although certain elements like the incident happening anyway or Battler's absence cannot be explained by that alone.
I think the whole Umineko happened in the mind of a mackarel 5 second after its head was sliced off by Kumasawa as a ultimate deathwish for the family that caused its death and ate it.
( isnt it overthinking)

btw, isnt there somewhere more complex translation of this interview?
~Ayane~ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-10-13, 19:57   Link #18099
Marion
The Great Dine
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentou View Post
I'm expecting the following for episode eight, if it is a resolution like a standard detective story is.

1. The culprit. No, not Yasu, someone else. We're playing as Battler, and we have all the tools to solve this. There may or may not be ONE MORE element we have to consider, a person behind everything, who we will have to work against.

2. Survival. While Eva's fate may be the only true version of events, the only character who is CONFIRMED to be dead is Maria. Everyone else could be drinking brewskis in San Francisco for all we know. Pretty much, the detective of episode 8 should be able to, you know, survive.

3. Justice. 15 people more or less died. No bad people? I doubt it, unless Shroedinger was right about the ACCIDENTS. There's some evil here, and it should be corrected and solved for in some form.

4. Unintentionally Hilarious Bad Ends. If I don't get an ending where Krauss is falsely "outed" as a criminal mastermind I will be disappointed.
1) If you played EP 7 it's clear that there is no real culprit. Yasu is the closest thing to it, as she has the intention to blow up all of Rokkenjima and goes around killing everyone after midnight when no one finds the gold. Kyrie becomes the culprit if the gold is found by the family members. But since Yasu seems to be the atoning villain we have to feel sympathy for (which I will never understand, sorry) then Kyrie is considered the overall Big Bad.

2) Except the bomb blew up and the Rokkenjima Incident occurred. If what Bern showed in EP 7 is true then Kyrie and Rudolf killed everyone else before being killed by Eva. The only one who may be excused from this is Battler, who just sort of disappears when he goes to see Rudolf in the chapel. Eva didn't mention seeing him, so he's the only one who might have escaped.

3) It was ACCIDENTS though (again if we are to believe Bern's scenario)
__________________

Sig by nocco
Marion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-10-13, 20:03   Link #18100
Will Wright
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by TehChron View Post
Only if it uses Alchemist's Krauss model for that ending. And it turns out he was really embezzling the family fortune to create a giant "laser" with which to enforce his rights to his lunar holdings.

Also add on to that list the "sad"-but-necessary George vs. Battler face-off featuring DreamEndDischarger playing during the scene, complete with contextual choice nodes to determine the outcome of the fight.
->Throw turkey up in the air
->Punch George's chin while he gets distracted by the turkey
->Step on his stomach
->Proclaim the stomach's independence from Japan and start a new game where Battler plays Lelouch.

Best route possible.

Quote:
3) It was ACCIDENTS though (again if we are to believe Bern's scenario)
It wasn't. Bern defeated Will's Van Dine arsenal so even her scenario couldn't have been an accident.

Last edited by Will Wright; 2010-10-13 at 20:19.
Will Wright is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 23:55.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.