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Old 2010-10-27, 10:08   Link #18201
AuraTwilight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Casey
I don't think it should be forgotten that Jessica abandoned Battler when they were children, or that the ritual to ressurect Beatrice never would have succeeded without her help.
Mind explaining what you're talking about?

Quote:
Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura
Generally speaking I think that logic is dead wrong because it's likely exactly the opposite, Ryukishi's seemingly trying to make us have sympathy for the culprit (and thus likely understand that others might be people who deserves to be killed).
Er...no? He's not trying to say people deserve to be killed or that the culprit is somehow in the right. Really, so far, all he's made an effort to do is make us feel sympathy for Beatrice, while heavily implying she's actually innocent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Used Can
So, Battler was actually fucking Kinzo?
Dude, what did you think the "blue stakes" represented?

Though this leads to the conclusion that he also fucked Beatrice and Erika...

And that the Sisters of Purgatory are dickgirls...

And that's awwight.
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Old 2010-10-27, 12:12   Link #18202
UsagiTenpura
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Er...no? He's not trying to say people deserve to be killed or that the culprit is somehow in the right. Really, so far, all he's made an effort to do is make us feel sympathy for Beatrice, while heavily implying she's actually innocent.
Nonsense. I am uncertain if anyone deserve to be killed or not, but with the negative light so many characters are portrayed at various times it's a definite possibility (that either the culprit or Beatrice feels that way), but that we're only supposed to feel sympathy for Beatrice is just nonsense. The serie went out of it's way to show us how Ange ended up feeling sympathy for someone like Kasumi, so I don't know what you've been reading.
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Old 2010-10-27, 13:01   Link #18203
AuraTwilight
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Okay, I worded that wrong. What I meant is that he tried to make us feel sorry for Beatrice, not the serial killer, necessarily. The statement had no bearing on entities such as Rosa, Kasumi, etcetera.
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Old 2010-10-27, 15:39   Link #18204
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Dude, what did you think the "blue stakes" represented?

Though this leads to the conclusion that he also fucked Beatrice and Erika...

And that the Sisters of Purgatory are dickgirls...

And that's awwight.
Okay, what the fuck? Battler was fucking Kinzo? Along with Beatrice and Erika? You mean mindfucking right? That's kinda hard to believe and why would he be? I don't get it....
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Old 2010-10-27, 15:46   Link #18205
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Okay this is seriously exagerating, these boards aren't 4chan, and used to have some level of etiquette, seems like nearly everyone who talks like that joined october 2010, not too surprising I guess, but this is really just going too far.
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Old 2010-10-27, 17:40   Link #18206
AuraTwilight
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Except Used Can has been here longer than you. You really need to quit it with your snide little attitude, it's more impolite than anything else I've seen so far. (By the way I've been lurking for nearly two years)
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Old 2010-10-27, 18:59   Link #18207
Cao Ni Ma
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Look at my e-peen look at it! I swear its huge!
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Old 2010-10-27, 19:07   Link #18208
AuraTwilight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oblivion0101 View Post
Okay, what the fuck? Battler was fucking Kinzo? Along with Beatrice and Erika? You mean mindfucking right? That's kinda hard to believe and why would he be? I don't get it....
The joke was that dragon metaphors were used to sensor sex scenes in another visual Novel, adding unfortunate implications to the scene where Battler fought Dragon!Kinzo, and continuing from that, the stakes he fought with as Blue Truth....well, stakes + Pretty girls he fought in debates and hurt...stakes = Freudian.

And going by that, Stakes of Purgatory....
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Old 2010-10-27, 23:47   Link #18209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
The joke was that dragon metaphors were used to sensor sex scenes in another visual Novel, adding unfortunate implications to the scene where Battler fought Dragon!Kinzo, and continuing from that, the stakes he fought with as Blue Truth....well, stakes + Pretty girls he fought in debates and hurt...stakes = Freudian.

And going by that, Stakes of Purgatory....
Just became the best thing about the series.

Oh the implications of that in light of the Valentine's and White Day TIPS.
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Old 2010-10-28, 13:06   Link #18210
Glass Heart
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Well, I only know the anime series and some complementary informations from the visual-novels, but I have a theory and I would like to know if it could contradict what you know from chapters 5 to 7.

Spoiler:


What do you think of it ? Does it work with latter chapters ?

PS: Sorry if my english isn't that good, I really tried my best.

Last edited by Glass Heart; 2010-10-28 at 17:12.
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Old 2010-10-28, 15:05   Link #18211
AuraTwilight
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Quote:
My theory is that meta-Beatrice is the fruit of Maria's imagination. She strongly believes in Beatrice and knows the occult pretty well.
Maria strongly believes that the witch Beatrice committed the murders, is laughing at Battler (who doesn't believe at all in Beatrice) each time he is unable to explain how a murder was performed, and when Battler seems pretty confident that the witch has nothing to do with it, she seems offended.
To avoid as many spoilers as possible, let me just say that Meta-Beatrice represents an individual that actually exists, and it has to do with Battler's sin.

Quote:
And Maria and meta-Beatrice have the same objective: to make Battler surrender to Beatrice and to the belief that witches are real.
Beatrice's objective is actually different from that. As observable in EP4, she's actually playing to lose.

Quote:
One important element is the question of multiple identities. Someone was recognized as Kinzo (chapter 4) and someone was recognized as Beatrice (chapter 2) by the family members.

It is very likely that Maria herited from Kinzo her strong interest in the occult and her will to see the revival of Beatrice.

It may seem a little awkward but Maria could have been recognized as "Kinzo" (or, in fact, as the heir of the family and heiress of Kinzo's will), when culprit X would be recognized as the real Beatrice.

In the end of chapter 4, "Kinzo" also recognizes Maria as his heiress, before being killed by Beatrice (culprit X). It could be a metaphor implying that Maria helped culprit X but was nonetheless murdered by him.
Er...Maria can't be "Kinzo" because she was with Battler and the other cousins the whole time. Who is the "Kinzo" who appeared before the adults, killed them, took them hostage, and administered the tests?

Quote:
And Beatrice was destroyed by Battler shortly after Maria rejected her, thanks to Ange.
Beatrice wasn't destroyed, and Maria didn't reject her. Though I should probably tell you that in EP1 of the visual novel, Bernkastel describes Beatrice as "a personification of the rules of this world" and in EP5, adds on to this. Basically, while Maria contributes, she's only one factor; Beatrice represents the mystery itself, and as long as a part of the truth is hidden, she can exist. Have you ever heard of the "God of the Gaps" argument? Beatrice is basically this.

Other than that, this is all pretty good, and don't worry about your English, it's fantastic. I'd highly recommend skimming the Visual Novel's first four episodes to elaborate on the anime's very brief and uninformative version of things, and then move on to 5 and onwards.
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Old 2010-10-28, 15:29   Link #18212
Cao Ni Ma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Beatrice's objective is actually different from that. As observable in EP4, she's actually playing to lose.
This is one of the issues I have with Beatrice's character, if you could interpret her actions as protecting the culprit. Why is she playing to lose then? She can only lose to Battler and only if he finds the absolute truth of who the culprit is and how he/she commits the crimes.

You could argue that Beatrice wants Battler to hate her instead of the culprit but why make the game solvable then if it would eventually lead to the culprit. Or why engage in the game anyways, she could have left Battler ignorant in his death, ignorant is bliss as they say.

Maybe someone asked for the truth to be revealed and in so binds Beatrice's to do so.
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Old 2010-10-28, 15:38   Link #18213
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It could be the "betting on a miracle" metaphor. Beatrice will not/cannot provide Battler with the truth and will in fact act to keep it from him, but the solvability remains as a method by which he could find the truth, on the one-in-a-million odds that he is actually able to do so.

Although read as a dialectic figure Meta-Beatrice is playing to lose because Battler's perception of Beatrice is a misinterpretation of facts which "she" (that is, the individual/idea/etc. she represents) wishes for him to overcome to attain the "true" picture. Hegel would have some things to say about ep6-7.
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Old 2010-10-28, 16:35   Link #18214
musouka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
This is one of the issues I have with Beatrice's character, if you could interpret her actions as protecting the culprit. Why is she playing to lose then? She can only lose to Battler and only if he finds the absolute truth of who the culprit is and how he/she commits the crimes.

You could argue that Beatrice wants Battler to hate her instead of the culprit but why make the game solvable then if it would eventually lead to the culprit. Or why engage in the game anyways, she could have left Battler ignorant in his death, ignorant is bliss as they say.

Maybe someone asked for the truth to be revealed and in so binds Beatrice's to do so.
As far as I understand it, Beatrice has two completely different goals that are being served by the same method.

1. She wants Battler to figure out her mystery.
2. She wants to keep what really happened under wraps forever.

The point is never for Battler to find out the truth of what happened on the island, the point is for Battler to discover her existence and understand her motivation. That's why the answer to her mystery isn't the same as "who killed the people on the island."
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Old 2010-10-28, 16:56   Link #18215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
To avoid as many spoilers as possible, let me just say that Meta-Beatrice represents an individual that actually exists, and it has to do with Battler's sin.



Beatrice's objective is actually different from that. As observable in EP4, she's actually playing to lose.



Er...Maria can't be "Kinzo" because she was with Battler and the other cousins the whole time. Who is the "Kinzo" who appeared before the adults, killed them, took them hostage, and administered the tests?



Beatrice wasn't destroyed, and Maria didn't reject her. Though I should probably tell you that in EP1 of the visual novel, Bernkastel describes Beatrice as "a personification of the rules of this world" and in EP5, adds on to this. Basically, while Maria contributes, she's only one factor; Beatrice represents the mystery itself, and as long as a part of the truth is hidden, she can exist. Have you ever heard of the "God of the Gaps" argument? Beatrice is basically this.

Other than that, this is all pretty good, and don't worry about your English, it's fantastic. I'd highly recommend skimming the Visual Novel's first four episodes to elaborate on the anime's very brief and uninformative version of things, and then move on to 5 and onwards.
In spoiler, could you tell me what Battler's sin is, please ?

Spoiler:


Anyway, thanks for your answers !
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Old 2010-10-28, 16:57   Link #18216
Cao Ni Ma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musouka View Post
As far as I understand it, Beatrice has two completely different goals that are being served by the same method.

1. She wants Battler to figure out her mystery.
2. She wants to keep what really happened under wraps forever.

The point is never for Battler to find out the truth of what happened on the island, the point is for Battler to discover her existence and understand her motivation. That's why the answer to her mystery isn't the same as "who killed the people on the island."
Interesting, but could you reach the first statement without reaching the second one? Actually thinking about it this would make Beatrice the person seem a whole lot nicer. You could argue that the money in the envelopes that she sent was used to qualm whatever desires the adults would want and remove their reasons to commit a crime. But why use such a contrived method to send it?
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Old 2010-10-28, 17:47   Link #18217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
Interesting, but could you reach the first statement without reaching the second one?
Yes, that's the entire point. Let me put use this example. Someone wants to put on a murder mystery dinner theater and wrote out a complete script. Somehow, everyone that was at dinner died. Looking at the script of the dinner will only tell you what the author had in mind, it won't tell you what actually happened at dinner that night.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
Actually thinking about it this would make Beatrice the person seem a whole lot nicer. You could argue that the money in the envelopes that she sent was used to qualm whatever desires the adults would want and remove their reasons to commit a crime. But why use such a contrived method to send it?
This is one of the things that remains a mystery. Personally, I don't think anyone was actually supposed to literally die until the bomb went off. The money on the cards was used as bribes to make everyone go along with her fictional production. She was planning on doing the exact same thing Kinzo used to do when he couldn't make a difficult decision. She would set the bomb and have a twenty-four hour frame for everything to be decided. If the miracle didn't happen, then everything would blow up. If Battler "found" her, then she would fulfill the last part of the epitaph (since no one had actually died yet) and be free to live her life as a full person instead of "furniture" or a "witch".
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Old 2010-10-28, 19:15   Link #18218
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If Beatrice really wanted to keep everything wrapped forever, she would have better not written any message in the bottles.

The Rokkenjima incident was pretty much closed until someone found the second message. The incident is still a "case closed" for the authorities in 1998. The only things that keep everyone's interest still alive after that much time are those damn messages.

The explosion worked quite efficiently at hiding forever whatever happened on that island, doing more could only worsen the situation. So in the end whoever wrote those messages is either and idiot or someone who doesn't want the world to accept the Rokkenjima incident as a simple incident.
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Old 2010-10-28, 19:23   Link #18219
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Or is writing things which are intentionally not true (I think we can at least accept that none of the message bottles are the true account of the events, if nothing else) in order to convey a message to someone without being all that interested in "the truth."
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I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

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Old 2010-10-28, 20:42   Link #18220
Cao Ni Ma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glass Heart View Post
In spoiler, could you tell me what Battler's sin is, please ?

Anyway, thanks for your answers !
Spoiler:
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