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Old 2010-11-01, 04:02   Link #18261
AuraTwilight
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Dude that's like the only person I've never heard a theory of having six toes for. I've heard Rudolf, Hideyoshi, Kanon, etc. Never Battler. I love you for that!
You've never gone to TVTropes, then.

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What if Battler also inherited the six toe thing from Kinzo? Wouldnt that make it possible for him to be the charred corpse in Episodes 1 and 4? And in that regard, he'd either be like a Sixth Sense type of detective, or also our Battler may just be a fake who's been given that name?

We've never had it confirmed in red that the charred corpse is Kinzo, after all. It just has the identifying feature of those six toes marking him as such.
Eh...I'm sure the body type would be noticably different. "...Hey, why does grandfather's corpse seem really tout and muscular instead of old and looser, etc?"

That, and the Sixth Sense/Not Really Battler ideas are totally stupid.

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But hey the purple eyes argument makes a good point! none of it is really realistic. It's just anime logic. Things like white hair and purples eyes are generally things that mark personality. Purple eyes and white hair generally are there to apply "mystique" or "mysteriousness" to a character. Red eyes on Zombie Kanon is representing "evil" or "the enemy". It doesn't really mean anything it's just there to differentiate people.
It's pretty simple actually.

Brown/Black eyes = Human

Purple = Human/Witch

Blue = Witch

Red = Furniture

Gold = Mystery Rules

Purple/Amber = Bern and Lambda doing their own thing as always.

I'd like to point out that Purple, Red, Gold, and Blue are all the colors we've seen to represent magic and sword slashes and, with the exception of purple (for now) represent Truth colors, as well. Though I suppose we can connect the "black" eyes to the "white" text, too.
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Old 2010-11-01, 08:22   Link #18262
TehChron
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post

Eh...I'm sure the body type would be noticably different. "...Hey, why does grandfather's corpse seem really tout and muscular instead of old and looser, etc?"

That, and the Sixth Sense/Not Really Battler ideas are totally stupid.

Eh, I said it was random.
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Old 2010-11-01, 08:30   Link #18263
Renall
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Still, in at least one episode it's never definitively clear whose corpse, if anyone's, is burned. We know who it cannot be based on who is still alive at the time of discovery, but the possibility is left open as early as ep1 for it to be "someone other than Kinzo."

However, I think it a bit unlikely to be anyone the family explicitly knows. If someone in the immediate family had polydactyly other than Kinzo, one would think somebody would have heard about it. Yet Kinzo is the only such person anyone is aware of. I can't see any good reason to hide that, especially in certain branches of the family (for instance, if Eva or George had it, you'd think Eva would be all about telling everyone about it). So to me it seems like it's either Kinzo or an undisclosed corpse belonging to someone who shares his condition. There are candidates for this role, but they'd all have to probably be long dead.
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Old 2010-11-01, 12:10   Link #18264
Cao Ni Ma
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no corpses exist except those of characters who have appeared in the story

none of the corpses would ever lead to a mistaken autopsy

As the previous user once said, they would have not singled out Kinzo as the person in the boiler room if any other had this condition. Of course, if it was never a corpse to begin with then this wouldn't apply but that would be pushing it.
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Old 2010-11-01, 12:11   Link #18265
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In Episode 4, every corpse except Kanon's appears at the same time as Kinzo's corpse. (Well, it's possible that somebody was still alive after Battler reentered the mansion, redressed one of the early corpses he found and burned that one, hoping that Battler wouldn't notice that a corpse disappeared.) And I'd say Kanon's too small to pass for Kinzo.

And how would a fake corpse really benefit? In episode 3, it would have opened a spot for an 18th person; after episode 4, that's closed.
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Old 2010-11-01, 12:30   Link #18266
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We'd say that, but we can't know that. All we know is the corpse is "someone assumed to be Kinzo, who shares a particular trait with Kinzo." That means it's either Kinzo or someone who shares a trait with him. I'm not suggesting it's a random person or a fake body, just that if it's not Kinzo (and ever since ep1 we've been given that option with Battler's oddly specific non-description of the charred body), it has to be somebody else with polydacytly. And this person is very unlikely to be an Ushiromiya (publically, anyway).

It might be easier to say with surety that it is Kinzo if we even knew that Kinzo's corpse actually exists. Battler himself has "seen" Kinzo only twice, once symbolically, once under very bizarre circumstances. For the corpse burned to be Kinzo's, we must take it for granted that Kinzo still even has a corpse, which goes against what Krauss and Natsuhi are alleged to want. But we honestly don't even know whether it's being kept somewhere, and if it is, where. To say nothing of what condition it might be in.
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Old 2010-11-01, 12:51   Link #18267
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Suppose that, say, Nanjo managed to acquire a corpse of roughly the same size as Kinzo who had polydactyly. (The corpse is a patient who died at the clinic; he gave the victim's family somebody else's ashes.) What difference does that make?
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Old 2010-11-01, 12:52   Link #18268
Cao Ni Ma
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Presentation of evidence. I'll present a corpse which could possibly be identified as Ushiromiya Kinzo's...!!


I guarantee that this corpse is Ushiromiya Kinzo's corpse...!!

We still dont know how the gold truth works, it could be that that it works so long as there is a possibility that it could be truth or that it could be interpreted by the user as the truth. I like to believe that the gold truth is a truth being backed with evidence and thats why its admissible in the witch court even when used by humans.

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Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
Suppose that, say, Nanjo managed to acquire a corpse of roughly the same size as Kinzo who had polydactyly. (The corpse is a patient who died at the clinic; he gave the victim's family somebody else's ashes.) What difference does that make?
no corpses exist except those of characters who have appeared in the story

The corpse must be someone mentioned in the story, it must be one of the 18 persons from the original story. If they drag someone into this then they would have been mentioned or at least inferred to have exist. Hell it could be Rosa's love interest!
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Old 2010-11-01, 13:01   Link #18269
Will Wright
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Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
In Episode 4, every corpse except Kanon's appears at the same time as Kinzo's corpse. (Well, it's possible that somebody was still alive after Battler reentered the mansion, redressed one of the early corpses he found and burned that one, hoping that Battler wouldn't notice that a corpse disappeared.) And I'd say Kanon's too small to pass for Kinzo.

And how would a fake corpse really benefit? In episode 3, it would have opened a spot for an 18th person; after episode 4, that's closed.
Assuming that Kanon and Shannon are both real and one of them died before the start of the game, and that Shkanon is at play during the game but not before(which would allow Jessica and co not to be legally retarded) it would allow for a 17th person to exist in the game.

...Hell I'm gonna run with that theory. Double Shkanon 1.5!

Kanon=Real
Shannon=Real

Kanon=Dead at the start of the game
Shannon=Alive at the start of the game, becomes Kanon for whatever reason

Okay, let's think about this logically:

-The game has 17 people
-With Shkanon, the game goes down to 16 people.

There are three possibilities based on that line of events.

1)Shkanon is real, there are 16 people plus one mysterious person. Let's go ahead and say that the mysterious person is Beatrice.

Hell, it could even be the boat captain. He was technically introduced at an early part of the novel.

Or if you want to REALLY stretch this theory, it could be an unknown character who was not the culprit, but an accomplice. Dine/Knox/everything say that the culprit must be mentioned at an early part of the story, but there is no such a rule about accomplices.

2)Double Shkanon. Kanon and Shannon both exist in the gameboard, but once one of them dies the other becomes both.

3)Shkanon is not real at all.

...Of course, there is stupid option number 4.

4)Ryuukishi thinks that they count as different people because THEY ARE BOTH CAPABLE OF LOVING.
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Old 2010-11-01, 13:06   Link #18270
Cao Ni Ma
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I love the idea of Shannon faking her death in EP3 and then switching her clothes and running to the chapel once the entourage finishes examining her so that they can witness Kanon dead as well.

Last edited by Cao Ni Ma; 2010-11-01 at 13:48.
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Old 2010-11-01, 13:54   Link #18271
AuraTwilight
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Kanon=Dead at the start of the game
Shannon=Alive at the start of the game, becomes Kanon for whatever reason
No one can take Kanon's name except for Kanon himself.

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(which would allow Jessica and co not to be legally retarded)
It doesn't necessarily mean someone is stupid for being tricked by Shkanon. Maybe Yasu's just that fucking good, or, you know, Pieces are supernaturally compelled to act in a specific manner by the Gamemaster, so derp.

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4)Ryuukishi thinks that they count as different people because THEY ARE BOTH CAPABLE OF LOVING.
If they count as different people, it's probably because of Multiple Personality.

Or, more likely, Yasu's the one making the rules for the game, and she personally believes that Shannon and Kanon count as real due to her psycho identity complex.

I do find it very notable that EP3 is the only arc, ever, where the corpses of both Shannon and Kanon are seen, and even then not together.
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Old 2010-11-01, 14:24   Link #18272
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
no corpses exist except those of characters who have appeared in the story

The corpse must be someone mentioned in the story, it must be one of the 18 persons from the original story. If they drag someone into this then they would have been mentioned or at least inferred to have exist. Hell it could be Rosa's love interest!
Beatrice-2 is a character who has appeared in the story. She's also been presented as the child of Kinzo, so she could have inherited his polydactyly. It's been a long time since she died, but Kinzo could have had her embalmed after her body was discovered, and it was explicitly stated that the gender of the burnt corpse couldn't be determined.
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Old 2010-11-01, 14:29   Link #18273
Judoh
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You've never gone to TVTropes, then.
I guess I just didn't remember then



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It's pretty simple actually.

Brown/Black eyes = Human

Purple = Human/Witch

Blue = Witch

Red = Furniture

Gold = Mystery Rules

Purple/Amber = Bern and Lambda doing their own thing as always.

I'd like to point out that Purple, Red, Gold, and Blue are all the colors we've seen to represent magic and sword slashes and, with the exception of purple (for now) represent Truth colors, as well. Though I suppose we can connect the "black" eyes to the "white" text, too.
Oh on the contrary. I beleive I was one of the people who originally pointed out Ryukishi seemed to like to color code his characters like that when I noticed the stakes had red suits and the Eiserne Jungfrau had blue ones. and Kylon and me came up with most of these. In fact I think it was him who pointed out that George is pretty much represented by black/white text. Along with Kinzo too probably. Black hair, Black shirt, white tie, black eyes and a yellow suit. Clever no?

That and purple might mean something similar to white text if we take into account the colors used for both Siesta 556 and Zepar.
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Old 2010-11-01, 14:31   Link #18274
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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
Presentation of evidence. I'll present a corpse which could possibly be identified as Ushiromiya Kinzo's...!!
Yes, but he also says there's no way to make a positive identification. A corpse which isn't Kinzo's still might be identified as Kinzo's. It would be an incorrect identification, but it would satisfy the presentation of evidence. However, "this is evidence that Kinzo's corpse could exist (as this corpse)" is quite different from "this is evidence that this corpse is Kinzo's corpse."
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I guarantee that this corpse is Ushiromiya Kinzo's corpse...!!

We still dont know how the gold truth works, it could be that that it works so long as there is a possibility that it could be truth or that it could be interpreted by the user as the truth. I like to believe that the gold truth is a truth being backed with evidence and thats why its admissible in the witch court even when used by humans.
Perfect lie or accepted/constructed fictional truth appears to be where the gold is trending after three episodes of use. My guess is that Battler cannot actually "guarantee" the corpse's identity, but there exists no red which can break his claim as (by his own admission) there is no way a corpse can be conclusively identified. Where that crops up, a Game Master is free to make it the accepted story.
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Old 2010-11-01, 15:22   Link #18275
Cao Ni Ma
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My guess is that Battler cannot actually "guarantee" the corpse's identity, but there exists no red which can break his claim as (by his own admission) there is no way a corpse can be conclusively identified. Where that crops up, a Game Master is free to make it the accepted story.
How would Battler know there isn't any red truth that could counter this?
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Old 2010-11-01, 15:55   Link #18276
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How would Battler know there isn't any red truth that could counter this?
Because He Is The Game Master Now(tm).

Seriously, I think it's just a pulled-out-of-ass resolution to an impossible situation. Ryukishi writes himself into a corner and invents a new colored text to get out of it. Then realizes he has to shoehorn it in later so we don't protest, which is why it's so anemic and anti-climactic in its later uses.

It could also be viewed as a bluff, but the sort of bluff a GM is permitted to take (which is why Lambda is willing to accept it as valid). After all, Battler knows it can't be identified as Kinzo, so he's guessing it probably can't be objectively identified at all, which allows him to say "since Kinzo is dead, and this corpse can't be identified as Kinzo definitively, I'll guarantee it is because I know you lack the only two kinds of evidence which can dispute it: Another body that is definitely his, or a means to prove this body is somebody else."

EDIT: Note that this is also a semi-intentional misuse of gold text if indeed that is what gold text is. It's not actually tightening the story by creating a mutually-agreeable narrative from uncertain facts ("it would be a pain in the ass to have to identify that this is Kinzo, so just assume it is Kinzo and I'll write accordingly"), but wriggling out of a trap by narrowing the focus of the story such that the problem is circumvented. But if so, that certainly makes Battler more clever than we thought. Or luckier.
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Old 2010-11-01, 16:10   Link #18277
Cao Ni Ma
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The point is that if that was the case it would either involve him knowing just because he was the game master. In which case:

It is forbidden for supernatural agencies to be employed as a detective technique.

or

Battler guessed, got lucky, believed, bluffed, etc. In which case:

It is forbidden for accident or intuition to be employed as a detective technique.
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Old 2010-11-01, 16:19   Link #18278
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No, he Just Knows What To Do(tm) because he's the Game Master. What he did is not supernatural, an accident, or an intuition.

The gold - per this popular theory anyway - is a lie, or if you want to be charitable, a story. Just as everyone got their story straight about the magic bunny rabbits shooting people in ep4, and that became the accepted mutual tale, so too can Battler create a situation in which a matter is not in dispute.

In other words, he can B.S. Lying is not an accident or act of intuition. Making up a fact to trap the culprit is, in fact, completely valid as a detective technique. It's not used all that often in classic mysteries, but it is used and used well. Dangling an inconsistent or outright fabricated fact that you know everyone else will not question but which the culprit has to know is false is a great way to make the culprit incriminate himself.

So Battler abuses this vague notion to extricate himself: Using GM authority, declare that it's generally understood that a corpse otherwise impossible to objectively verify is Kinzo's. It's unlikely anyone would be specifically opposed to this; after all, they've spent the whole game looking for Kinzo's corpse, and now Battler is saying he can present one. But he can't prove it. So what? Everyone will agree with him (imagine, for example, Battler shoving a body into the parlor at the end of ep5 and saying he's found Kinzo; everyone would be inclined to agree if they can't prove otherwise).

Abstracted, the GM can assert that an unprovable fact is an accepted fact through a tacit agreement with the reader. This is identical to two people conspiring to state that a piece of candy under a cup was created by magic. So long as no one else is privy to that construction to dismiss it, it becomes true.

In other words, on the board Battler could say "I saw Grandfather's corpse," and on the higher level Battler could say "I can present a corpse which I will agree with the reader will be Kinzo's so we need not mess with the silliness of proving it."

Essentially this is what happens every time they find Kinzo in the incinerator. Everybody just agrees it's Kinzo even though his polydactyly is the only proof of it. The only person who would know is whoever shoved him in there.
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This story is a redacted confession.

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Old 2010-11-01, 16:47   Link #18279
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Since when is the GM limited to using "detective techniques" anyway?
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Old 2010-11-01, 16:53   Link #18280
Cao Ni Ma
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Since when is the GM limited to using "detective techniques" anyway?
Well if he wasn't limited to them he could just go: Ushiromiya Natsuhi is not the culprit! and end it right there. Knox's second prevented him from doing that and somehow the golden truth allowed him to bypass this.
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