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Old 2010-11-02, 15:32   Link #18321
Renall
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Based on what little sense the rules make, those reds are valid... for Bern's side. If they choose not to use them, Battler isn't permitted to rely on them.

Which is flat-out moronic, of course, but I get the sense he was having trouble writing ep5 cogently and had to do something to drum up tension to bring about the endgame.
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Old 2010-11-02, 15:44   Link #18322
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pikumin View Post
Meta-world, red truth and trolling aside, aren't all the arcs just written works in the world of 1998? The only reason anyone thinks there were any murders at all was because of the message bottles; the first two arcs, which the remaining arcs are based on. Considering this, how do we know there is any truth in any of the arcs at all? especially for the latter arcs, which are written by hachijou; hell, you could even say that Battler's sin is something that hachijou made up herself, since it is in the fourth arc, and nothing hints at him having a sin in the first two arcs.
I can pull out my chart again if you'd like.

If you want an executive summary:
  • We do not know what "the future" is like. However, we have seen roughly only a single 1998. We could possibly assume the true future is that 1998 or at least a world like it.
  • We know that two message bottles with stories were alleged to have been found in this 1998. We are not explicitly told these are Legend and Turn, but everyone (character or reader) seems to assume it.
  • We know that, in ep6 at least, Ange is aware of a person claiming to be Hachijou Tohya who claims to also be Reigonamu (who is alleged to have authored Banquet and Alliance) and the author if End and Dawn. We don't know if any of this is "real," however, because of the Featherine feedback loop.
  • We do not know if Requiem exists at all as an in-universe fiction. Even if we assume that, we have no idea which parts of it are that fiction.
  • We do not know what the content of the fictional works is. Do they contain explicit magic scenes? Meta scenes? Only "board" scenes? Do they contain scenes we don't get to see (particularly ep5 & 6)?
The chart is a little better about it. Essentially, my personal gut instinct is to divide the works into three layers:

Original Work -> Interactivity -> "Episode" Transformation

The episodes we read are the final layer. We call these the "episodes," so when I refer to ep1, ep5, etc. I mean the actual novels we've got to read. They contain everything we see. Board scenes, magic, meta-world, 1998, the works.

When I refer to the works by name - Legend, End, etc. - I am referring to the mythical in-universe works, in whatever format they take. They could be identical to the versions we read, but my personal opinion is they almost certainly aren't.

The question is, how far down the chain do each of those elements go? That is harder to say. If you want my opinion, I suspect the first-order fictions have, at most, the board + magic scenes, but I really am starting to think that they're all like Legend and contain no explicit magical elements. Those are layered in by the in-universe "readers" and interpreters, and their interpretation forms the meta-layer. We're then presented with the whole package at once as though it were a single work. Can I back that up? Only circumstantially, hence my opinion.

Anyway, the in-universe fictions probably have to have been written between 1986 and 1998, but there is always the possibility that ep7 and ep8 come later and the "present" of Umineko is some time in the future. No way to know, except the occasional anachronistic reference by the author (there's one that potentially fixes it as late as 2006, if we ignore the Higurashi stuff and Jessica's concert, but that reference is probably a joke like those things).
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Old 2010-11-02, 16:45   Link #18323
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I thought it was pretty clear that the purpose of the inconsistencies were to show how disrespectful, assholish, childish assholes Bern and company are. They don't care about anything but scribbling all over other people's work, making a mess, breaking the rules, and bullying people, and they don't care if they look stupid and immature doing it.

They're basically sociopaths.
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Old 2010-11-02, 16:47   Link #18324
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I would say that to some degree, meta-scenes and fantasy scenes exist in the mythical in-universe works, since concepts such as "red ink" are brought up, and Hachijou and Ange directly comment on meta-events.
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Old 2010-11-02, 16:56   Link #18325
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
The question is, how far down the chain do each of those elements go? That is harder to say. If you want my opinion, I suspect the first-order fictions have, at most, the board + magic scenes, but I really am starting to think that they're all like Legend and contain no explicit magical elements. Those are layered in by the in-universe "readers" and interpreters, and their interpretation forms the meta-layer. We're then presented with the whole package at once as though it were a single work. Can I back that up? Only circumstantially, hence my opinion.
If the world of 1998 is a written work too, then that might explain how Bern could just randomly jump through time and appear in front of Ange, and it would explain ange's magic scenes too(unless she really is that delluded that she thought she killed Kasumi and her minions, then killed Eva who had come back from hell).
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Old 2010-11-02, 17:20   Link #18326
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Or Ange experienced real magic, since she's not in a Game.
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Old 2010-11-02, 17:22   Link #18327
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Well, she understands that all "magic" requires is a little preparation.
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Old 2010-11-02, 18:25   Link #18328
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It'd be funny if it turns out Ange explicitly told Amakusa to pop some caps. It's the only way her dialogue makes any sense in that scene.

Then they faked her death so they could keep exploring the island.
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Old 2010-11-02, 19:06   Link #18329
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Anyway, the in-universe fictions probably have to have been written between 1986 and 1998, but there is always the possibility that ep7 and ep8 come later and the "present" of Umineko is some time in the future. No way to know, except the occasional anachronistic reference by the author (there's one that potentially fixes it as late as 2006, if we ignore the Higurashi stuff and Jessica's concert, but that reference is probably a joke like those things).
I'm somewhat thinking, tho Higurashi and Touhou are likely nothing more then jokes as you said, can we really say the same about the Siestas? I mean, yeah they mostly seem to be "joke characters" but it sounds like the writer of it has some knowledge of networks and computers. Of course it's not like these things didn't exist in 1986 but I certainly cannot see Shannon having access to that on Rokkenjima.

Another thing that somewhat bothers me relating to the net is... well in 1998 the net wasn't that much, the net that Hachijou and Ange speak about seems like it's more what the net became after 2000s.

Edit: If anything I seriously doubt Hachijou's letters would've gained that fame back then.
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Old 2010-11-02, 19:26   Link #18330
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I'm somewhat thinking, tho Higurashi and Touhou are likely nothing more then jokes as you said, can we really say the same about the Siestas? I mean, yeah they mostly seem to be "joke characters" but it sounds like the writer of it has some knowledge of networks and computers. Of course it's not like these things didn't exist in 1986 but I certainly cannot see Shannon having access to that on Rokkenjima.
The Siestas didn't appear until the third game, and Hachijou had already taken over by then, so Shannon wouldn't have to know anything about computers.

And the Touhou reference isn't a joke, Jessica really is Marisa.
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Old 2010-11-02, 19:33   Link #18331
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The jokes and references to interwebs that are made by the Siestas all existed in 1998; there's no problem there.

As for Touhou, why can't it be some 80's anime, since Higurashi exists as a paperback novel?
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Old 2010-11-02, 19:43   Link #18332
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
I thought it was pretty clear that the purpose of the inconsistencies were to show how disrespectful, assholish, childish assholes Bern and company are. They don't care about anything but scribbling all over other people's work, making a mess, breaking the rules, and bullying people, and they don't care if they look stupid and immature doing it.

They're basically sociopaths.
Its a good thing I hated lolis before Umineko, or else Id have developed a complex of some kind.
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Old 2010-11-02, 19:53   Link #18333
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Well, I think their being children was a big hint to their personalities a loooong time ago. Generally speaking, if you meet an immortal being that takes the form of a child, get the fuck out of there.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...rtalImmaturity
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Old 2010-11-02, 20:05   Link #18334
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Well, I think their being children was a big hint to their personalities a loooong time ago. Generally speaking, if you meet an immortal being that takes the form of a child, get the fuck out of there.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...rtalImmaturity
That doesn't really apply to characters like Hanyuu... not all characters who are immortal beings that take the form of children are deranged/spoiled brats/ bullies/ sociopaths.
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Old 2010-11-02, 20:24   Link #18335
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Actually read the article. It's not about immortals acting like spoiled brats or bullies, it's about bullies acting exactly like their age-appearance, instead of their actual age in years. You can't really argue that Hanyuu doesn't act like a cute kid, and she very rarely acts like someone who's been around for hundreds of years.

Rika would be the one who subverts the trope, as her mind actually did develop.
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Old 2010-11-02, 20:26   Link #18336
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Ah yeah you're right about the Siestas. Tho I still feel like Hachijou's internet was ahead of it's time. Actually in arc 4 (the parts with Ange in the future) is there any mention of the internet?

Actually neither Higurashi nor Touhou were ever named, only we got the references.
Still, this is Umineko, surely one could claim that Jessica's cosplay was nothing but a coincidence and that Battler's favorite mystery novel just happens to have a character's mother saying the same line as in Higurashi.

Hey after all, LD is not Takano and Bern is not Rika, so this isn't asking any more.
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Old 2010-11-02, 20:40   Link #18337
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TehChron View Post
Its a good thing I hated lolis before Umineko, or else Id have developed a complex of some kind.
^This.

Quote:
Originally Posted by momobunny View Post
That doesn't really apply to characters like Hanyuu... not all characters who are immortal beings that take the form of children are deranged/spoiled brats/ bullies/ sociopaths.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Actually read the article. It's not about immortals acting like spoiled brats or bullies, it's about bullies acting exactly like their age-appearance, instead of their actual age in years. You can't really argue that Hanyuu doesn't act like a cute kid, and she very rarely acts like someone who's been around for hundreds of years.

Rika would be the one who subverts the trope, as her mind actually did develop.
And this. Fail, Momo. Fail. A couple of minutes of reading the article and you probably wouldn't have said that...

Anyway, I agree with AT. Bern and Lambda both fall under this trope.
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Old 2010-11-02, 20:44   Link #18338
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Guys, 1998 wasn't THAT long ago; by 1998, the internet was already in widespread public use, and any asshole could go and make a Geocities website about anything they wanted.

Higurashi was definitely named.
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Old 2010-11-02, 20:45   Link #18339
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And boy do they brutally play it for all it's worth. They're basically exactly what you get if you take a 13 year old child, torture and humiliate them for a hundred years, then give them absolute immortality and near-omnipotent, reality-sundering powers. Check back after a thousand years and you basically have Bern.
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Old 2010-11-02, 22:23   Link #18340
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My post was towards AuraTwilight's post about watching out for the beings that look like children, not the article on TVTropes. Also if you read my post, you could figure that I was referring to the traits listed and not the general traits regarding this trope, I already knew Hanyuu was on that TVTropes article page and I was in fact pointing that out (This wasn't my first time reading that page). Please watch how you talk to people Mikachiru (or rather "talk at" since my post didn't concern you at all).
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