AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2010-11-02, 22:30   Link #18341
UsagiTenpura
Echo of Noise
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
Send a message via Skype™ to UsagiTenpura
12 years ago for the internet was forever ago.
In population alone it's I believe around 10 times what it was in 1998, and the place it had in social life, and as a medium of information, shopping, communication, and banking transactions is way more then 10 times what it was back then.

A vast minority of people had it in developped worlds, nowaday a vast majority of people has it in developped worlds, things changed so much we should call it a transformation.
UsagiTenpura is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-11-02, 22:36   Link #18342
UsagiTenpura
Echo of Noise
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
Send a message via Skype™ to UsagiTenpura
Actually neither LD nor Bern ever killed anyone so far unless I'm forgetting something.
In many ways they aren't any worst then Maria, laughing at everyone's misery.
UsagiTenpura is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-11-02, 23:21   Link #18343
Used Can
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Actually neither LD nor Bern ever killed anyone so far unless I'm forgetting something.
If we can count the events in the Meta-World, then Bern and Lambda are partly responsible for Ange's death. That, and Bern did kill Will and Lion (or, at least, she tried to). They're also responsible for the death of the Beatrice we knew from EPs 1-4.
__________________
"The name is Tin; Used is just an alias. I'm everything Shoe Box would like to be." - Used Can of the Aluminium Kingdom
Used Can is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-11-02, 23:40   Link #18344
Kylon99
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
I was with a company making ColdFusion and ASP websites back in 1997 actually. In addition to using Java 1.1.5. There was way more work than we could handle. The dot-com boom was in full effect by then. So while the net is bigger now, it wasn't really that much different than what it was back then. No new significant widespread protocols have been developed since then, really...

Maybe if Beatrice described using Flash for navigation (hey, she is a witch, after all), then we can get a little suspicious.

Edit: Oh, and people had cel-phones as well. And Japanese restaurants on the west coast, though not as authentic as now. The Matrix was released in 1999 and we were already using DVDs by then, although they were just coming into adoption.
Kylon99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-11-02, 23:43   Link #18345
Keriaku
Thought Being
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Canada
Quote:
Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Actually neither LD nor Bern ever killed anyone so far unless I'm forgetting something.
In many ways they aren't any worst then Maria, laughing at everyone's misery.
I'm pretty sure in the meta-world setting, 'killing' people isn't the right way to judge how ferocious a person is. It's definitely based on the mental or psychological torment that they inflict. Which at least Bern, and by extension through enabling her, Erika, have caused lots of. For example, putting Battler into a logic error, which is suppose to be the worst of the worst for psychological torture.
Keriaku is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-11-03, 01:01   Link #18346
Smeckledorf
Intellectual Rapist
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: 3 12151805142615
Well, in episode 7 we are told that Yasu is the heir, but this is only because Yasu is believed to be the child from 19 years ago. If Yasu was not the heir and Genji was just trying to help Kinzo by making him think so, then Kinzo would likely make Yasu next inline for for head of the family. My point being, Battler could still be the heir.
__________________
Smeckledorf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-11-03, 01:21   Link #18347
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
Lambda is generally the better of the two, but Bernkastel ruined Ange's entire life and then killed her (then brought her back to torment her and kill her again), bullied Beatrice into suicide, made a popcorn show out of multiple deaths and endless tortures, INTENDED to throw Erika into the worst world possible, (probably) killed Will and Lion...

Maria didn't really laugh at people's misery so much as went "lol, guys, everything'll be fine, stop freaking out." You can't compare her to someone like Bern, who went out of her way to torture, humiliate, and harass people beyond lengths that are healthy for her own psyche. She and Lambda throw people into Logic Errors ritually to affirm that they themselves aren't in one anymore; they're nuts.

It's not different from people who embrace the Black Witch, hurting people because "That used to be you over there, now you're over here."

The Black Witch has hold of both of them, and they don't even realize it.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-11-03, 01:27   Link #18348
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
Yasu solved the Epitaph, which makes her the legitimate heir in Kinzo's eyes, if he was told about it. Battler has no reasonable right to be the heir for any reasons we've been told. He hasn't solved the Epitaph and he has no blood-connection to Beatrice. If we go by the main family's mode of heir election, he ranks 7th.

Interestingly, Maria is 8th, because everyone hates Ange.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-11-03, 01:38   Link #18349
Smeckledorf
Intellectual Rapist
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: 3 12151805142615
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Yasu solved the Epitaph, which makes her the legitimate heir in Kinzo's eyes, if he was told about it. Battler has no reasonable right to be the heir for any reasons we've been told. He hasn't solved the Epitaph and he has no blood-connection to Beatrice. If we go by the main family's mode of heir election, he ranks 7th.

Interestingly, Maria is 8th, because everyone hates Ange.
Fairly certain that Kinzo believed the person who would solve the epitaph was the child from 19 years ago. Also, the child from 19 years ago WOULD have a blood connection to Beatrice, so if Battler was in fact that child then that point is moot. We were shown in episode 7 that Yasu LEARNED he/she was the child from 19 years ago. I can learn that I am Brad Pitt, but that doesn't make it true. In short, the reason the epitaph was ACTUALLY formed was to give Kinzo a chance to see the child from 19 years ago again and that child was in fact the true heir, so the epitaph was also created to give the child from 19 years ago the headship.
__________________
Smeckledorf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-11-03, 02:02   Link #18350
Kylon99
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
Wouldn't it just be funny if Battler and Yasu (and therefore Beatrice, his greatest love) were both related...

wait a second.. they ARE. "Hi, I'm your aunt and cousin!" It's happy fun cyclical-graph family tree time.

Oh, Kinzo... couldn't keep his DNA in his pocket.
Kylon99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-11-03, 04:27   Link #18351
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
Quote:
Fairly certain that Kinzo believed the person who would solve the epitaph was the child from 19 years ago. Also, the child from 19 years ago WOULD have a blood connection to Beatrice, so if Battler was in fact that child then that point is moot. We were shown in episode 7 that Yasu LEARNED he/she was the child from 19 years ago. I can learn that I am Brad Pitt, but that doesn't make it true. In short, the reason the epitaph was ACTUALLY formed was to give Kinzo a chance to see the child from 19 years ago again and that child was in fact the true heir, so the epitaph was also created to give the child from 19 years ago the headship.
Yea, okay.

None of that has anything to do with the fact that Battler means none of those qualifications whatsoever, like I said.

And to be fair, George and Jessica are also going to boink their aunt/cousin.

And if Amakusa is Battler, Ange would boink her bro-oh who am I kidding, she'll do it anyway.

Maria's the only one not practicing incest.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-11-03, 08:42   Link #18352
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
The jokes and references to interwebs that are made by the Siestas all existed in 1998; there's no problem there.

As for Touhou, why can't it be some 80's anime, since Higurashi exists as a paperback novel?
It basically could; Maria likes a thinly-veiled version of Cardcaptor Sakura, which didn't air on TV until well after 1986. I don't recall, but I think even the VN makes clear that she refers to it as a TV show and not a manga (though in the anime she's watching Higurashi, which is a whole other problem).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smeckledorf View Post
In short, the reason the epitaph was ACTUALLY formed was to give Kinzo a chance to see the child from 19 years ago again and that child was in fact the true heir, so the epitaph was also created to give the child from 19 years ago the headship.
I still don't understand how this logic works. I realize it's stated, but it doesn't make sense.

What about the epitaph explicitly advantages the theoretical 19-Year Child in solving it? If the Taiwan solution is correct, the epitaph basically has the following "Eureka!" moments:
  • Realizing that the epitaph is a metaphor and not literal instructions or a magic ritual.
  • Realizing that the epitaph solution is a word problem and that the "key" is a word.
  • Knowing that Kinzo's "beloved homeland" is Taiwan.
  • Figuring out that the "river" is a railway line.
  • Determining that the town Kinzo refers to is Qilian.
  • Knowing that the chapel has QUADRILLION written over it in English.
  • Connecting that Qilian is meant to be read in English, and that it is the "key" to be taken out of QUADRILLION.
  • Solving the QUADRILLION word puzzle by removing QILIAN and unscrambling to LORDU.
  • Manipulating the device as required to open the passage.
  • Being able to recognize the change directing the solver to the back of the chapel where the entrance is.
Which of these is this hypothetical preferred heir supposed to have the edge over everyone else on?

Nobody, and I mean nobody, has any particular reason to know the epitaph is a metaphor any more than anybody else (except possibly Genji and Kumasawa who may have helped write or implement it, but we'll ignore them as they seem to be intentionally not solving it themselves). It's a conclusion anyone could reach, and a conclusion Rosa and Eva do reach quite easily, as do Erika and Battler.

The Taiwan solution requires knowing Kinzo spent time there. Kinzo's children vaguely know this; however, no one else does. Genji has to cheat and let this information slip to Yasu in order for him/her to solve it. In other words, the child (if Yasu) was not given an advantage in this respect, as Kinzo's other children knew more about it than he/she did. Erika and Battler seem to have figured this out in the roundabout way people on this board did, through guesswork and hints. So this part is easier if you're one of Kinzo's four legitimate children, and difficult if you're anyone else (and not cheating). No real advantage here for a 19-Year Child unless Genji blabs, which he really ought not be doing as it defeats the purpose (but this may be his goal).

The river stuff is solvable by anyone who can think metaphorically. Rosa and Eva disagree on whether the sweetfish part was a necessary hint, but it did help at least one of them focus in on it. Again, this doesn't advantage anyone in particular. There's no reason a 19-Year Child would be more likely to conclude a railroad than anyone else would.

The English part is probably the worst of all. There is no indication that Kinzo would expect the 19-Year Child to be familiar with English at all, let alone that he/she would make the connection between Qilian and QUADRILLION. Sure, Kinzo spoke it, Beatrice-1 speaks it. Do we know Beatrice-2 ever did? And even if she did, her child wouldn't no matter who raised it unless the child were explicitly taught English. As far as we know, not only wasn't this ever brought up as one of Lion's strengths, I'm not sure Yasu knows much English either. Heck, even Battler, a supposed leading candidate to be the baby, knows barely any English. This part would advantage anyone who speaks English and knows that Kinzo spoke English. Again, that would probably be one of his more educated children like Eva (who seems to know it and admires England culturally, though she rarely uses it) or Rudolf (who, dealing with Americans, I assume must know some English). Or George or Maria. But not some child whose education we can barely determine, and who probably wasn't explicitly taught anything.

The word puzzle is just a word puzzle. If you get to that point, the solution is not hard to figure out. Even Eva seemed to think so, and Erika found it anticlimactic until Battler noticed the next step.

Here's where it gets juicy. One has to notice that there was a subtle change. At least four people seem to have done this: Eva, Rosa, Battler, and Yasu. Erika notices that something has changed position after Battler points it out, Rosa may have been tailing Eva, and Eva and Yasu seem to notice the physical change.

But Battler... Battler "sees Kinzo" approving, and knows from that where to go. If we want to declare that Kinzo anoints his chosen successor, isn't it the guy who actually "sees" him who ought to be viewed as the one "meant" to solve it? But if so, how the hell would Kinzo have known that?

That's true of every candidate. Nobody, except perhaps Kinzo's four main kids, seems to have an inherent advantage with the epitaph. If the goal was to locate the "true" 19-Year Child, Kinzo appears to have done nothing to reduce the risk of a person who is not that child from solving it first.

I mean, what if he's still alive and Battler solves it? Or Jessica? Or Renon? Is he going to "decide" they were the child all along, whether or not they really were? Worse, what if it's Eva? Or Natsuhi? Or Gohda? Somebody he damn well knows isn't that child?
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-11-03, 08:47   Link #18353
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
I'm not so sold on Lambda. She's a goof, but I swear she's running an angle. The only time she ever really "hurt" Ange was when she told her the truth. And in so doing, she actually arrayed Ange against Bern and Beatrice. Lambda's actions in ep6 are also highly suspicious. She herself has never brought harm on anyone without some kind of apparent ulterior motive, she doesn't seem to enjoy anyone's suffering other than Bern's, and Bern is basically the only person she overtly threatens the majority of the time.

I see her as more of a trickster figure. She's not good, but she might be working toward some greater good in a conniving, dangerously playful fashion. If her goal truly is what she's stated all along - to entrap Bernkastel - can you really blame her at this point? Bern needs to be put away.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-11-03, 10:57   Link #18354
Pikumin
Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: A Distant Planet
Age: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I mean, what if he's still alive and Battler solves it? Or Jessica? Or Renon? Is he going to "decide" they were the child all along, whether or not they really were? Worse, what if it's Eva? Or Natsuhi? Or Gohda? Somebody he damn well knows isn't that child?
I wouldn't put it past that Kinzo. He would probably welcome Gohda with open arms.
Pikumin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-11-03, 12:01   Link #18355
Cao Ni Ma
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
We dont even know if the epitaph was ever meant to be a form to chose the new successor. We only accept it because everyone believes it, for all we know this could still change by EP8. But yeah I remember a certain scene where it alludes how solving a puzzle might not be that easy for a person that doesn't know a particular language and makes the "Why do dragons sleep during the day? Because they fight Knights" comment.

Its entirely possible that the epitaph might require knowing another language to solve, anticipating someone to know this language and hoping that person solves it though is starting to make it too much of a gambit.
Cao Ni Ma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-11-03, 12:01   Link #18356
Used Can
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
I believe an explanation for this is that the kids at Fukuin are probably taught English. Of course, I don't think nothing like this has ever been hinted, unless there's something I don't remember. But, either way, we've been told they've received education there. So, it may not be wrong to assume this much.

In addition to that, the Epitaph wasn't released until 1984, which happens to be the same year Kanon "arrived" to the island. Unlike Shannon, who, by now, we know is almost surely one of Yasu's imaginary friends and/or personas, Kanon remains a slight anomaly, since we never really saw him in Yasu's memories, which I think is rather suspicious. In addition, they way he came to be was rather weird. So, I think this can be seen in many ways, like Kanon being Kinzo's actual offspring (and not one of Yasu's creations), or him being someone Kinzo entrusted his child's (Yasu/Lion's) care, Kinzo not recognising his child until he looked like a boy, or Kinzo never actually met Yasu until (s)he was playing the Kanon role. Either way, Kanon's appearance in the island may, or may not be related to Kinzo releasing the Epitaph, and I believe this is too big a coincidence to believe they are not related.

Something that I believe should be pointed out is that the Epitaph was probably written even before Kinzo and his family moved to Rokkenjima, since the chapel has been there since mansions' creation, and I'm sure the secret mechanism has been there from the very beginning as well. So, this Epitaph may be unrelated to Beatrice and/or Yasu. In fact, in Lion's world, Kinzo didn't even release the Epitaph, until the siblings started complaining about Lion being the successor to the family's headship. So, Kinzo using the Epitaph as a test to find this kid may be just one of Kinzo's many bets.

As clichéd as it may be, I don't think the line "I wouldn't out it past Kinzo" has been there for nothing. We've been told many times not to expect common sense from him. Of course, along with that, we've been also told he's a very intelligent man, a genius. So, in this case not expecting common sense from him doesn't mean he's stupid, but him having his own way of thinking which, whilst it may look nonsensical to others, it makes sense to him. Therefore, this may be taken as one of Kinzo's big bets.

Of course, as I pointed out, Kinzo releasing the Epitaph coincides with Kanon's appearance, meaning that there are chances Kinzo was aware of his child's presence in the island. So, he made that bet. If that child solved the Epitaph before anyone else, he'd tell him/her the whole truth, apologise to Beatrice, and appoint that child as the new head. However, if anyone other than that child solved the Epitaph first, then he'd probably give up on that child and give the headship along with all the belongings of the Ushiromiya family to that person, whoever that person may be. This may be the reason why Genji gave some clues to Yasu, so that Kinzo's bet would succeed.

I'm sure I've made some rather big stretches on several points, but I think that, for Umineko, this much makes some sense.
__________________
"The name is Tin; Used is just an alias. I'm everything Shoe Box would like to be." - Used Can of the Aluminium Kingdom
Used Can is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-11-03, 12:48   Link #18357
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
We dont even know if the epitaph was ever meant to be a form to chose the new successor. We only accept it because everyone believes it, for all we know this could still change by EP8. But yeah I remember a certain scene where it alludes how solving a puzzle might not be that easy for a person that doesn't know a particular language and makes the "Why do dragons sleep during the day? Because they fight Knights" comment.

Its entirely possible that the epitaph might require knowing another language to solve, anticipating someone to know this language and hoping that person solves it though is starting to make it too much of a gambit.
I thought people believed that because it was one of the questions answered in the core arcs? I don't see why it would change by episode 8 since he's spent so much time previously on showing people how to solve it.

and yes you do need a certain understanding of both languages for all of the solutions I know of.
Judoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-11-03, 13:09   Link #18358
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
My main problem is that it's a gamble without edging the odds in favor of his anticipated and desired outcome. That is within Kinzo's character; remember way back to the first two episodes where his study is magically warded. Kinzo intended that he might be chosen by the witch's ritual, yet he also consciously took steps to ensure his own survival to the end. Of course we know that's all bunk, but part of Kinzo's personality is not merely that he's a risk-taker, but that he makes seemingly impossible bets he knows he isn't going to lose.

Part of why he knows that is indeed because he's a genius; his financial acumen speaks for itself. However, if given a situation where he had full control over matters, it seems rather odd that he'd essentially offer his "preferred" choice no greater probability of success than any other, and arguably less than his own legitimate children.

There's the argument that he didn't know, and that Genji was subtly encouraging Yasu because he knew he/she was indeed the child, but all of that is somewhat questionable. Certainly we can take from it that Genji believed - or wanted Yasu to believe - that solving the epitaph would prove his/her identity. However, that seems to have been kept from Kinzo. So unless Kinzo is such a genius that he can predict himself going insane and Genji working secretly against his alleged trust relationship to cheat the epitaph and ensure Yasu was the first to solve it... well, sorry, I would put that past Kinzo.

And if the goal was merely "throw the riddle out there and hope for the best," well that's just dumb on Kinzo's part. At least include something you think only the right individual could figure out.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-11-03, 15:09   Link #18359
Will Wright
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
As for Lamdba, she is "Chaotic Neutral" in my book.
Will Wright is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-11-03, 15:11   Link #18360
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
I agree, which is why I say she's "not as bad." It'd be interesting if it turned out Lambda was some sort of like Chaotic Good figure, as the Rika figure trolled as all by being as horribly evil as possible.

Lambdadelta does enjoy the show put on by people getting trolled, humiliated, and murdered and stuff in Games 5 and 6, so yea, she's not good. But she's never really DONE anything.

The thing is, even if she does decide to seal Bern in a Can, which would be a Good thing, Lambdadelta is doing it only because of her sick, messed up fetish for trapping Bernkastel in gilded cages and stuff.

Unless she was lying about that too.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 00:10.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.