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Old 2010-11-03, 21:07   Link #18381
UsagiTenpura
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
What is a life? If they're sentient, conscious entities, and they stop existing, how is that not the snuffing of a life?

But then, with your interpretation, there's nothing Bern and Lambda can do to BE murderers, because "lol how can something with no organs or life signs or whatever be a murderer?"

And then that leads to justifying Beatrice by saying witches can't murder because they're not human. Sorry, but that's pretty shoddy reasoning. If we're going to say it's not murder because the victims aren't homo sapien, despite being mentally human in every appreciable respect, then you're basically saying it's impossible for Bern and Lambda to ever be responsible for anything they do from the get-go.
No I'm basically saying it's like Ronove vs Jessica in arc 4. Does that make Ronove a murderer? Absolutely not because it's not reality and only a fantasy scene. If LD and Bern are "killers" then Beato is the top murderer of them all. Also Eva is the culprit in arc 3. If you can get that neither of these claims are very trustable and reliable then I'm not sure why you cannot apply that same logic to Bern and LD.
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Old 2010-11-03, 21:18   Link #18382
Mikachiru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
No I'm basically saying it's like Ronove vs Jessica in arc 4. Does that make Ronove a murderer? Absolutely not because it's not reality and only a fantasy scene. If LD and Bern are "killers" then Beato is the top murderer of them all. Also Eva is the culprit in arc 3. If you can get that neither of these claims are very trustable and reliable then I'm not sure why you cannot apply that same logic to Bern and LD.
In that case, of course Bronove is a murderer. Basic logic here: If you kill someone, then you are a murderer. However, Battler, reality, and common sense refuses to accept this an answer since Bronove is introduced as a demon butler. And we know those don't exist irl. The culprit is an entirely different story however...
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Old 2010-11-03, 21:56   Link #18383
AuraTwilight
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The thing is, you're treating Fantasy Scenes and Meta-scenes as if they're the same thing. They're not. A Fantasy scene is Beatrice claiming that Event X happened and showing Battler a very very complex cartoon that showed her little fairy tale. The Meta-Scenes are a higher level of reality, and, if nothing else, are a higher order of reality than the fantasy scenes. Even if we agree that the entire thing is a story written in a message bottle, we still have a clear difference between "Culprit X killed Jessica and Beatrice said it was Ronove" and "Bernkastel turned Ange into hamburger." The former statement is part of the premise that Beatrice is trying to take credit for mundane murders, and the second statement is a meta-fictional event taking place in the narrative, with no room for debate for Battler to claim it was Cosplaying Loli X.
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Old 2010-11-03, 23:31   Link #18384
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I completely agree with Aura here. It's like how Virgillia was killed in the fantasy battle between Beatrice and herself and then easily showed up later to help Battler with his reasoning. It would have been completely different if Beatrice killed her in the higher plane.

The kind of 'murder' or trolling that people are attributing to Bern only matters to other beings on the same level. Beatrice can troll Battler because he can comprehend that Beatrice herself is screwing with him personally. Events that confuse characters on the game board, while could be called trolling by Beatrice, it isn't the right word for it.

For example, by the time Erika kills the 6 people in EP6, it no longer really matters as trolling or murder to the people on the gameboard, it only really matters to Battler by this point (as reality is seemingly suspended for the characters on the lower reality from our point of view by that point).

On the other hand, people like Erika can be killed by others on the same metaphysical level, as shown when she is completely denied at the end of EP6.
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Old 2010-11-03, 23:57   Link #18385
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I think the issue is less who's doing what and what counts as what, and more how characters react to it. Battler has compassion for everyone, from pieces to his meta-world enemies. Even driven to full-on hate mode, he can't seem to help himself from sympathizing eventually. Someone like Magic/Meta-George seems to regard pieces with a very low opinion, but clearly values his own existence in some capacity. And then you have somebody like Bern who appears to have absolutely no consideration for anyone's existence on any level.

Whether an act against a particular character by another is "murder" or not in moral terms, who sees it like that is important.
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Old 2010-11-04, 00:05   Link #18386
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Pretty much exactly what Renall said.
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Old 2010-11-04, 00:07   Link #18387
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Most models of morality fly out the window once we're in meta-meta-fictional territory. Kinda hard to be a consequentialist in Umineko. You win again, Aristotle.

EDIT: Kant might still be okay.
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Old 2010-11-04, 00:55   Link #18388
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I have one very random thought about the story and also a question. Forgive me in advance if I say something stupid (I tend to do that ^_^).
Maybe we are the culprit(s)?
Not the culprit(s) of the games but in another way.
We are affecting the games just by reading the "books". Each “Ep” seems to be a book written by different “witch hunters” (I forgot what they called them) and Toya Hachijo. In the Meta world these books seem to (in my mind) translate over as being different fragments of possibility. Right? Maybe?
Ok, with that being said.
On the back of the 7th Ep case is says something along the lines of “By whose will is this story truly being repeated?”. Since we are reading these different possibilities of the story the story continues. In 7th Ep Bttler puts a book in Beatrice’s coffin and says something along the lines of: This is a story of the truth that I will seal with you in this coffin (cat box). Since no one but you and I can read it no one will be able to defile it.
So in a way have we been messing with the story by even looking at it? I know we needed them for clues to find the things we know and have yet to find. But still…?
Ok that’s my 1 thought, next is a question that has been bugging me for a while.
Who are Bernkastel and Lambdadelta (In this story of Umineko)? We pretty much can convert any magical being who has appeared in the story thus far into someone human. Yet Lambda and Bern remain (unless I missed something)…
And since this story is a mystery, I find it hard to believe that they are real witches. Can they reflect us and how we view the story (one represents viewing the story with love and the other represents the story without love)? I have no clue -_-‘
Thanks for listening ^_^ (and please help)~

Last edited by vdaysnowstorm; 2010-11-04 at 02:00.
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Old 2010-11-04, 01:02   Link #18389
Judoh
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I literally read a theory exactly like that exactly one week ago
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Old 2010-11-04, 01:12   Link #18390
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I literally read a theory exactly like that exactly one week ago
Really? Where? Here? Thank goodness, I thought I was going crazy. Good to know that others thought that too.
Wait, which one did you hear? I'd like to read it if you have the link~

Last edited by vdaysnowstorm; 2010-11-04 at 01:22.
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Old 2010-11-04, 01:26   Link #18391
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Originally Posted by vdaysnowstorm View Post
Really? Where? Here? Thank goodness, I thought I was going crazy. Good to know that others thought that too.
Wait
which one did you hear?
the one where we are the culprits by reading the game. And I didn't read it here I read it at a forum called Golden Gameboard.

apparently it doesn't break any mystery rules either.

Edit: link here
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Old 2010-11-04, 01:49   Link #18392
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
the one where we are the culprits by reading the game. And I didn't read it here I read it at a forum called Golden Gameboard.

apparently it doesn't break any mystery rules either.

Edit: link here
That is a wonderful thing you just linked.
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Old 2010-11-04, 01:54   Link #18393
UsagiTenpura
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It still goes back to my point. If you consider LD and Bern murderers then you have to consider Beato and Eva much worst then them.

However it's just exactly as Renall said, and not just in the game.
It's a matter of perspective. Clearly all of you consider what at least Bern did to be murder and clearly I do not.

To me they're very similar to us, watching the game, enjoying it, having fun with it. We're not that cruel? No way, how many people alone seem to want Ange to die in arc 8 and be happy about it? Agreed it's not everyone who feels that way but overall I see them as characters who are mostly equivalent to us, readers, then anything.
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Old 2010-11-04, 01:54   Link #18394
vdaysnowstorm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
the one where we are the culprits by reading the game. And I didn't read it here I read it at a forum called Golden Gameboard.

apparently it doesn't break any mystery rules either.

Edit: link here
Wow thanks so much!!!
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Old 2010-11-04, 01:56   Link #18395
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Quote:
Who are Bernkastel and Lambdadelta? We pretty much can convert any magical being who has appeared in the story thus far into someone human. Yet Lambda and Bern remain (unless I missed something)…
Rika and Takano.

Though seriously, they don't need a human form. Gaap is a phenomenon, the Siestas and Sakutarou are toys, the Inquisitors are Rules...most likely, Bern and Lambda represent different aspects of causality, like chance or fate or something.

Or they really are witches, since they come from outside Beatrice's game and thus from outside the mystery.

I would say that more likely, we the readers are the "True Gamemasters" or something, since Bernkastel denied being it, and our being the culprits would contradict like every single Mystery rule introduced.

Quote:
It still goes back to my point. If you consider LD and Bern murderers then you have to consider Beato and Eva much worst then them.

However it's just exactly as Renall said, and not just in the game.
It's a matter of perspective. Clearly all of you consider what at least Bern did to be murder and clearly I do not.

To me they're very similar to us, watching the game, enjoying it, having fun with it. We're not that cruel? No way, how many people alone seem to want Ange to die in arc 8 and be happy about it? Agreed it's not everyone who feels that way but overall I see them as characters who are mostly equivalent to us, readers, then anything.
I still insist there's a world of difference between killing something on a lower level of fiction than you, and killing someone on the same plane of reality as you, meta or otherwise.

Though that aside, you still can't compare us to Lambda and Bern in that respect. Wanting a character/person dead isn't the same as actually doing it.
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Old 2010-11-04, 01:59   Link #18396
UsagiTenpura
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Well we could be the "antagonists" at most but not really the culprits.
... And anyway that would make Ryukishi into the mastermind.
I really hope I'll never have to read a mystery novel to end up finding that the "real world author" is the "culprit" for having written it in the first place.
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Old 2010-11-04, 02:05   Link #18397
vdaysnowstorm
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Rika and Takano.

Though seriously, they don't need a human form. Gaap is a phenomenon, the Siestas and Sakutarou are toys, the Inquisitors are Rules...most likely, Bern and Lambda represent different aspects of causality, like chance or fate or something.
I understand the whole Higurashi thing I meant in Umineko.
...
ohhhhh I see ~
That makes sense XD
Thank you!!!
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Old 2010-11-04, 02:09   Link #18398
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Yea, and since they never appear on the Gameboard, they don't have to be metaphors at all, really. They could be exactly what they claim to be, even if they don't exist.
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Old 2010-11-04, 04:36   Link #18399
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About the gold, can the siblings even sue for it? I mean, does it even belong to the Ushiromiya family? The story behind the gold has always been that Kinzo borrowed it from Beatrice. So, it doesn't really belong to him. In this regard, you could say none of Kinzo's children have any right over this gold. In fact, not even Kinzo does. This gold wasn't obtained through any legal means, and thus they are not subjected to law (unless you bring it to public knowledge). Thinking about suing anyone about this is basically telling the government "please come take 20 billion yen away from us!". If we were to say this gold belonged to Beatrice Castiglioni, then the only person who can claim that gold would be Yasu/Lion, but I'm sure that wouldn't work on any court either, unless there's any legal documentation that the gold belonged to Beatrice, and I'm sure no such documents exist.

About the Family Headship, that is not subject to legals matters either, I think. Kinzo can appoint whomever he wants as the head. So, if he wants to appoint Yasu/Lion as the head, he can do so, and no one can do anything about it, but to complain amongst themselves.
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Old 2010-11-04, 05:32   Link #18400
erneiz_hyde
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post

I would say that more likely, we the readers are the "True Gamemasters" or something, since Bernkastel denied being it, and our being the culprits would contradict like every single Mystery rule introduced.
Not necessarily. If the culprit have to be introduced in the story before hand, then there is at least one scene.

On the very first episode, when Battler first introduced his name. Though it's subtle, I think this scene is borderline breaking the 4th wall to introduce us into the story.

Though I'm not sure about the other rules.

I'm not saying that I accept this theory. yet anyway.

[edit]
hell, if you count the text displayed when you hover your mouse to the episode cursor as part of the whole mystery thing, then we're introduced to the game before we even started it.
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