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Old 2010-11-04, 05:56   Link #18401
AuraTwilight
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Saying we were introduced because the narration enters first person is really, really flimsy.

Even still, too many rules are broken, along with a general spirit of the story. Applying this to author theory, this is like saying Ange is the culprit because she read Hachijou's story. Sorry, but that's absurd. We have no influence over the course of events whatsoever, and whether or not we choose to know what happens doesn't change what DID happen. The story exists, even if no one reads it. It just remains in a catbox.
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Old 2010-11-04, 06:16   Link #18402
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Saying we were introduced because the narration enters first person is really, really flimsy.
Yeah, I know. But I wouldn't put it past R07. Afterall, entering first person narration then suddenly saying "Can you read my name properly?" in a monologue isn't that uncommon really. Especially if the Narcisst Battler theory was true lol .

In the meanwhile, I'll just stick to my personal truth and wait for ep.8 (hopefully it really will come out in December.)
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Old 2010-11-04, 08:25   Link #18403
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About the gold, can the siblings even sue for it? I mean, does it even belong to the Ushiromiya family? The story behind the gold has always been that Kinzo borrowed it from Beatrice. So, it doesn't really belong to him. In this regard, you could say none of Kinzo's children have any right over this gold. In fact, not even Kinzo does. This gold wasn't obtained through any legal means, and thus they are not subjected to law (unless you bring it to public knowledge). Thinking about suing anyone about this is basically telling the government "please come take 20 billion yen away from us!". If we were to say this gold belonged to Beatrice Castiglioni, then the only person who can claim that gold would be Yasu/Lion, but I'm sure that wouldn't work on any court either, unless there's any legal documentation that the gold belonged to Beatrice, and I'm sure no such documents exist.
All true, but that's the problem. If they sue over the gold, it's just going to be taken away from them. If they don't sue over the gold, it's going to be very awkward and it's unlikely they'd all agree without someone screwing up.

They can still sue over Kinzo's "will," though. They don't know Krauss has wasted most of Kinzo's assets. But they can certainly sue to halt any sort of transfer of control or property on the basis that it's not legally valid. Then they'll sue Krauss for fraud. It will self-destruct delightfully. That's why coming to a deal with each other or someone who finds the gold to keep everything quiet is so appealing to them. Ideally, they'd like to sue nobody at all. Would they accept some ridiculous person's claim to headship of the family if it meant keeping everything calm? Maybe.
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About the Family Headship, that is not subject to legals matters either, I think. Kinzo can appoint whomever he wants as the head. So, if he wants to appoint Yasu/Lion as the head, he can do so, and no one can do anything about it, but to complain amongst themselves.
Rather, it is subject to law, but the law does allow Kinzo to appoint anyone manager of the Ushiromiya Group that he wants. Eva essentially did this with Okonogi, who isn't family, but is a trusted businessman. Ange is basically the trustee. It's her money, technically, but he controls it. Similarly, Kinzo could appoint some random lawyer or bank goon the head of the group and declare his illegitimate child or an unrelated person the beneficiary of any assets.

However, that isn't possible if he's dead. In Lion's world he sets it up before that. In the non-Lion world we know, though, the only way for a "living" Kinzo to set up headship transfer is for the family to basically commit fraud.
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Old 2010-11-04, 09:51   Link #18404
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All true, but that's the problem. If they sue over the gold, it's just going to be taken away from them. If they don't sue over the gold, it's going to be very awkward and it's unlikely they'd all agree without someone screwing up.
The problem with the gold is that it is seriously up for grabs. Whoever finds it first keeps it (assuming whoever finds it wants to keep it to himself). I really don't think you can sue about it, because it is not a legal asset. The only reason I'd see for anyone to try to sue would be out of scorn, with the very intention of having the gold taken away from whoever found it.

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They can still sue over Kinzo's "will," though. They don't know Krauss has wasted most of Kinzo's assets. But they can certainly sue to halt any sort of transfer of control or property on the basis that it's not legally valid. Then they'll sue Krauss for fraud. It will self-destruct delightfully. That's why coming to a deal with each other or someone who finds the gold to keep everything quiet is so appealing to them. Ideally, they'd like to sue nobody at all. Would they accept some ridiculous person's claim to headship of the family if it meant keeping everything calm? Maybe.
I'd say the family actual legal assets are a different matter. The other siblings, through their own means, managed to find some bits about Krauss' actual situation. So, if a new head were to be appointed, and this person would request some of the balances regarding the assets of the family, then Krauss' doings could be found out, and he'd have to answer for it. So, one way or the other, the ones screwed here would be Krauss and his immediate family.

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Rather, it is subject to law, but the law does allow Kinzo to appoint anyone manager of the Ushiromiya Group that he wants. Eva essentially did this with Okonogi, who isn't family, but is a trusted businessman. Ange is basically the trustee. It's her money, technically, but he controls it. Similarly, Kinzo could appoint some random lawyer or bank goon the head of the group and declare his illegitimate child or an unrelated person the beneficiary of any assets.

However, that isn't possible if he's dead. In Lion's world he sets it up before that. In the non-Lion world we know, though, the only way for a "living" Kinzo to set up headship transfer is for the family to basically commit fraud.
Yeah, we've already seen the succession to head through the Epitaph is a touchy subject amongst the siblings, and they only tend to agree to it whenever it benefits them. So, unless Kinzo left some actual legal documents in which he stated his approval of this sort of succession, then I guess it'd be rather troublesome. However, Yasu found solved the Epitaph while he was alive. So, I wonder if he took some actual legal measures to ensure Yasu's safety as the head.

All the same, Yasu explicitly told Genji (s)he's not interested in the family headship and that Krauss could keep it. So, I guess this doesn't matter much.

Although, I wonder why Yasu cares about the Epitaph being solved. Was (s)he planning on moving on with whichever of the cousins who solved the Epitaph (assuming they did)? Battler solved it in EP5 and nothing happened. In addition, did George and/or Jessica receive any tips from Shannon and/or Kanon? In Yasu's case, the situation was set up so that (s)he would have some chance at solving it, but I don't think the cousins had any. Although, well, they could always have asked their parents about Kinzo's hometown, and that would have solved things. But, either way, I still don't understand clearly what Yasu really wanted to do with the Epitaph.
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Old 2010-11-04, 10:06   Link #18405
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Although, I wonder why Yasu cares about the Epitaph being solved. Was (s)he planning on moving on with whichever of the cousins who solved the Epitaph (assuming they did)? Battler solved it in EP5 and nothing happened. In addition, did George and/or Jessica receive any tips from Shannon and/or Kanon? In Yasu's case, the situation was set up so that (s)he would have some chance at solving it, but I don't think the cousins had any. Although, well, they could always have asked their parents about Kinzo's hometown, and that would have solved things. But, either way, I still don't understand clearly what Yasu really wanted to do with the Epitaph.
If Yasu really is the representation of Beatrice in the meta world then she stated that she (Beatrice) doesn't gain anything from the family members solving the riddle. But somehow the killings will stop if they do, or at least the bomb going off if there really is one.
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Old 2010-11-04, 11:25   Link #18406
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Well, in EP5, the Epitaph was solved and the killings kept on happening. Of course, there was something weird about these murderers, but the fact of the matter is, people kept on dying (or at least, posing as dead, and getting killed later).

I don't remember if this was said on EP5, if I heard it somewhere else or if it's my own idea, but I think solving the Epitaph doesn't really matter. I believe the process of solving it itself has some meaning to it, there may be something Yasu expected Battler to notice while trying to solve it. Maybe the simply idea of solving a mystery-like puzzle is what Yasu wanted Battler to notice, and perhaps, in that way, remember her (or his promise with Shannon).
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Old 2010-11-04, 11:37   Link #18407
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Yasu can lose something by the Epitaph being solved, that is the headship of the family. In that case, it can respect that particular red if she intended to not benefit but lose something in the first place.
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Old 2010-11-04, 11:47   Link #18408
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Yasu can lose something by the Epitaph being solved, that is the headship of the family.
She refused the headship of the family. She told Genji that Krauss could keep it.
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Old 2010-11-04, 12:58   Link #18409
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You can't lose something you don't accept. If we believe the Yasu story, he/she never accepted it. It was offered, but it wasn't accepted. Now, whether it still exists to be given away is another matter. Yasu could later decide that he/she intends to give it to someone else, but wants the epitaph to decide who. In that case, Yasu is not "losing" or "gaining" anything no matter who solves it or whether anyone does. It respects the red in a pretty literal way, but I won't cry foul about it in this case.
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Old 2010-11-04, 13:14   Link #18410
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I'd agree with that interpretation; though there's also the idea that someone is coercing her into doing things, so she doesn't "gain" anything.
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Old 2010-11-04, 14:15   Link #18411
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She refused the headship of the family. She told Genji that Krauss could keep it.
Actually, no, that's not what I remember her saying. She said that she didn't feel like she was the head of the family and that she wasn't prepared for it. She said she wanted everything to stay the same, including the assumption that Krauss was to be the next head.

Then Genji and the others started discussing the fact that they're going to have to let Krauss and Natsuhi know that Kinzo is dead. So Genji and the others decided to pretend that Krauss was the head, but to secretly acknowledge that Beatrice is the true head of the family.

She may not really want it, but I'm thinking it ended up being an obligation onto her from those three. So, I'm thinking she is using it to enact the Epitaph hijinks to eventually try and get rid of it.

This is in line with Ep1-4, how she's shown to have the ring (and then gives it up) and why those three (and Shannon and Kanon) consistently lie in favor of her (i.e. when Nanjo lies about seeing Kinzo with no ring.)


To continue along this line of thinking, I'm starting to think that the 'love duel' in EP6 may not be totally related to love and Shannon/Kanon themselves. Character-wise, the story was about the characters deciding on a 'love' but I think that metaphorically, they represented a choice that Yasu could make. To stay on the island (and remain heir) or leave the island, i.e. just run off and forget about the headship (either with George, or as Beatrice, with Battler?)

Ok, so that's not anything new, I guess. But i was wondering if when George asked if Shannon was wearing a ring, if he was then crying because she really was... just not his ring. 8) In other words in EP1, that Shannon decided to remain the head and not leave with George and that was her answer. I know Ryukishi has said in an interview something about this, but did he only state that George loved Shannon? Or was it 'they both love each other?'

Hmm... lemme think some more on this...
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Old 2010-11-04, 14:27   Link #18412
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You can't lose something you don't accept. If we believe the Yasu story, he/she never accepted it. It was offered, but it wasn't accepted. Now, whether it still exists to be given away is another matter. Yasu could later decide that he/she intends to give it to someone else, but wants the epitaph to decide who. In that case, Yasu is not "losing" or "gaining" anything no matter who solves it or whether anyone does. It respects the red in a pretty literal way, but I won't cry foul about it in this case.
But 'Yasu' accepted the title of Beatrice-3. She also accepted the ring. I didn't see a part where she rejected the headship entirely. She in fact, gave an order to GENSAWAJO to 'keep things the way they are.' It wasn't a,"Just let me live as before, here's the headship back." It was a, "Here's my order, I'd like to keep things the way they are." Because before this GENSAWAJO were thinking of announcing the headship to everyone else, but because of this order, they decided to pretend Krauss was the head and acknowledge her only in secret.


So maybe it's GENSAWAJO forcing her to do this, or she feels some sort of obligation to keep going, until someone else solves it.

But it fits in with the fantasy scenes of her receiving the ring and WALRONGAP obeying her orders from EP1-4.
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Old 2010-11-04, 15:05   Link #18413
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I'm of the same opinion of Kylon, I don't remember Yasu actually saying that she refused the headship and she wanted Krauss to keep it, for what I could understand Yasu simply said she wanted to put things on hold and let everything stay as it was before.

If Yasu really refused the headship then Genji would give the ring to Krauss and he wouldn't have any more reason to follow Yasu's orders. This doesn't really match with what we've seen considering the ring often appears inside a letter sent by Beatrice and it is also quite probable that Genji Nanjo and Kumasawa helped Yasu in whatever she planned for the last Ushiromiya family meeting.
It would also be impossible for Yasu to create those bank accounts if she wasn't the head of the family. In that case she couldn't really have access to the Ushiromiya assets. Genji would have never allowed her to take the gold ingots if she wasn't the new head.
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Old 2010-11-04, 15:06   Link #18414
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...........
To continue along this line of thinking, I'm starting to think that the 'love duel' in EP6 may not be totally related to love and Shannon/Kanon themselves. Character-wise, the story was about the characters deciding on a 'love' but I think that metaphorically, they represented a choice that Yasu could make. To stay on the island (and remain heir) or leave the island, i.e. just run off and forget about the headship (either with George, or as Beatrice, with Battler?)

Ok, so that's not anything new, I guess. But i was wondering if when George asked if Shannon was wearing a ring, if he was then crying because she really was... just not his ring. 8) In other words in EP1, that Shannon decided to remain the head and not leave with George and that was her answer. I know Ryukishi has said in an interview something about this, but did he only state that George loved Shannon? Or was it 'they both love each other?'

Hmm... lemme think some more on this...
My thinking is that the love trial started because Battler showed up. Before then, Shannon has already 'won' and has little reason to stay for being Jessica's only friend on the island, a head of the family, and waiting for Battler. But then Battler showed up and Yasu started to have mixed feelings. Yasu's reason for staying (which are metaphorically Kanon and Beatrice side) grew and all three were on equal footing again.

So I guess that in EP1 George was 'lost' and 'sacrificed' to give chance to Kanon and Beatrice which is a bit similar to the EP4 letters O_o...So yes. I think that Shannon loves George but so do Jessica and Battler equally.

But man, Bern is evil. Her game is basically stating that the Ushiromiya are an incestuous family. No 'love' indeed. >.>
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Old 2010-11-04, 15:18   Link #18415
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There's a difference between receipt and acceptance. Yasu clearly is given effective control, possession of the ring, etc. However, it is his/her explicit order not to take any action yet. Yes, he/she has control over the operations and assets in theory, but I get the impression that Yasu is more "setting things up in trust" than actively claiming what was offered.

As far as we can tell, the Yasu story suggests Kinzo basically wanted to give everything to his lost child, from the money to the headship and everything down the line. It's Yasu's own desire not to essentially become Lion. If we buy that he/she set up the money, and is perhaps planning to convince the adults to accept the gold and some unknown headship arrangement in exchange for whatever he/she wants of them, then Yasu isn't actually taking on the role Kinzo intended.

It's the difference between acting as beneficiary and acting as trustee. The trustee actually controls the assets (the money, the gold, the ring); however, he or she has no intention of keeping them, just managing them until the appropriate time. If Yasu doesn't really want the headship, then one could view him/her as the trustee, and all he/she is looking for now is an appropriate beneficiary (that is, to decide who to pass the headship to and that he/she will use the gold and the family financial troubles as incentive to get everyone to quietly agree to it).

Until the beneficiary is found, Yasu holds it all. However, it's not being held in order to be kept. "All the gold in the Golden Land" does indeed belong to Yasu, but only for so long as something can't be done with it (I'm assuming from the evidence in ep7 and ep2 that Yasu's plan is to divide it up between the families, cover up the Kinzo matter, and appoint someone else the head of the family who everyone will claim Kinzo "recognized" as the new heir).
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Old 2010-11-04, 15:25   Link #18416
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Then the matter is settled Renall. If you agree that all the gold in the golden Land indeed belonged to Yasu, then you shouldn't have any problem with the idea that Yasu would lose that very gold (and the headship with it) by letting someone else solving the epitaph.

It doesn't matter if she's actually happy if that happens or if it's a good riddance for her. As long as you possess something you can "lose" it, and she did possess that gold, that was even said in red.
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Old 2010-11-04, 15:32   Link #18417
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A trustee loses and gains nothing from transferring an asset even if they maintain actual control over it, because they never had a legal right to it in the first place.

That's not specifically legally what's happening in the Yasu story, but it is essentially that idea. The gold "belongs to" (was originally intended for and is currently in possession of) a person, but that person has chosen to place it in trust for an as-yet unidentified recipient. In that sense, it has already been "lost" by being converted to some purpose (part of it to be dedicated to resolving the family conflicts, part of it perhaps for the trustee's compensation, and part - if any is left over - for the new head). Once it's placed in trust or dedicated to its purpose (creating the bank boxes e.g.), it's already "lost." The person can no longer "lose" or "gain" it because he/she has resolved to get rid of it. My understanding is that Yasu has every intention of spending/giving it away and in the event it isn't found or utilized, plans to do nothing with it. From a very literal reading of Virgilia's red, that is a no-gain, no-loss scenario.
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Old 2010-11-04, 16:02   Link #18418
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I really don't understand your contorted logic

the gold of the Golden Land belongs to this child

It is simply a fact that Yasu/Beatrice was the owner of that gold and the head. And she never loose those with the exception of EP3 and EP6 where the epitaph was solved by Eva and Battler.
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Old 2010-11-04, 16:07   Link #18419
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Basically I'm thinking of the parallels between Kinzo and Beatrice. Neither one really wants the headship; you could say they didn't truly accept it. Kinzo kept trying to escape it with suicide (through the war) and then living an alternate life with Beatrice 1. But even if Kinzo didn't want to be the head of the family he was. Although he was kind of like a puppet.

Maybe Beatrice-3 is also a puppet? Genji's doing? Hmmm...

So, I'm thinking it ended up being the same with Beatrice. Only Claire's story cuts short at the point when she became head... I'm thinking that there's much more story there that... technically is EP1-4..
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Old 2010-11-04, 16:32   Link #18420
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I really don't understand your contorted logic

the gold of the Golden Land belongs to this child

It is simply a fact that Yasu/Beatrice was the owner of that gold and the head. And she never loose those with the exception of EP3 and EP6 where the epitaph was solved by Eva and Battler.
You seem to be completely incapable of grasping a situation in which you can own something and not lose it, even if someone else comes into possession of it.

Also, you clearly have no idea what I'm talking about generally because there is no "logic" going on. It's an example, not a perfect representation. Hell, I'm the one attempting to defend the apparent contradictions of the Yasu scenario now, that's messed up to begin with.
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