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Old 2010-11-04, 22:58   Link #18421
UsagiTenpura
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How about this. Once Yasu solved the epitaph, all the legal paperwork was prepared in advanced by Kinzo/Genji and they fully transfered the legal ownership of everything to her.
The epitaph has 0 value legally now that the one who wanted to use it passed away, so even when Eva, Battler, or everyone solves it they still have no legal claim to it.

I mean can you imagine in court? "Well I'm the second person to solve it so the gold should be mine pretty please?"

In other words, the epitaph is nothing but a riddle now, and beside helping in understand the truth about Yasu it has 0 value now.
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Old 2010-11-05, 00:04   Link #18422
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That still doesn't resolve the issue of Kinzo not actually having legal claim to the gold, himself, and that such legal paperwork goes against Yasu's wishes, and that Krauss would have known if Kinzo lost legal ownership of all his shit.
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Old 2010-11-05, 00:17   Link #18423
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None of these matter if everything is transfered over a will, thus Yasu didn't actually get it all yet since Kinzo isn't even dead yet (legally).

The gold might not belong to Yasu legally that way, but if the island does then it's the same.
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Old 2010-11-05, 03:57   Link #18424
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Maybe, but this doesn't solve the issue of the legality of owning the gold, which is the main issue here. Owning the island isn't sufficient, you can't just claim "I own this property, so I own this stuff that someone left here. Yea."
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Old 2010-11-05, 06:17   Link #18425
Used Can
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Actually, no, that's not what I remember her saying. She said that she didn't feel like she was the head of the family and that she wasn't prepared for it. She said she wanted everything to stay the same, including the assumption that Krauss was to be the next head.
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I'm of the same opinion of Kylon, I don't remember Yasu actually saying that she refused the headship and she wanted Krauss to keep it, for what I could understand Yasu simply said she wanted to put things on hold and let everything stay as it was before.
Spoiler:

Yasu refused the headship. (S)he said (s)he didn't want it. (S)he was happy with learning who (s)he was, and his/her only desire is to keep waiting for Battler.

Yasu kept the ring and Genji still serves him/her, because for him, Yasu will always be his true master (or so, he said).
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Old 2010-11-05, 08:16   Link #18426
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Maybe, but this doesn't solve the issue of the legality of owning the gold, which is the main issue here. Owning the island isn't sufficient, you can't just claim "I own this property, so I own this stuff that someone left here. Yea."
There's also the issue that Krauss allegedly has already put the island in hock for his various debts, and that contract probably is legally binding. If anyone comes out and says "actually, I own Rokkenjima, Krauss had no right to make that deal," stuff's going down.
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Old 2010-11-05, 14:21   Link #18427
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Yasu refused the headship. (S)he said (s)he didn't want it. (S)he was happy with learning who (s)he was, and his/her only desire is to keep waiting for Battler.

Yasu kept the ring and Genji still serves him/her, because for him, Yasu will always be his true master (or so, he said).
Sure, she said that in the middle of the scene. And like you said , Yasu kept the ring and Genji vows to obey her orders. Here's the original Japanese at the end of that scene:

Spoiler for The scene in the below-ground Honored Guest Room:


The main thing here is that Yasu said 'Thank you,' after Genji said he will take her orders since he considers her the true master of the island. This is echos with what we've seen in EP1-4 and EP6 when Shannon and Kanon talk about 'The True Master of the Island.'

Here's some more, right after that scene it goes back to Claire on stage at the ending narration:

Spoiler for Right after the previous scene:


She acknowledges herself as the master of this island. Now this may be different from 'The Head of the Family' though I'm thinking it's pretty much the same thing. She also acknowledges that she is the owner of the 10t of gold right there, and from the last scene where she orders the gold sealed away until later on when it may be needed. This also coincides with the red text from previous episodes about her owning the gold.

And so, I am treating 'master of the island' to be 'master of the island plus the gold, the mansions and the whole Ushiromiya family,' which she claims in the letters in EP1-4.


If you don't subscribe to that, then at the very least she has power over GENSAWAJO and Shannon and Kanon (if they exist separately.) Plus the gold and the island.

But, what I am trying to say is she doesn't want this. She is intentionally trying to free herself from this by throwing it away. Therefore the red about 'having nothing to gain by this' is valid because she is actually trying to lose this power.
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Old 2010-11-05, 14:30   Link #18428
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Again, I don't need to add anything, Kylon said everything I would have said myself and even more.
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Old 2010-11-05, 14:35   Link #18429
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Receiving something you dont want is a burden. You gain something by removing it from yourself even if its just peace of mind or liberty. That red is very vague and I guess its up for the interpretation of the user though.
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Old 2010-11-05, 14:47   Link #18430
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She acknowledges herself as the master of this island. Now this may be different from 'The Head of the Family' though I'm thinking it's pretty much the same thing.
It's an entirely different thing, if you ask me. Read the text in my second pic, (s)he clearly says: "... I am Lion. I'm also the Golden Witch Beatrice as well. Just being able to know that much, for me is enough. I have no intention to claim the family headship.... That role belongs to Klauss-sama."

As for power/influence over Genji, Kumasawa and Nanjo, I won't contend that. The scene was clear enough that they consider Yasu their true master. As for the gold, Yasu said (s)he'd leave the headship to Krauss; (s)he never said anything about the gold. In fact, (s)he even told Genji that if (s)he ever needed the gold, (s)he'd tell him.

But, one way or the other, (s)he refused the offer to become the next head of the family. Yasu doesn't want that, and I'm sure this scene was rather clear on this.
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Old 2010-11-05, 14:48   Link #18431
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Hey, by the way, a thought occurs to me. If we take that last scene from Ch 9 of Claire's story...

Spoiler for Scene:


So she says she is the true master of Rokkenjima and the owner of the endless amount of gold. But that this doesn't satisfy her. That she is just waiting for that day that the 'one person' would return.


We've been shown some inkling that some things do not happen if Battler does not return. Like, if Battler doesn't return then the Epitaph Games don't occur. Or something.

But how do we know the strict effect is Battler returning == cause, and Epitaph Games == result? All we've been shown is a correlation.

Maybe the cause is the Epitaph Games (i.e. whatever Beatrice was planning) and the result is Battler Returns.

After all, we've been shown that Rudolf went to get Battler specifically, with a rather humiliating (for him at least, a kneeling, forehead-to-ground) apology. And then I theorized that he and Kyrie were shown a ton (or 10 tons? heh) of gold to make him do it.

So, when people in EP7 say that if Battler had returned one year later the tragedy would not have occurred, maybe because it would've totally ruined the Epitaph Game? Or could it be that if the Epitaph Game was set in motion a year earlier or later it would've played out differently with the plans of the culprit?

Something to think on...
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Old 2010-11-05, 14:54   Link #18432
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It's an entirely different thing, if you ask me. Read the text in my second pic, she clearly says: "... I am Lion. I'm also the Golden Witch Beatrice as well. Just being able to know that much, for me is enough. I have no intention to claim the family headship. That role belongs to Klauss-sama."
Yes, that part is before the parts I quoted. If someone says, "Oh, no I couldn't possibly have a piece of cake," but the scene hasn't ended yet, is the conclusion that that person didn't have that piece of cake? What if later that person says, "Oh, alright... just a small piece." The answer is... wait for the scene that describes her actually putting the cake in her mouth.

I'm saying the scene changes later. She ends up accepting certain parts of being the head of the family which includes Mastership of the Island, the gold and power over Genji and the rest. So I'm saying she ended up in the role, with the only thing that she didn't accept was the open acknowledgement that she was the head. That she left to Krauss.
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Old 2010-11-05, 15:04   Link #18433
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Receiving something you dont want is a burden. You gain something by removing it from yourself even if its just peace of mind or liberty. That red is very vague and I guess its up for the interpretation of the user though.
But isn't it hypocrite to say that you received something that you didn't want and then you make full use of it to fulfill your desire?

Yasu says she doesn't want the headship and all that power but she sure made use of it. If she really didn't want it at all, all that she needed to do was to spoon feed the solution to the epitaph to Krauss. Instead she decided to keep things on hold and in the end she decided to take advantage of the situation to create her own bet, she basically emulated what Kinzo did in a different way in the hope to obtain a miracle that she herself wished for.
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Old 2010-11-05, 15:08   Link #18434
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I'm saying the scene changes later. She ends up accepting certain parts of being the head of the family which includes Mastership of the Island, the gold and power over Genji and the rest. So I'm saying she ended up in the role, with the only thing that she didn't accept was the open acknowledgement that she was the head. That she left to Krauss.
Yeah, she does see herself (fuck it, I'm tired of the brackets and having to type male and female pronouns for Yasu, from now on, I'll refer to Yasu as a female - hell, the more I re-read EP7, the more I think of Yasu as a woman, either way) as some sort of Master of the Island. However, she has no intentions on managing the Ushiromiya family. She has her own agenda.

If Rokkenjima was the UK, I guess you could say Yasu is the Queen and Krauss is the Prime Minister (he does suck as much as Gordon Brown).
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Old 2010-11-05, 15:24   Link #18435
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But isn't it hypocrite to say that you received something that you didn't want and then you make full use of it to fulfill your desire?
Yes. And Yasu, as written, is a hypocrite. So at least it's in character!

But in seriousness, I think the issue here is more the problem of "is anything really gained or lost?" since we're operating under Virgilia's red that suggests nothing would be. Yet Yasu's burden is clearly portrayed as bothersome, so if nothing else there is an immaterial "gain" from not having to deal with it. If somebody else "finds" the Gold and Yasu, through "Beatrice," acknowledges it, then at the least it's a load off.

Of course you could read Virgilia as an intense fatalist, and "Beatrice" gains or loses nothing because she's dead and any reader who solves the epitaph can't actually claim the gold now that it's exploded. Beatrice gains nothing from being understood; that benefit is for the living reader (Battler? Ange?).
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Old 2010-11-05, 15:42   Link #18436
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I think Virgilia only talked from a material standpoint. Honestly from the very time I've seen that red that's what I concluded, because simply it makes no sense for someone to do something without any reason, not even for a fickle witch.

So basically I think that what Virgilia meant was simply that Beatrice doesn't have anything material to gain from that. She doesn't gain money, she doesn't gain honor, she doesn't gain power, she actually lose it all, or at least she loses the right to have them all if you want to nitpick.

This is nothing strange in my book, when someone does a good action people often make a distinction between people that do it because of a "second end" and those who don't. When "second end" is always intended from a materialistic point of view, the fact that someone might find happiness in helping others is not considered a "second end" in this case.
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Old 2010-11-05, 16:19   Link #18437
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It's not hard to do something for a reason that doesn't involve you gaining or losing anything materially. It's not like the lack of that suddenly erases all motive. I can let someone stand under my umbrella while we walk between two buildings out of pure altruism; I'm sure Beatrice could do the same.

There's also the question of who Virgilia is talking about.
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Old 2010-11-05, 16:26   Link #18438
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Personally, I concluded at first that Virgilia's statements meant that "Beatrice wasn't responsible at ALL."
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Old 2010-11-05, 17:13   Link #18439
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Yeah, she does see herself (fuck it, I'm tired of the brackets and having to type male and female pronouns for Yasu, from now on, I'll refer to Yasu as a female - hell, the more I re-read EP7, the more I think of Yasu as a woman, either way) as some sort of Master of the Island. However, she has no intentions on managing the Ushiromiya family. She has her own agenda.

If Rokkenjima was the UK, I guess you could say Yasu is the Queen and Krauss is the Prime Minister (he does suck as much as Gordon Brown).
Yah, I just gave up and referred to Yasu as a 'she' and Lion as a 'he.' It's easier. Or else I'd have to refer to them with 'it.'

I actually thought for awhile that one of the deciding factors was that maybe the sex of the baby was different in the two universes and that if it was a boy, Natsuhi would be every so slightly dis-inclined to chuck the baby off a cliff. She likes the wee-wee, I guess?

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Personally, I concluded at first that Virgilia's statements meant that "Beatrice wasn't responsible at ALL."
I think at that point, Battler was speculating on Beatrice's motives in front of Virgilia and Beatrice. And Virgilia brought that up to stop him from doubting her. IIRC. This was in EP5 where she was already comatose, right? Or was this earlier? Or, I think there may have been several scenes where Battler was question the motive of various people...
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Old 2010-11-05, 17:17   Link #18440
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It was EP5 Beatrice was already comatose and yes Battler was speculating that Beatrice had something material to gain for herself, proof is that Virgilia even had to tell him fair and square that Beatrice didn't do all that to gain the gold.
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