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Old 2009-08-18, 15:41   Link #1841
sento
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The way that Ryuukishi worded it, the "trap" seems related to the plot.

The trap is probably Erika.
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Old 2009-08-18, 16:02   Link #1842
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Originally Posted by sento View Post
The way that Ryuukishi worded it, the "trap" seems related to the plot.

The trap is probably Erika.
Erika's a tra-

...Oh yeah we already did this gag with Natsuhi.

It probably is Erika, I think. She seems... too odd.
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Old 2009-08-18, 16:56   Link #1843
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Originally Posted by Rias View Post
1. Erika seeing both Shannon and Kannon, or only seeing one, is one thing. Telling everyone that she saw 2 distinct entity or only saw one is another thing. Erika, just like red text, does not owe anyone to disclose and confirm every single infomation. She only needs to say something that works for her.

2. Double, or multiple personality, is part of the possibilities of Shannon = Kanon theory. Along side with various ways of switching back and forth.

3. What I'm interested in, and applying, is during the two days, Oct4-5. What happens before, is not of interest. All that matter is that there's a possibility that Shannon and Kanon are actually one of the same during the two days. Whether they are disgusing, people are delusional, they are shown fantasy elements, or mutliple personality. Mistook someone's appearance, isn't a violation of rule#10. Just as Kinzo is "alive" isn't a violation of rule #10 (in ep1). Kanon or Shannon doesn't have to be dead. One of them just have to NOT show up (dead, didn't show up to work, didn't exist in the first place), during the two days.

4. "For your theory you need to check every moment since they were born, cause out of the game any1 can be objective, for mine I just need one moment they were sen together, at any time." <-- That itself is the devil's proof. We havn't seen them together under the POV of someone that we can put absolute confidence in.

5. In-your-face is one thing, but the truth is another thing. Just becuase Mion stabbed Keiichi doesn't mean Mion is Mion; and we've been prepared for that for a long time. All I'm saying is that, the theory isn't completely dead.
But my whole point is that a separate personality from someone who is dead isn't another personality, but just a form of immitation, therefor if one of them actually existed in one point of the time, Shkanon theory is wrong. THe only posssibility for this thory is an original personality by the anme of Shannon/Kanon. Also the red text says that no other than Kanon can claim his title, so Kanon had to die before starting working on Rokkenjima and Shannon created another personality to support her=> only possibility=double personality ebfor >Kanon (if he even existed)started working at Rokkenjima

Also, the killer of K1 in Watanagashi was the true Mion, since Shion and her swapped in the ceremony, so the roles we see are their original roles so I can say in red Shion had nothing to do with the killings, the killer,as seen in Watanagashi, was Mion, but no that Mion, it was the original
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Old 2009-08-18, 17:42   Link #1844
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
There is a trap of some kind in here...the question is...what?
Spoiler for :
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Old 2009-08-18, 18:11   Link #1845
Rias
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Originally Posted by Leinne View Post
But my whole point is that a separate personality from someone who is dead isn't another personality, but just a form of immitation, therefor if one of them actually existed in one point of the time, Shkanon theory is wrong. THe only posssibility for this thory is an original personality by the anme of Shannon/Kanon. Also the red text says that no other than Kanon can claim his title, so Kanon had to die before starting working on Rokkenjima and Shannon created another personality to support her=> only possibility=double personality ebfor >Kanon (if he even existed)started working at Rokkenjima

Also, the killer of K1 in Watanagashi was the true Mion, since Shion and her swapped in the ceremony, so the roles we see are their original roles so I can say in red Shion had nothing to do with the killings, the killer,as seen in Watanagashi, was Mion, but no that Mion, it was the original
First, I gotta recommand you reading up about what the Shannon=Kanon theory is about. It's not as simple as "Shannon = Kanon becuase Battler didn't see them together". There's more than that, and I don't want to keep arguing about stuff that has been argued before. I only wish to discuss the possibilities of it remaining even with ep5 in place. Red text, how they can switch, and other pre-ep5 elements has been discussed before and are still valid. For example, there's 3 maniuplations of Kanon's "title" so that it does not contradicts with the red text in ep4.

Second, I don't see why you are having such a hard time with "misinterperation". Sure, disguises might be limited by rule #10, but misinterperation is not.


Third, you can't even name "true" Mion in Watanagashi-hen. Their past is only shown in Meakashi-hen, and that's why I used that analogy. Just becuase you see Mion stabbed Keiichi, doesn't mean Mion really stabbed keiichi. This is the same argument of "just becuase Eva shot Battler, doesn't mean Eva really shot Battler." (as argued by the "Meta-Battler resigning results in real life battler being able to see fantasy scenes theory") Again, I was using that as an analogy to show that "just becuase we see two entities, doesn't mean there's really two entities." (I really want to drop this point becuase it's not related, and probably a bad analogy to use in the first place)

Lastly, try not to use red text unless you are quoting existing red text.
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Old 2009-08-19, 09:21   Link #1846
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About how reliable is Erika's point of view... I've just noticed that Battler actually attempted to claim that the gold that this piece battle found with Erika was merely a fantasy, and then had that negated with red.

So... Battler really doesn't seem to take the idea that Erika's point of view is an infallible truth. Considering that, should everyone really assume that she really replaced episode 1-4 Battler just because she's a "detective"? I don't think ep 1-4 Battler even was described like that at any point previously.
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Old 2009-08-19, 09:26   Link #1847
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Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Wait, I thought Jessica, George, Maria, Kumasawa and Gohda weren't in the parlor. Wasn't it the parents (excluding Krauss and Natsuhi), along with Shannon, Kanon and Battler?
Huh yeah, my mistake, I went too fast when typing this. Indeed, the other 3 cousins and the servants without the crest were already sent to the guesthouse.
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Originally Posted by NeonZ View Post
About how reliable is Erika's point of view... I've just noticed that Battler actually attempted to claim that the gold that this piece battle found with Erika was merely a fantasy, and then had that negated with red.
No, actually, Battler had doubt about the gold, and Lambda just cut him short without any delay. And it was still Battler's perspective.
Quote:
So... Battler really doesn't seem to take the idea that Erika's point of view is an infallible truth. Considering that, should everyone really assume that she really replaced episode 1-4 Battler just because she's a "detective"? I don't think ep 1-4 Battler even was described like that at any point previously.
No in fact, Battler never stated her perspective was unreliable. The thing is that he often questioned her proofs and statements, but quickly got overwhelmed by Gertrude, Cornelia and Dlanor's red.
And no, Erika really take a role that doesn't influence Beato's game, therefore, it should not affect Battler's role from ep1-4.
This is the reason why Ep5 isn't a Ep1 with an extra character, but something totally different.
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Old 2009-08-19, 09:51   Link #1848
NeonZ
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No, actually, Battler had doubt about the gold, and Lambda just cut him short without any delay. And it was still Battler's perspective.
"Perspective" isn't really the correct word, sorry.

People are saying that there couldn't be any fantasy elements in scenes with Erika, even if the scenes aren't from her perspective, due to the way Piece Battler's presence worked in previous episodes.

Didn't Battler ask if the gold was real or just a fake/fantasy? If Erika's presence stopped every fantasy element, that question wouldn't have been necessary.

Quote:
And no, Erika really take a role that doesn't influence Beato's game, therefore, it should not affect Battler's role from ep1-4.
This is the reason why Ep5 isn't a Ep1 with an extra character, but something totally different.
Yet, everyone is applying to her the same points that were applied to the previous piece Battler just because she's said to be a "detective", even though Battler never was described like that.
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Old 2009-08-19, 10:03   Link #1849
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Originally Posted by NeonZ View Post
Didn't Battler ask if the gold was real or just a fake/fantasy? If Erika's presence stopped every fantasy element, that question wouldn't have been necessary.
No, not at all. Battler himself acknowledged the gold exist.
He doubted about the gold, since only Eva and Rosa found it, so since only 2 persons claimed it, it isn't at 100% the truth and can be the doing of the Fantasy Side.
However, he clearly put himself between quote, saying he opened the cat box.

And Lambda just confirmed.
At this point, Battler was still thinking his perspective was reliable enough, even though he was certain that the Kinzo he saw was definitely something wrong.

Quote:
Yet, everyone is applying to her the same points that were applied to the previous piece Battler just because she's said to be a "detective", even though Battler never was described like that.
Battler wasn't described like that, but he is the only character that suit the detective role in Episode 1-4.
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Old 2009-08-19, 10:10   Link #1850
NeonZ
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Battler wasn't described like that, but he is the only character that suit the detective role in Episode 1-4.
Did he, really? Only in episode 3 he's remotely detective-like due to his accusation. Meta Battler acted like a detective, not Piece Battler.

Erika is the first detective-like "piece".
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Old 2009-08-19, 10:10   Link #1851
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The fact of the matter is that Knox's rules were only introduced in Ep5 so they are not exactly confirmed to be retroactively applicable to 1-4. Even then unlike Erika's confirmation in red as the detective in Ep5, we have no guarantee Battler is playing the same role in Ep1-4.
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Old 2009-08-19, 10:15   Link #1852
Klashikari
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Originally Posted by NeonZ View Post
Did he, really? Only in episode 3 he's remotely detective-like due to his accusation. Meta Battler acted like a detective, not Piece Battler.

Erika is the first detective-like "piece".
And yet, Meta Battler was taking the perspective of his own piece.
Furthermore, you don't need to make accusation to start figuring about the truth, and by this extension, taking the role of the detective. Piece Battler was almost the only one who was actually trying to figure what was going on in all episodes, even if he couldn't have the same privilege as Erika.
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Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
The fact of the matter is that Knox's rules were only introduced in Ep5 so they are not exactly confirmed to be retroactively applicable to 1-4. Even then unlike Erika's confirmation in red as the detective in Ep5, we have no guarantee Battler is playing the same role in Ep1-4.
They have to, because the rules were also applying on facts Battler brought from previous episodes and they were denied until he became a sorcerer.
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Old 2009-08-19, 11:24   Link #1853
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Regarding Battler, I have a problem with one of the red text used in episode 5.

Spoiler for EP5 red text:
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Old 2009-08-19, 12:22   Link #1854
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The translation should be:
Battler-kun is not the culprit. Battler-kun didn't kill anyone. This is applied to all games.
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Old 2009-08-19, 12:40   Link #1855
Ssol
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
The translation should be:
Battler-kun is not the culprit. Battler-kun didn't kill anyone. This is applied to all games.
Ahh, thank you now it makes sense.
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Old 2009-08-19, 21:26   Link #1856
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Marathoning through this thread is about as bad as marathoning the series itself!

Though experience with a certain 30,000 page thread of Asuki has steeled me for this battle.

I have a few points to raise, but I need to clarify something first, in case I missed it: Is present time being 1986 ever mentioned in red?



A little off-topic, but a funny thought:

Since the definition of a species is whether one can reproduce with another, the most screw-up (lol) way to test if witches are not human would be for Battler and Beato/Vigil/Chibeat/whoever else you like to get it on in between board games, and see if the witches get pregnant. They got all infinity to wait for result anyway. No contraceptives or measures against barrier to insemination must be undertaken during this mini-game.
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Old 2009-08-20, 03:23   Link #1857
porchoky
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I vaugely remember Beatrice or someone proclaiming in red or otherwise stating (reliably, not as a trick or anything) that the game takes place during those 2 days in 1986 and ends after the 5th of October. If you're getting this idea from a certian other game, I don't see how it would work anyways since everyone dies...

Also becuase I couldn't put this in the anime discussion threads (only an EP4 spoiler, but has nothing to do with the current discussion)
Spoiler:
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Old 2009-08-20, 03:34   Link #1858
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I personally thinks it was definitely Rosa.
The thing is that Rosa is unable to actually control her emotions and always blame OTHERS instead herself or the right person.

Of course, there is nothing that can confirm if everything shown in Ep4 is 100% trustworthy, but if we start the premises of this, and how Rosa was shown "trigger happy" in all Episodes, it is very likely that Rosa was really unable to love Maria and blamed her for being unable to get happiness.
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Old 2009-08-20, 05:28   Link #1859
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Rosa demonstrates the clinical traits of bipolar syndrome though... so I'm not so sure if I could blame her completely just yet...



On Present Time in Red: If it is mentioned like that, then it might just only refer to the game having occurred in 1986, but not the meta-world, which doesn't strangle my little theory. But I don't recall any red regarding present time though, so... does anyone else have a clue?

Sorry, just want to get my facts right before I shoot my mouth off something silly.
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Old 2009-08-20, 10:28   Link #1860
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Originally Posted by MeisterBabylon View Post
A little off-topic, but a funny thought:

Since the definition of a species is whether one can reproduce with another, the most screw-up (lol) way to test if witches are not human would be for Battler and Beato/Vigil/Chibeat/whoever else you like to get it on in between board games, and see if the witches get pregnant. They got all infinity to wait for result anyway. No contraceptives or measures against barrier to insemination must be undertaken during this mini-game.
This is a decent concept for a hentai doujinshi, I suppose...
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