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Old 2010-11-10, 20:37   Link #18721
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I'd call it unlikely not just because of the red, but because pretty much the first thing Bern says when Lambda pulls the phone call on her is "come on, did that really happen?"

While it's certainly always fun when the first thing offhandedly suggested turns out to be true, I'd argue we are also supposed to have the same reaction as Bern at that point, as the entire plot thread just seems to come out of nowhere. So if the immediate reaction is to dismiss it as having not actually happened or the caller not actually existing, it seems like Ryukishi wants us to wonder how it could be true even if it's not exactly as portrayed.

Or maybe it's a fake-out.
I agree. Those phone calls were probably true, and while at the time they didn't seem very likely, the later episodes made them quite plausible.

That being said, maybe the phone calls themselves didn't happen at all in Rokkenjima Prime, but the whole situation described in EP5 could symbolize an actual blackmail of some sort from Yasu to Natsuhi.
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Old 2010-11-10, 23:31   Link #18722
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You know, I'm starting to think that the letter Natsuhi read at the end of EP1 that made her challenge 'the witch' was something which alluded to The Man From 19 Years ago. It would explain why she had to shut the cousins out and deal with this situation personally.

I still am not thinking that The Man From 19 Years ago plot has any relationship to any of the real murders though, although I'm willing to admit if they were done in some or all of the other episodes they would add huge noise to any of Natsuhi's strange behaviors...
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Old 2010-11-11, 08:00   Link #18723
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
You know, I'm starting to think that the letter Natsuhi read at the end of EP1 that made her challenge 'the witch' was something which alluded to The Man From 19 Years ago. It would explain why she had to shut the cousins out and deal with this situation personally.
Oh that's been on my head for a while....
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Old 2010-11-12, 10:30   Link #18724
Cao Ni Ma
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So I went back to try and analyze the characters eye colors with a little more precision as I was distraught over how some believed Maria's eye color where purple instead of a dark blue. I though I was going blind but I found one particular shade that goes very well with Maria's eyes and also found a possible symbolism as well

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_blue
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Old 2010-11-12, 13:55   Link #18725
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Now that I compare, I have to concede it probably is Royal Blue. It's mostly hard to tell because the irises are so small, and at that level of degree, the human eye does fail to discern details without closer inspection.

Still, I think the symbolism of their eye colors is probably unchanged from the general "Human with Fantasy Persona" thing.
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Old 2010-11-12, 14:06   Link #18726
Cao Ni Ma
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I find it more interesting than Maria shares the same eye color (technically in name only) that all the other witches in the games. They all have the light shade version of royal blue though.

Another symbolism for the color, its the color of royalty, Maria wears a crown. Blue is also a color that is linked with the virgin Mary in catholic religion. Of course Maria is the latin based version of that name.
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Old 2010-11-12, 14:35   Link #18727
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Just when did he come back? It has to have been some time after October 1985.
Jessica receives a phone call from him right before the family conference in 1986, and it seems as though he had only returned just recently before that. Might have been in the summer.

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Another symbolism for the color, its the color of royalty, Maria wears a crown. Blue is also a color that is linked with the virgin Mary in catholic religion. Of course Maria is the latin based version of that name.
Just a random thought, but.... Yasu signs her letters as "Maria Ushiromiya".

What if her name actually IS Maria? That would explain why Kinzo was so opposed to Rosa giving her daughter the same name.
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Old 2010-11-12, 14:41   Link #18728
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Let's remember that although we want answers to ALL our questions, we have to remember that when you filter this all down, this is a GAME where Lambdadelta wants to trap Bernkanstel in her trap forever. Remember the witches' role in this is much more important than the actual stories. Its their narrative that makes Higurashi and Umineko a Game.
So from that perspective working backwards, how do these stories resolve Lambdadelta's game to get Bern. Maybe thinking this way we can look at the stores differently.
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Old 2010-11-12, 14:42   Link #18729
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Except Lambda didnt write any of the games until Episode 5, this was entirely the work of "Beatrice" on a meta level, and Lambda only sponsored it.
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Old 2010-11-12, 15:19   Link #18730
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She only sponsored this game because she knew she could possible lure Bern into a maze she wouldn't be able to get out of. She knew Bern wouldn't be able to resist this new game being created. Their situation may not have anything to do with the "culprit " or "beatrice" or any of the mysteries presented, but to me Lambda and BERN'S story is just as important to me or more so than the fictions presented. Especially for any future R7 story, the witches are actually more important to his series and narrative. I guess I'm just hoping that their story in Umineko gets resolved as much as the Overall Story. Im just a Bern freak, i love how she is the connection to all fragments and world's and time loop's etc. I mean she is the series.
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Old 2010-11-12, 15:21   Link #18731
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34 definitely add some level of trickery to her game, but Battler's game confirmed that the "Master of the (Umineko) World" is 19 years old. So, even if many details are not really true, at the very least, the age seems to be.

As for why Yasu used Maria's name for the letter, I think the reason could be that it was the best choice. She couldn't use Yasu, because outside the Fukuin people, no one knows who Yasu is. It's even worse with Ushiromiya Lion, since no one (alive) knows who that is. She could have written Shannon or Kanon, but I suppose that, since she was playing those characters (assuming that ShKanon is true, of course), then it'd probably be a bit too suspicious. In addition to them, I think using the names of the other servants or Nanjo would have been weird. Jessica and George were nice people, but they were too much on the normal side. The adults are the ones with the higher chances of being the culprits; so, it'd probably have been odd to use their names. Maria was probably the best choice since she was always between reality and magic, not to mention that, amongst all the characters, she's the only one that, from the very beginning, you could tell was quite likely innocent.
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Old 2010-11-12, 15:24   Link #18732
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PsychoShion View Post
She only sponsored this game because she knew she could possible lure Bern into a maze she wouldn't be able to get out of. She knew Bern wouldn't be able to resist this new game being created. Their situation may not have anything to do with the "culprit " or "beatrice" or any of the mysteries presented, but to me Lambda and BERN'S story is just as important to me or more so than the fictions presented. Especially for any future R7 story, the witches are actually more important to his series and narrative. I guess I'm just hoping that their story in Umineko gets resolved as much as the Overall Story. Im just a Bern freak, i love how she is the connection to all fragments and world's and time loop's etc. I mean she is the series.
No, the nature of the witches shouldn't be taken into consideration when trying to solve the mystery in Rokkenjima, at least from the mystery/detective novel aspect of the games. Initially we believed all of this was a quarrel between witches and then in EP5 we thought they where actually teamed up to take down Beatrice. It really doesn't matter though since none of this explains or hints as to what really happened in that island or the intentions that the players had.
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Old 2010-11-12, 15:25   Link #18733
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Maybe it would be better to ask why she DIDN'T sign it as Beatrice instead.

Although... I guess in her mind, once everything 'ended' Beatrice would be dead.
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Old 2010-11-12, 15:28   Link #18734
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Well clearly she seems to be to you, but ... no she's not the serie.

Until arc 4 she was a minor character who barely appeared. Like other meta character, she likely means to represent something.

Her relation with LambdaDelta to me parallels the relation of readers vs mystery writers, and thus Battler and Beatrice's relation, or Ange and Hachijou. That link is very constant in the serie.

My general take is very simple, Bernkastel is the readers who try to "win" a mystery a novel. LD's more complex, but I guess seeing her as a sponsor for mystery writer isn't too far off. By her personality alone I'd say she constantly sides with what's the most interesting plot twist.

If you're looking for a relation or analogy to Higurashi, my assumption is that the readers of Higurashi managed to figure out the truth before the release of arc 7 and 8. Probably akin to Higurashi's arc 7, these people likely found out who the culprit was but wasn't interested in her "why dunnit" and simply tagged her a "villain", and Ryukishi decided to make a character based on that experience.

At the very least, that's my take.
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Old 2010-11-12, 15:34   Link #18735
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Maybe it would be better to ask why she DIDN'T sign it as Beatrice instead.

Although... I guess in her mind, once everything 'ended' Beatrice would be dead.
I think that is because Beatrice was written as the antagonist. It wouldn't have made much sense to have Beatrice plead people to solve this case. Of course, it could have been written as a letter of challenge, but having Beatrice write a message would probably have taken a bit of that veil of darkness which was supposed to surround her. So, using a human character was, quite possibly, the best choice.
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Old 2010-11-12, 15:48   Link #18736
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Because Maria is the Witch of Origins. When you consider what that title actually means outside of the magical perspective, everything clicks into place.
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Old 2010-11-12, 16:34   Link #18737
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Just a random thought, but.... Yasu signs her letters as "Maria Ushiromiya".

What if her name actually IS Maria? That would explain why Kinzo was so opposed to Rosa giving her daughter the same name.
That's been suggested, yet apparently flatly contradicted by the claim in two separate places in ep7 that Lion was the intended name for this alleged individual. Now whether that's true I have no idea. It certainly made a great deal more sense before ep7.

As to not signing it Kanon/Shannon, I'm still unconvinced anyone would know who those two characters are except in a fiction. The notion of Maria being the signatory because of her origin role is compelling at this point, but honestly we still just don't know.
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Old 2010-11-12, 16:42   Link #18738
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That would make the "Happy Halloween Maria" thing on the chapel in arc 2 even more disturbing then it already is. Not like we don't have to deal with many disturbing things already.

Well there remains the question...
How did Battler learned about the name Yoshiya?
How did Bern know the name Lion?

Edit: Off topic, concerning Ange and Maria in arc 4.
Over reading the whole thing about magic... I've came to wonder something...
Ange believed Maria cried all night long and made a mess out of her room out of frustration, but then wrote things differently in her diary. Should that view remain true it tends to implies that this sort of "magic" is something that is done afterward. Like reinterpreting your past and convince yourself it was that way. The chronology of the "future" of arc 4 is also sorta messed up. Ange at St-Lucile doesn't seem any younger and overall the events suggest the scenes we see there don't seem to have happened long ago. However when referring to her using magic they talk about long ago. I'm starting to think an interpretation of this is that starting from when she was in the hotel room she began to rewrite her own memories. That ended up including the whole things with the stakes at St-Lucile.
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Old 2010-11-12, 16:49   Link #18739
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This is assuming that the Yoshiya name isn't made up or that the entire Lion universe isn't a complete and absolute fiction.
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Old 2010-11-12, 17:03   Link #18740
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More food for though, the origins of the name Maria is Mry or mr which in egiptian meant Beloved or Love.
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