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Old 2010-11-18, 00:02   Link #18881
erneiz_hyde
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I'm pretty sure that someone in the game said that the real cause of the big tragedy was because Battler came back at the year of 1986? And that if he came back one year earlier or later, the magnitude of the tragedy wouldn't be as big as we had seen up till now? Had anyone considered this factor?

btw oot, a crack/joke theory that I just thought:
Spoiler:
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Old 2010-11-18, 02:04   Link #18882
Judoh
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I've seen a theory like yours twice before, but you brought up some different elements.
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Old 2010-11-18, 03:13   Link #18883
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Actually, was it established that it was a direct or indirect causation? That is Battler coming back -> Rokkenjima Tragedy?

Or was his coming back and the Rokkenjima Tragedy a correlation?

This is important because it could be:
Something else (i.e. say, someone's plans) --> Rokkenjima Tragedy AND Battler coming back.

In this case, it could be that if Battler doesn't come back then a Rokkenjima Tragedy occurs, but maybe in a vastly different way that we've never seen in the stories before.
I'm talking about the tragedy in yasu's heart, which might or might not be the cause of the whole Rokkenjima tragedy.
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Old 2010-11-18, 03:35   Link #18884
Kylon99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I'm talking about the tragedy in yasu's heart, which might or might not be the cause of the whole Rokkenjima tragedy.
I'd have to agree at this point it's something like that. I can understand the problems between Yasu and Battler a bit better after EP7. But what I want to know is how does the problems she have relate to the rest of the family?

So, I did say before that she may be having problems with the responsibility on her shoulders or she came to hate it and the siblings constant fighting. Is that a good explanation?


By the way, as being discussed somewhere else not on this board, the idea is that in EP3 whoever 'Kanon' was simply killed Nanjo and walked into the room, took up the 'Kanon' impersonation again and guided Jessica out to 'safety.' Or at least to comfort her since we know he didn't lead him quite far enough.

So it seems to me that this 'Kanon' person is:
- can kill Nanjo
- is nice to Jessica

Now, if Kanon is simply Yasu, then the same question arrives as above... what could've caused her to be able to really kill Nanjo outright like that? I thought Yasu was fairly happy with GENSAWAJO. Or perhaps she only likes Genji and Kumasawa but doesn't trust Nanjo? But enough to kill him?

If it's not Yasu, do we have anywhere enough evidence to show who could kill Nanjo without remorse and be able to play Kanon? Hmmmm...
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Old 2010-11-18, 04:39   Link #18885
AuraTwilight
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"Kanon" was confirmed dead in red, though like, ages ago. I know that doesn't necessarily mean anything, but at the very least, I would take it to mean that, if anything, "Kanon" is not an agent that killed Nanjo.
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Old 2010-11-18, 05:49   Link #18886
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For all we know Jessica might have been dead by the time Battler arrived to the room. Upon returning to the room Battler is the only person alive and Eva logically deduces that Battler is the culprit and kills him. Then she finds the real murderer and finds out she's killed some innocent people , takes down the real murderer. Guilt ridden she decides to adopt Ange but can't quite get over it and ends up abusing her.
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Old 2010-11-18, 11:11   Link #18887
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Except Battler's last exchange with Eva is along the lines "You're a murderer, Eva." "Yes, I am. (BANG)"

(It's rather odd that George, Shannon, and Battler are apparently killed in the parlor, and Jessica is last seen alive there.)
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Old 2010-11-18, 14:03   Link #18888
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I always figured Eva shooting Battler was a fantasy scene, like when he "met Beatrice" after he surrendered in EP2. Pretty much all of the first episodes, save EPisode 4, end with a fantasy scene that Battler is witness to, as the "game" is concluded.
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Old 2010-11-18, 14:33   Link #18889
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I am 100% positive that scene is true (at least in that specific game), the logic is the same as with other similar situations: if it's a fantasy scene you don't need to show it out of contest and you don't need to cut it and only show a glimpse of it. This is a pattern that fits more with a true scene that the author manipulated in a way to give a completely wrong impression.


Battler doesn't say "Eva you are a murderer" he says "Eva, you are the culprit!"
Eva's gun is a toy.
BANG!
Battler loses. Sheep and Wolf puzzle.
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Old 2010-11-18, 14:35   Link #18890
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
I always figured Eva shooting Battler was a fantasy scene, like when he "met Beatrice" after he surrendered in EP2. Pretty much all of the first episodes, save EPisode 4, end with a fantasy scene that Battler is witness to, as the "game" is concluded.
The way I see it that what Battler sees is turned into a fantasy scene either when he's under the influence of alcohol or drugs (yet to happen, probably) or after the clock hits 24:00 on the second day. In EP1 he sees Beatrice and butterflies because time is over, in EP2 he sees Beato because he's drunk and in EP4 it's the clock hitting 24 again. But in EP3 Battler doesn't seem to be out of his mind for any reason and the time isn't over yet (for Eva still has enough time to escape to Kuwadorian before the explosion), which leads me to believe Eva shooting Battler at the end is what really happens.

Don't get me wrong, I don't believe Eva to be the culprit. I think it goes by something along these lines: she's messed up by the devastation of losing her family, the delusions of a witch born out of her greed and the messiness of the two days in general. This finally leads her to really believe she's the culprit and she shoots Battler in her madness (and/or to protect herself from being killed if she believes that Battler is after her life).
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Old 2010-11-18, 15:22   Link #18891
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Alternately: it's a sassy comeback line to a person she thinks is the killer. After all, it's just her and Battler... and if Eva knows it's not her...
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Old 2010-11-18, 16:01   Link #18892
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Alternately: it's a sassy comeback line to a person she thinks is the killer. After all, it's just her and Battler... and if Eva knows it's not her...
That's my alternative as well. Though they shouldn't know if Jessica or Nanjo are dead yet...
They could have had some kind of Eva-culprit argument going though, like in the Meta-world, at least to the part before Nanjo's murder. There are a couple of Meta-scenes which I easily combine with the real world (with understandable variations though), in the sense of Erika's and Maria's battle over the cup-and-candy -magic.


About the logic error in EP6, I'm sure it is brought up before, it is possible for it to be solved with Shkanon without contradicting the reds and without resorting to things like personality death. It is just the use of word 'exist' to only apply to living people. So it is solved by Shannon escaping from the window, changing to Kanon, freeing Battler, hiding in the closet and dying either by her own hand or Erika killing her by shooting through the door or something. Then Kanon does not exist in the quest room. Shkanon also solves the final red, with Erika being on the island, there is still only 17 people because Shannon and Kanon are the same.

Following this I'd like to bring more light on the word 'exist'. A thing in its favor is that is has been shown that Kinzo's corpse is on the island, while it is said in red that Kinzo does not exist. It has many dubious points though. First, it makes the meaning of "No more than 17 humans exist on this island" strange. It would mean there shouldn't be more than 17 living people on the island. More people could arrive if a sufficient amount of people die. This can be because of differences in translation, though. Beatrice says in EP3 that "there are no more than 18 people on this island" (notice the lack of the word exist). In EP4 Tea Party she says "Before now, I have proclaimed that no more than 18 humans exist on this island" (so she has said no more 'exist' while not actually saying 'exist' before). So before I press further I'd like to know if there really is some kind of special word for 'exist' in japanese in reds regarding the cases where it becomes the most vital. It is the most plausible solution I can think of for EP6's Battler's guest room, as I can't swallow personality death... Maybe I've been trolled too much to see better.

If it really is about the 'exist', I wonder why Erika didn't notice it. It's "not a real mystery"... Maybe that's why she didn't see it.
But if EP6's final red is about Shannon and Kanon being the same person and tha'ts why with Erika there's still only 17, what does it even have to do with Erika's existence and the truth about herself? Maybe it is only about Erika not existing while still keeping Shannon and Kanon separate (for the time being, if it goes there).

The creepy thing is, if Shkanon is real and Erika doesn't exist, that would make the number of people 16, enough to snuck in a 17th Person X. We have the red of "18th person X does not exist", but does it exclude X being the 17th person? The boy from 19 years ago... though a person not included early in the story cannot be the culprit.
Not likely and kinda cheap, but still a little interesting.
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Last edited by Bluemail; 2010-11-18 at 16:24.
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Old 2010-11-18, 17:16   Link #18893
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Sheep and Wolf puzzle.
Wasn't that line attached to Jessica's death tip in that game?

I always wondered what it meant...
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Old 2010-11-18, 17:22   Link #18894
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Wasn't that line attached to Jessica's death tip in that game?

I always wondered what it meant...
Nope. Battler's death tip.

Jessica's says that she was hugging Kanon until the last moment. In other words "I love you Kanon" "BOOM".
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Old 2010-11-18, 21:22   Link #18895
Leafsnail
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"Jessica lost her eyesight. Battler was with her.

Wolves and sheep puzzle."

Yeah, kindof odd. Maybe they are playing some kind of game where the culprit is allowed to commit a "murder" whenever she's alone with someone. And everyone just forgot to tell Battler.
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Old 2010-11-18, 21:42   Link #18896
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
Battler was with her.
...

When was Battler alone with Jessica at any time during that game?
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Old 2010-11-18, 22:02   Link #18897
Cao Ni Ma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
...

When was Battler alone with Jessica at any time during that game?
They where alone a lot in that game actually, when George went to see Shannon is one instance. If I remember right, he even fell asleep in the same room as her.
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Old 2010-11-18, 22:05   Link #18898
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That her should mean Eva right? "Jessica lost her eyesight. Battler was with Eva (alone). Wolves and sheep puzzle."
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Old 2010-11-19, 04:06   Link #18899
Kaisos Erranon
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That her should mean Eva right? "Jessica lost her eyesight. Battler was with Eva (alone). Wolves and sheep puzzle."
If it doesn't, the consequences of that line are, um, bad.
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Old 2010-11-19, 09:58   Link #18900
Renall
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If it doesn't, the consequences of that line are, um, bad.
The evidence for Battlertrice mounts by the day. Maybe chronotrig can clarify what that TIP specifically says?
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I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
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This story is a redacted confession.

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