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Old 2010-11-25, 22:42   Link #19061
UsagiTenpura
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The odd thing to me is the Oyakata-Sama Gohda mentions.
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Old 2010-11-25, 22:44   Link #19062
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
The odd thing to me is the Oyakata-Sama Gohda mentions.
He's talking about Kinzo, right?
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Old 2010-11-25, 22:48   Link #19063
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Is this how he refers to him normally in the VN? If so disregard what I wrote.
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Old 2010-11-25, 22:50   Link #19064
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
He's talking about Kinzo, right?
Yeah I pointed this name out before thinking it was Kinzo's wife, and someone told me Oyakata sama is an honorific or something for lord or master. One anime they use it in is Sengoku basara.
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Old 2010-11-25, 22:51   Link #19065
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Every servant call Kinzo that way.
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Old 2010-11-25, 22:59   Link #19066
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Originally Posted by KazePT View Post
On "Notes From a Certain Cook", we have Gohda's testimony about the strange event that happened when he "defied" Beatrice existence while talking to Kanon.
Supposedly, Kanon started to work on the mansion, after Shannon right? Never once, Gohda talks about Shannon on this note (when he saw the feminine silhouette it never crossed his thought that it could be Shannon recklessly wondering around)

This could mean that Shannon on the real island doesn't exist, adding to the Shkanon theory (believing that only Kanon exists).
Even though the figure Gohda observed was feminine, "among the servants, there is no one with a silhouette like that." If being a woman were the only important detail, then he would have mentioned Kumasawa as a possibility, but she was ruled out too. So it seems that he ruled out both her and Shannon (and any other hypothetical female servants) because their body types didn't match up with what he saw, regardless of their gender.
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Old 2010-11-25, 23:08   Link #19067
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One common theory is that Gohda thought: "It can't be Shannon, Shannon has huge boobs!"
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Old 2010-11-25, 23:13   Link #19068
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I'm also assuming he saw her on a day Shannon wasn't scheduled to work and shouldn't have been on Rokkenjima.
He seemed to doubt what he had seen he'd probably just assume he didn't see her well but it was one of the female servants if any had been scheduled... is what I think.
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Old 2010-11-25, 23:17   Link #19069
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The only thing I can think of is that Ryukishi must be giving himself the ability to write how people can misidentify other people on sight. Other than Kinzo, that is.
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Old 2010-11-26, 00:35   Link #19070
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You know what, after taking a look at that cover for EP8 again, it seems to suggest to me that Ange and Beatrice are the ones who are on the outside and everyone inside the picture is 'happy' but also... dead. Well, Lambdadelta and Bernkastel are also there, outside the picture but...

I wonder if it was Beatrice who survived and not Battler? It's possible that she left her last instructions for the servants on the morning of the 4th and then just... left the island? We have all sorts of reds about how the outside can't interfere with Rokkenjima but there isn't really anything to say that people can't leave. Especially if they take the last boat on the island, say maybe in the submarine pen?



EDIT: It could also mean that the people in the painting are fictional and so is the 'Battler' in the story. And perhaps Beatrice/Yasu left the island in search of the real Battler, who really didn't come to the island that day.
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Old 2010-11-26, 02:44   Link #19071
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Beatrice is outside and alive because she is Battler, obviously.
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Old 2010-11-26, 03:17   Link #19072
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I find it interesting that through Umineko, we are getting to watch at least 4 different aspects of the events around Rokkenjima. There is the present, human perspective. There is the people discussing and arguing about the lives and events that the humans are going through. There are the pasts that have led up to the people's perspectives. And then finally there is the future perspective.

The 1st side, or aspect, of the story is that of the parent's, servant's, and kid's perspectives during the 2 days on Rokkenjima. This would include the worries the parents have on their minds about extorting each other and being suspicious. This would include their stresses, such as Natsuhi and Krauss over Kinzo's charade, or people's thoughts and feelings, such as between George and Shannon during the 2 days.

The 2nd aspect is the side of the characters who are witnessing, or observing, the events between the family over those 2 days. They variably interactive with and affect every one of these listed aspects of the series. For example, they argue with each other over the events that transpire and what is going on the heads of the people during the 2 days. This would be the different logic battles, particularly between Battler and Beatrice, including Eva-Beatrice. Later on, Bern and Erika and such do more than argue, and intentionally mess around with the lives of the people during the 2 days. Doing things such as making a character that would definitely affect, influence and ultimately change what is going on in the heads of the people on the island, in those 2 days. I'm talking like it would greatly affect the first aspect I mentioned. This kind of intrusion into the side of the setting conveyed through the humans' perspectives climaxes in EP6. Erika, a completely unexpected person in regards to what the humans were going to think about at the conference, kills 6 of them when they were playfully setting up a fake murder mystery. The scary thing is her presence alone, talking about riddles and being a mystery lover, probably has a hand in affecting the atmosphere during the days and putting the family in the mood to actually enact these kind theatrics during those 2 days of their lives.

The 3rd is the aspect of the past that led up to the thoughts and feelings of the people going into the 2 days. This is the cumulative sum of all the knowledge that is shown about past events, that affect the people during the 2 days. Their burdens, past interactions, them thinking about why they did or didn't do certain things. Stuff like the things that happened between Kyrie and Rudolf and Asumu, or the battle between Eva and George in EP6 is a good example of this. An interesting idea is that most of Kinzo and his story revolves around this aspect of the series. This facet of events is affected by the 2nd aspects mostly through observation, slander or for reasoning. This was most greatly affected in EP7, with Bern changing the past through Lion, and even trying to sow together a different kind of representation of the 1st aspect's events. I thought this kind of feeling was captured in the mood, or unease, that various people have in the chapel during EP7.

The 4th aspect revolves around the future of the events. At first I was a little put off by people doubting the validity of the events in the future, but looking at it from this theory's perspective, it makes sense. Especially compared to the 3rd aspect of the series -- the past -- the future is a much more intangible thing. It's even ironic that this kind of intangible future, conveyed through Ange, is shown to be full of despair and a preoccupation for both the events and thoughts from the people on the island, and by extension the past of the people on the island (aspects 1 and 3). This aspect of the story is then most influenced by Bern's retrieval of Ange, and how that affected Ange's experiences, and through Featherine's meetings with Ange, giving her a completely new perception during her life in the future.

While writing this post, I realized the the 'mystery' of the whole series is something completely outside of these 4 fully encompassing angles of the series and setting. The mystery is something that weaves through and influences all of these different aspects. I guess it could be considered a 5th aspect. It is the reason people are observing and talking, the actuality of the events and possibilities of the human perspectives, saturated in the past of the people on the island, and what the future is greatly affected by. I would say just in the way Kinzo is firmly based in the past, Beatrice is firmly found in the mystery, being an entity highly involved with all the other parts of the series.

Spoiler for Higurashi Connection:

Last edited by Keriaku; 2010-11-26 at 04:21.
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Old 2010-11-26, 04:07   Link #19073
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That's a very interesting way of summarizing things. I have noticed it, but I haven't seen it written down like this before. That's very well done.

Spoiler for Bernkastel:
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Old 2010-11-26, 04:12   Link #19074
Keriaku
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
That's a very interesting way of summarizing things. I have noticed it, but I haven't seen it written down like this before. That's very well done.

Spoiler for Bernkastel:
Spoiler for Bernkastel and Higurashi:
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Old 2010-11-26, 04:19   Link #19075
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Originally Posted by Keriaku View Post
Spoiler for Bernkastel and Higurashi:
Well no offense, but it sounds like your adding things to her character that just doesn't belong there.
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Old 2010-11-26, 04:26   Link #19076
Keriaku
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Well no offense, but it sounds like your adding things to her character that just doesn't belong there.
I do see where you're coming from, but I think my conclusions are a logical result of thinking of Bern throughout Higurashi, without a break right through to Umineko as a continuous entity. Though it is true that I am inevitably basing my thoughts on my own perception of the situation, I'm pretty sure most of what I referred to is outright stated by her over Minagoroshi-hen, Matsuribayashi-hen and Rei.
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Old 2010-11-26, 04:59   Link #19077
Judoh
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You're talking about Rika now. You told me before that Bernkastel is an extension of her instead. However, it doesn't sound like you really beleive that.
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Old 2010-11-26, 06:52   Link #19078
CainSonozaki
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
You know what, after taking a look at that cover for EP8 again, it seems to suggest to me that Ange and Beatrice are the ones who are on the outside and everyone inside the picture is 'happy' but also... dead. Well, Lambdadelta and Bernkastel are also there, outside the picture but...

I wonder if it was Beatrice who survived and not Battler? It's possible that she left her last instructions for the servants on the morning of the 4th and then just... left the island? We have all sorts of reds about how the outside can't interfere with Rokkenjima but there isn't really anything to say that people can't leave. Especially if they take the last boat on the island, say maybe in the submarine pen?



EDIT: It could also mean that the people in the painting are fictional and so is the 'Battler' in the story. And perhaps Beatrice/Yasu left the island in search of the real Battler, who really didn't come to the island that day.
I was actually thinking the same thing about "Beatrice", or rather "Maria Ushiromiya" from ep 1 and 2. From the whole "And then...I knew" scene from ep 5 Battler mentions how sometime in the future people find out about what happened through those message bottles. Now how could Beatrice know this would happen?
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Old 2010-11-26, 09:06   Link #19079
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Just a random thought, did we ever get confirmation on when/how Kinzo's wife died?
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Old 2010-11-26, 09:12   Link #19080
Cao Ni Ma
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Originally Posted by Will Wright View Post
Just a random thought, did we ever get confirmation on when/how Kinzo's wife died?
Not really, most of the characters glance it off so it was probably natural causes. I vaguely remember them saying something about living in high stress because she thought Kinzo was cheating on her so that probably hasten her death.
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