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Old 2010-11-26, 09:19   Link #19081
Will Wright
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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
Not really, most of the characters glance it off so it was probably natural causes. I vaguely remember them saying something about living in high stress because she thought Kinzo was cheating on her so that probably hasten her death.
Thanks. I found her character to be a lot of wasted potential, but again much like Maria's father they would be more trouble than worth for the writer.

It would be a good angle though. Kinzo's wife's mental state(she married KINZO for god's sake) should make for some interesting scenes.
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Old 2010-11-26, 09:39   Link #19082
Ayu-ayu
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I know the Bernkastel =/= Rika thing is a horse more beaten than a certain pony, but the Chiru episodes have made me really question the general older assumptions about Bernkastel's origins and relationship with Higurashi.

In both, we are told that Bern was born from the sea of Kakera. The original assumption as I understand it was that the sea of Kakera refered to the iterations of realities caused by Hanyuu's resetting of Rika's timeline, and thus somehow (as the manga extrapolates) Bern was a higher existence born from the collective consciousness of the multiple iterations of Rika resetting each time.

However, as also has been pointed out, Bern herself, in a more Umineko-like manner, scoffs and denies this in one of the Higurashi TIPS, telling the player they are incorrect to assume that she is some form of Rika.

Now that we've seen more of how the sea of Kakera works in Umineko, in references made by the witches and also particularly in episode 7's revelations about Lion's particular one-in-four-quadrillion (or whatever order of magnitude it was) Kakera, it is clear that the these multiple realities extend well beyond the sphere of Higurashi's influences, and to me it seems likely that Higurashi's multiple Kakera represent a small drop in the bucket compared to the larger sea that exists beyond it. This would imply to me a change in meaning when saying that Bern was born from the sea of Kakera, as this no longer binds her origins to Higurashi alone. Moreover, Umineko implies that Higurashi was one of other prior multiple games Bern and Lambda have played together (but doesn't specify if it was the first one). We've also seen how game pieces are used by the witches in Umineko, most notably Furudo Erika.

I know others have said it, but I count myself thusly among those suspicious that Rika was simply Bern's game piece in Higurashi (parting ways at the end of Rei), matched by Takano as Lamdadelta's.

But then there's this whole AuAu matter...
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Old 2010-11-26, 09:40   Link #19083
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Originally Posted by Will Wright View Post
Thanks. I found her character to be a lot of wasted potential, but again much like Maria's father they would be more trouble than worth for the writer.
Maria's father is probably Rudolf anyway. I wouldn't be surprised, what with all the incest we've had recently.
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Old 2010-11-26, 09:47   Link #19084
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Maria's father is probably Rudolf anyway. I wouldn't be surprised, what with all the incest we've had recently.
Don't jinx it. Though it would explain why Maria is so uh, special.
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Old 2010-11-26, 10:53   Link #19085
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Well the idea that Bernkastel is the result of Rika/Higurashi is one I outright am unable to accept because it ruins all of Higurashi. Suddenly the nearly perfect ending of the game becomes voided and all of Rika and Hanyuu's efforts lead to created the, in her own words, most cruel witch in the world.

Also following that logic further, it's like, would we accept that if Ryukishi makes when they cry 5, that the most evil twisted character in it... would be Battler.
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Old 2010-11-26, 10:58   Link #19086
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Also following that logic further, it's like, would we accept that if Ryukishi makes when they cry 5, that the most evil twisted character in it... would be Battler.
I'd love to see that.
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Old 2010-11-26, 10:59   Link #19087
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Also following that logic further, it's like, would we accept that if Ryukishi makes when they cry 5, that the most evil twisted character in it... would be Battler.
That'd be so bloody wicked. I'm all for it.
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Old 2010-11-26, 11:07   Link #19088
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~.~ Well maybe I just put literal consistence as a priority over what'd be cool. Not that I don't see it being cool in a way. However a cruel, antagonistic Battler, would just be a guy who looks like Battler and shares his name to me.

Spoiler for Higurashi:
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Old 2010-11-26, 11:13   Link #19089
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I'm with Usagitenpura on this one, plus I don't believe in any real connection between Higurashi and Umineko.
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Old 2010-11-26, 11:44   Link #19090
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
One common theory is that Gohda thought: "It can't be Shannon, Shannon has huge boobs!"
Yeah, it could be seen that way too. It just felt strange when he didn't mention Shannon.

I would not mind if she didn't exist ~

I feel that Bern and Lamda are symbols in the side lines for umineko just for our own ("No Naku Koro Ni" fans) pleasure.


(Oh! The main events in Higurashi and Umineko are only 3 years apart! The 80's creep me out now)
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Old 2010-11-26, 12:47   Link #19091
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~.~ Well maybe I just put literal consistence as a priority over what'd be cool. Not that I don't see it being cool in a way. However a cruel, antagonistic Battler, would just be a guy who looks like Battler and shares his name to me.
The thing is, if Battler were to go through what Rika went through, then it wouldn't be inconsistent if, lacking a positive outcome, he'd end up like Bern. People can end up like that. Hell, even if you discard the idea of a tragic past, immortality and powers beyond what a human can do can make you different.

But, either way, even if Battler hasn't had it easy, I don't think what he's gone through can be compared what Rika went through.

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Spoiler for Higurashi:
Spoiler:
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Old 2010-11-26, 13:35   Link #19092
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I don't get why people have a problem with having Bern be a continuous entity from Higurashi. I don't think it changes what Rika obtained in anyway. While Bern is intimately connected to Rika, she is now a seperate being from her. I believe that the Rika from Matsuribayashi-hen is still living happily somewhere with all her friends, but at the same time there is a stray being that we now know as Bernkastel. From reading the various arcs of Higurashi, the characterization we have about Bern is even consitent with the Frederica Bernkastel from Higurashi. She's pessimistic and unaffected. The prologue arc, Rei, was almost completely about this seperation between Rika and Bern, with Rika making the conscious choice to let go of that side of her.

I also think it doesn't make sense to equate Battler and Rika. They went through completely different things, and Battler understanding his situation and why he was brought there is a big part of that. We had some level of control and knowledge, his mind nowhere came even close to the emotional strain Rika says she went through.
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Old 2010-11-26, 13:59   Link #19093
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As I stated before, a lot of points support the fact that Bernkastel departed from Rika's (and by extention, Frederica's) existence over time.
Minagoroshi introduction and Frederica's quotes are quite huge points that definitely explain the convergence and the divergence between the different entities.

That said, it is amusing all the hate about Bern, whereas it may be the representation of certain readers.

By the way: immortal is probably the worst curse than a sentient being can have, unless they lack of "self". So having "broken" characters like Lambda, Bern or Featherine is nothing surprising to say the least.
I've yet find a fiction that actually was convincing in term of "happy immortality", but that isn't representative of that theme and setup of course.

Anyway, I wholeheartedly agree with Keriaku: it has little to no point to compare Battler and Rika/Frederica.
In a way, it is preposterous to put people's unhappiness and misfortune on a scale, as if they can be compared like an equation of values, especially if what they went through are arguably different.
Of course, opinions and appreciations can kick in, but solely putting this appreciation as "fact" for this subject is a tad off.
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Old 2010-11-26, 14:03   Link #19094
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Well, I always thought Rika's "serious" version throughout the series was a different person sharing the same mind (hard to explain, I know x.x)

But at the end of Rei, Rika mentioned how she had to stop calling herself a witch and "Bernkastel", and that she should go back to normal. I think this means the other side seperated itself from Rika and thus became Bernkastel. Rika probably really did create a witch inside of her, like Eva did.

Its just a theory, Rika from Matsuribayashi-hen is probably perfectly normal, whilst Bernkastel wandered through thousands of universes and worlds and came across Umineko. ....?
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Old 2010-11-26, 14:08   Link #19095
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Thanks. I found her character to be a lot of wasted potential, but again much like Maria's father they would be more trouble than worth for the writer.

It would be a good angle though. Kinzo's wife's mental state(she married KINZO for god's sake) should make for some interesting scenes.
Actually, there's some weird temporal inconsistencies in this. Oliver did a little calculating once about when Kinzo's wife had to have died, and it doesn't seem to make sense. Based on certain factors I forget from his timeline it has to have been somewhat recently, yet ep7 makes it seem like it was before 1976. Basically it should be "some time in the last 10-15 years," but absolutely nobody seems to have a firm date.

There is that throwaway line about Kinzo crying at his wife's death, which seems at odds with his utter lack of interest in her conveyed in ep7... unless his wife coincidentally died around 1967 or so, when Beatrice-2 and the alleged baby supposedly died. In which case he could be crying about something else entirely.

As for Maria's father, I'm fine with "he knocked Rosa up, swindled her, and ran off." I don't think we need a whole lot more detail about him. His impact on Rosa and thus Rosa's impact on Maria is more important than who he actually is.
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I've yet find a fiction that actually was convincing in term of "happy immortality", but that isn't representative of that theme and setup of course.
Most immortals are alone. Loneliness and disconnection from humanity is the basis for an immortal's detached nature.

Thinking about that, it's very easy to see how you could have a happy immortal: An immortal companion.
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Old 2010-11-26, 14:23   Link #19096
CrystalStarlight95
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Thinking about that, it's very easy to see how you could have a happy immortal: An immortal companion.
I agree. When you're the "only" immortal around a place, it gets incredibly lonely.

Spoiler:


Don't forget boredom is the #1 enemy to immortals/witches~~
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Old 2010-11-26, 14:23   Link #19097
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Lambdadelta seems alot more chipper than Bern though, despite having probably been around alot longer.
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Old 2010-11-26, 14:27   Link #19098
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Lambdadelta seems alot more chipper than Bern though, despite having probably been around alot longer.
Well, she has a "companion" now, of a sort. She just seems to be the only one really enjoying that relationship.
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Old 2010-11-26, 14:30   Link #19099
CrystalStarlight95
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Lambdadelta seems alot more chipper than Bern though, despite having probably been around alot longer.
Well, Lambdadelta sort of pretends that cry-baby thingy. I mean, yeah, she probably is alot more older than Bern but Lambda is tons more serious when she wants to be and....Have you heard of a logic error?

Spoiler:
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Old 2010-11-26, 14:32   Link #19100
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Lambdadelta seems alot more chipper than Bern though, despite having probably been around alot longer.
The thought of trapping Bern is too enjoyable for her.
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