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Old 2010-11-26, 14:40   Link #19101
CrystalStarlight95
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Originally Posted by KazePT View Post
The thought of trapping Bern is too enjoyable for her.
Y'know, that is definately another way to put it. Bern and Lambda's relationship is a tad bit...weird.
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Old 2010-11-26, 14:52   Link #19102
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Originally Posted by CrystalStarlight95 View Post
Well, Lambdadelta sort of pretends that cry-baby thingy. I mean, yeah, she probably is alot more older than Bern but Lambda is tons more serious when she wants to be and....Have you heard of a logic error?

Spoiler:
Well Bern's thing is she was just a piece forced to fix her game masters *coughcoughauaucough* logic error
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Old 2010-11-26, 14:57   Link #19103
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
I've yet find a fiction that actually was convincing in term of "happy immortality", but that isn't representative of that theme and setup of course.
I suggest Neil Gaiman's Sandman.
And no I'm not talking about the 7 eternals who don't even consider the idea of ceasing to exist, and they physically can't (although they can die), but Dream's human friend who makes a bet with him. He claims that people die because they "want" to die, but he bets that he will never lose his will to live no matter what and therefore he won't die. Obviously this isn't so simple but Dream decides to test this man and he promises him that his sister Death will not touch him until the day he will finally surrender.
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Old 2010-11-26, 15:29   Link #19104
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Creating happy immortals is way simpler than people give it credit for. The barrier people make for themselves is insisting that an immortal being would need to have the psychology of an adolescent human being.

Also this: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...reverIsAwesome

As for the issue of Bernkastel and Rika, I thought it was pretty clear cut that Bernkastel is an offshoot of Rika's negative futures. This doesn't cheapen Higurashi's ending in any way, as Rei drives home the point that we are not gods who are supposed to make everything perfect in all ways. We've gotta give and take and be grateful for what we did get. I imagine this lesson will be extended to Ange too.
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Old 2010-11-26, 15:38   Link #19105
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To be really fair, there has never been an immortal human, and as thus what we claims about immortality is overly speculative: there is no real ways to know.

It is entirely fair to compare Battler and Rika. Yeah their stories are heavily different but that's entirely irrelevant when it comes to accepting that a character's outcome is the exact opposite of what the serie in which they stared led you to believe they reached.

About comparing their "fates", those who claims Bern had it worst seems to forget that Bern herself told Battler that even from her POV his fate was "brutal".

In any case, I didn't mean to do anything but voice my opinion: I do not accept Bernkastel from Umineko to have any relation to Higurashi's Rika. I cannot prove they don't have any and I am uninterested in doing so, people can believe what they want. More importantly, that she is related or not has yet to have a real influence on the main plot of Umineko, as thus it's a mere detail of personal opinion.

This is not the first serie that reuses cameo characters that spawns an endless debate about the possible relation or lack of to the original material, and these usually never reach anything conclusive (including when the author himself confirms or denies it).

Spoiler for Higurashi:
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Old 2010-11-26, 15:43   Link #19106
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Personally I think that Featherinne is enough of a proof that the reoccurring names from Higurashi to Umineko are merely cameos a la Cid of Final Fantasy.
Bernkastel's background just doesn't fit with Frederika Bernkastel's background, it doesn't make any sense.
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Old 2010-11-26, 16:04   Link #19107
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
To be really fair, there has never been an immortal human, and as thus what we claims about immortality is overly speculative: there is no real ways to know.
Then all our theories about Umineko in general are all overly speculative, since to my knowledge, I have never heard about a real family going to a remote island and most of them being killed. We have no basis of any kind of what could have happened in a fictional mystery's answer until we are given it. What's the point of guessing at anything at all?

There is no real way of knowing anything with absolute certainty in a human realm, because speculating is all we have.
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Old 2010-11-26, 16:10   Link #19108
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Well.. our theories about umineko are speculative.

And there is a big difference between what you can physically test through scientific methods and what you can only speculate about.

The effect of immortality on a human brain is not something we can test. But the effect of drugs on the same brain, hell yeah, we can test it and we can have data on it which are by no mean "merely speculative".
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Old 2010-11-26, 16:33   Link #19109
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Well.. our theories about umineko are speculative.

And there is a big difference between what you can physically test through scientific methods and what you can only speculate about.

The effect of immortality on a human brain is not something we can test. But the effect of drugs on the same brain, hell yeah, we can test it and we can have data on it which are by no mean "merely speculative".
Well testing someone's psychological state is more of an art than a science you know. It wouldn't be that different for someone who was 40 than with someone whose been living for 500-1000 years. Though it would probably be even more difficult because of the age difference.

And Drug Trials don't usually test the effects of the drug on the physical brain. It's possible, but if they did that with every drug it would be too expensive to test prescription drugs. They test what effects they can observe in the volunteers. Even then after it's on the market there's probably a lot of things they didn't find, and 7 years later it might be deemed to dangerous for patients. So in a different way that's really more of an art than a science too.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-11-26 at 17:00.
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Old 2010-11-26, 17:09   Link #19110
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Bah I guess I didn't mean to spark that conversation.
Take it as immortality can be depicted in any ways the author want in any given fiction. As long as the character's psychology is related to us in a way that "seems" credible we can chose to "buy" that character's psychology as relatively realistic or not.

However I have to say, in a world where a thousand years is actually six years I'm really not certain we're dealing with any immortals to begin with.

For the rest well Jan already said pretty much what I think.
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Old 2010-11-26, 17:36   Link #19111
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Quote:
In any case, I didn't mean to do anything but voice my opinion: I do not accept Bernkastel from Umineko to have any relation to Higurashi's Rika. I cannot prove they don't have any and I am uninterested in doing so, people can believe what they want. More importantly, that she is related or not has yet to have a real influence on the main plot of Umineko, as thus it's a mere detail of personal opinion.
While I believe in the connection, I do have to concur; while Bernkastel creates a thematic continuity, it doesn't really matter to Umineko in the slightest. It's main purpose, if any, is just to screw with our emotions and presumptions so that we're shocked by Bernkastel's malevolence.

Quote:
I personally also believe that if Rika and Hanyuu had just accepted their fate they wouldn't have suffered so much. Inherently I see Satoko as much more of a victim, but again that's opinions.
While objectively speaking, this is true, it leads to the problem of allowing genocide to go through unpunished when they have the ability to prevent it. Not cool.

Quote:
Bernkastel's background just doesn't fit with Frederika Bernkastel's background, it doesn't make any sense.
Mind explaining why? This point has never been explained to my satisfaction.

Quote:
However I have to say, in a world where a thousand years is actually six years I'm really not certain we're dealing with any immortals to begin with.
For Beatrice, anyway. Lambdadelta and Bernkastel come from outside of Beatrice's magical compendium, and we can't apply the same rules; it's the same mistake as trying to figure out what the two symbolize on the gameboard.
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Old 2010-11-26, 17:43   Link #19112
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Well testing someone's psychological state is more of an art than a science you know.
What I actually know is this is simply not true. I am a psychology major, and I can tell you that psychological tests are based on tons of statistical data. While this system doesn't reach the same level of reliability of physical observation, statistical methods are extremely solid and so far have proven to be extremely reliable in their predictions when used correctly.
You have no idea about how much statistic is used in experimental psychology, in fact psychology is one of the scientific fields that makes most use of it.

Considering psychological testing an "art" is demeaning both for psychology and for art. There is nothing artistic in a huge mass of computational data.


Take the Rorschach test for example, you think the specific stuff you see in the blotches actually matters? Everything is reduced in codes and numbers in the end.
Codes and numbers are then analyzed and compared to the vast statistical data obtained through years of testing.

And this is just one test, usually several different tests are used in order to obtain a reliable profile.

Sorry about this rant, but it kinda pisses me off how fiction completely warped the truth behind psychology. I had to clarify this.


As for drugs, I was actually thinking about the kind of drugs that is meant to have an effect on the brain, like SSRI, Diazepam, Clozapin and the likes. In these cases we have actual data on the biological changes on the brain cells at a molecular level.
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Old 2010-11-26, 17:51   Link #19113
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I think you should all, with due respect, go to sleep...

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Old 2010-11-26, 18:25   Link #19114
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Just so you know Jan. I don't actually beleive that. I just wanted to see what you would have to say about psychology since you brought it up.
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Old 2010-11-26, 18:31   Link #19115
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
I've yet find a fiction that actually was convincing in term of "happy immortality", but that isn't representative of that theme and setup of course.
Doctor Who. Sort of. The Doctor surely has his problems with his near(maybe complete due to infinite regenerations) immortality, but "The Lonely God" he might be, he is still happy because he has also immortal companions. Jack, and more importantly The Master.

The Doctor and The Master are a lot like Beatrice and Battler, if both were immortal. Or Bern and the human side.

One likes to torture the other to basically pass time and to have fun. To better explain it, this scene from season 5 does a great job at hilariously explaining The Master's feelings about the doctor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptRxrH1rVK8

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I suggest Neil Gaiman's Sandman.
And no I'm not talking about the 7 eternals who don't even consider the idea of ceasing to exist, and they physically can't (although they can die), but Dream's human friend who makes a bet with him. He claims that people die because they "want" to die, but he bets that he will never lose his will to live no matter what and therefore he won't die. Obviously this isn't so simple but Dream decides to test this man and he promises him that his sister Death will not touch him until the day he will finally surrender.
Ahhh, gotta love Sandman.

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Well testing someone's psychological state is more of an art than a science you know.
Hell no, I am a psych ma- alright Jan-Poo saved me a near identical rant.
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Old 2010-11-26, 19:54   Link #19116
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To talk about something else, I've been thinking about something for a while, but it is based on a lot of assumptions and interpretations. I am aware the whole thing falls apart if I am wrong on any of them.

The "truth" of Rokkenjima Prime might not even matter. If we accept that Yasu did write these stories but didn't actually plan to murder anyone (possibly create a fake murder scenario in order to chose her successor instead) and that everyone else, even tho not being saints, aren't vile enough to even consider murdering everyone for their personal gain, and that whatever really happened must have been a serie of misunderstanding and accidents (or possibly a single one), then the specifics on how that tragedy occured doesn't really matter. Especially if there is no objective ways to prove any of them. What does is that we believe in them enough, that none of them are truly bad people.

Edit: As for a good ending, if Battler somehow stays alive (independently of his location at the times of the events) and gets to make Ange and Eva make up, I'd be mostly satisfied.
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Old 2010-11-26, 20:02   Link #19117
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I've actually heard that the perception of time speeds up as a person ages, as information processing becomes more and more unnecessary to the mind and things appear to "speed up." That's why kids can make an afternoon seem like forever but old people can wake up at 6am and still feel like their day is too short.

Of course whether an immortal body and mind even ages is a conceit of a particular fiction, and while some immortals have an actual physical existence (The Doctor), others have a transcendent physical body (Dr. Manhattan, though he seemed pretty bored with things), or none at all (one imagines Bernkastel and Battler fall into this category, as being physically harmed in the meta-world seems essentially meaningless).

So my guess is with Bernkastel, her attitude is shaped by her initial experiences (whether that's Higurashi, something similar to it but not it, or something utterly unrelated) and then the rest is just sort of, as she says... dealing with boredom.

If we look at Battler the same way, he clearly has much better support than Bern did, and probably got more reward for his suffering than she did (I get the sense Bern is a little bitter that all she really got is escape, and that turned out to be illusory as she carries the experience with her).
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Old 2010-11-26, 20:35   Link #19118
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Dr. Manhattan, though he seemed pretty bored with things
This is because time is meaningless to him, though.
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Old 2010-11-27, 01:16   Link #19119
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I never really understood how the Witch of Miracles Bernkastel and Frederika Bernkastel are different. Truth is the only When They Cry games I have played was EP5 and 6 of Umineko, so I haven't gotten any clues to Frederika's background.

First of all, they both have the same (last) name. Is Ryukishi07 just screwing with our minds then, or is there a connection? Frederika's only featured in Higurashi as an author of poems placed around the different games and mangas. And Bernkastel is simply just a character from Umineko.

Personally, I think there's no connection, and Ryukishi07 only really loves the character design of Rika (Hence we now have Bernkastel, Erika, and even Featherinne looks very similar, if you look closely)

And does even discussing the connections make a difference? If we put the pieces together, it won't help the Umineko truth, I guess xD.

Spoiler for Umineko Off-Topic Ep6 Question:
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Old 2010-11-27, 01:20   Link #19120
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Originally Posted by CrystalStarlight95 View Post
First of all, they both have the same (last) name. Is Ryukishi07 just screwing with our minds then, or is there a connection? Frederika's only featured in Higurashi as an author of poems placed around the different games and mangas. And Bernkastel is simply just a character from Umineko.

Personally, I think there's no connection, and Ryukishi07 only really loves the character design of Rika (Hence we now have Bernkastel, Erika, and even Featherinne looks very similar, if you look closely)

And does even discussing the connections make a difference? If we put the pieces together, it won't help the Umineko truth, I guess xD.
My personal line of thought is that Bernkastel is literally a "character" and her presence is meant to represent the sort of things her character does and says and stands for. Whether she is the Frederica Bernkastel of Higurashi doesn't really matter.
Quote:
Spoiler for Umineko Off-Topic Ep6 Question:
Cups inside other cups. That's about as much as we know.
Spoiler for One of the more recent takes...:
Or that's one theory, anyway.
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