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Old 2010-11-27, 01:25   Link #19121
AuraTwilight
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I don't think Featherine resembles Rika in any meaningful way. The only way they look similar is in the way All Anime Characters Ever look similar.

As for the connection between Frederica and the Witch of Miracles...without having played Higurashi, I'm not sure how I can really explain things to you as you have no real frame of reference.

As for how Beatrice saved Battler from the Logic Error, I think it was pretty simple. We have a few tricks we can use here, at the top of my head. 1) Kanon died inside the closet (or switched names, or personalities, whatever), therefore, Kanon does not "exist" anywhere inside the room. 2) One truth (Kanon entered the room) refers to the gameboard, but Beatrice fucked with Erika's head by invoking a truth from Rokkenjima Prime (Kanon does not exist in this room). 3) There was never such a person as Kanon to begin with.
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Old 2010-11-27, 01:46   Link #19122
CrystalStarlight95
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
I don't think Featherine resembles Rika in any meaningful way. The only way they look similar is in the way All Anime Characters Ever look similar.
Yeah, when I said Featherine and Bern looked similar, I wasn't saying it in a meaningful way. Ryukishi07 just likes the design, I guess xD.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
As for the connection between Frederica and the Witch of Miracles...without having played Higurashi, I'm not sure how I can really explain things to you as you have no real frame of reference.
Yes, I've seen all the When They Cry animes, but I haven't played the Higurashi games, unfortunately. I think since I watched the animes I've spoiled the fun I would've had if I played the games by now, since I already know what happens..

As for your logic error suggestions, I agree with #1, don't totally comprehend #2 (because I'm an idiot.) but may have some objections to #3.

#1 was what I already suspected because Kanon could've simply just died, or committed suicide, thus he's "not in the closet"(because he's dead.). Erika should've thought of this, and since it wasn't confirmed with the red that Kanon ever died at all (At least, I hope not...) Then this truth can exist.

#2 Is a tad bit confusing for me. Kanon did go into the room which was confirmed in red. (WHY couldn't he have just CLIMBED up the chimney and get out through there? I would've tried that xD)

#3 I'm not sure about. It was confirmed Erika, Battler and Kanon were in the rooms around the certain times. Somebody else could've snuck in under the name Kanon, but who could've possibly done so?
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Old 2010-11-27, 01:58   Link #19123
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Originally Posted by CrystalStarlight95 View Post
Yes, I've seen all the When They Cry animes, but I haven't played the Higurashi games, unfortunately. I think since I watched the animes I've spoiled the fun I would've had if I played the games by now, since I already know what happens..
If the only exposure you've had to Episodes 1 - 4 of Umineko is the anime, that would explain why you don't see the connection to Higurashi. They cut out the bit from Episode 2's ???? that directly references it. Without that, you're right, it's pretty much just a recycled name and character design.
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Old 2010-11-27, 02:37   Link #19124
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Originally Posted by CrystalStarlight95 View Post
Yeah, when I said Featherine and Bern looked similar, I wasn't saying it in a meaningful way. Ryukishi07 just likes the design, I guess xD.



Yes, I've seen all the When They Cry animes, but I haven't played the Higurashi games, unfortunately. I think since I watched the animes I've spoiled the fun I would've had if I played the games by now, since I already know what happens..

As for your logic error suggestions, I agree with #1, don't totally comprehend #2 (because I'm an idiot.) but may have some objections to #3.

#1 was what I already suspected because Kanon could've simply just died, or committed suicide, thus he's "not in the closet"(because he's dead.). Erika should've thought of this, and since it wasn't confirmed with the red that Kanon ever died at all (At least, I hope not...) Then this truth can exist.

#2 Is a tad bit confusing for me. Kanon did go into the room which was confirmed in red. (WHY couldn't he have just CLIMBED up the chimney and get out through there? I would've tried that xD)

#3 I'm not sure about. It was confirmed Erika, Battler and Kanon were in the rooms around the certain times. Somebody else could've snuck in under the name Kanon, but who could've possibly done so?
The idea is what we commonly call author theory, which is accepted by most people by now. To resume it, every arc we've seen is only a serie of written tales (and not the truth, nor a serie of alternate worlds like in Higurashi). The idea that Kanon never existed to begin with refers to the "real" unique reality of Rokkenjima which we call "Rokkenjima Prime" (idea 3). The other one (idea 2) refers to Beatrice/Battler being theorically able to arbitrarily say some reds that refers only to the specific tale we are shown while some others would apply to Rokkenjima Prime alone. I personally do not like that theory (as it's a pretty cheap move on Beato's part if that' true).

Now to fully explain the first idea, the assumption we have (arguably a fact by now actually) is that Kanon is not really "Kanon" but if you want a "role" that person is playing (think of Maria with Sakutaro). Uppon giving up playing that role "Kanon would die". This also can fit with the third idea as it'd be, in this case, something like saying "Lucifer entered the room" (because Beato brought the stake in with her) but "Lucifer doesn't really exists".

Last edited by UsagiTenpura; 2010-11-27 at 03:18.
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Old 2010-11-27, 09:55   Link #19125
Ayu-ayu
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Hm, its interesting to see so many different views of Bernkastel. I don't have any problem reconciling the two series, going from the Rika as "game piece" angle. I have a harder time trying to see how the two could be totally unconnected given the number of allusions made by both Bern and LD in Umineko.

The way I see it, is it comes back to the issue of the frog in the well, as Frederica Bernkastel puts it in Higurashi. In Higurashi, we never really see things from the level of the Game Masters, in the meta-world ("outside the well"). The closest we ever get is a observations by Frederica interacting with Rika (and the reader) in the sea of Kakera as it is shown in Higurashi, but even then, Frederica appears to be an unknowable entity at a higher level looking down at the puzzle presented through the various dead-end Kakera. The reader perspective never extends beyond the Kakera themselves to see what greater "forces" might be at work, or things fully from Frederica's perspective. We never fully leave the game board and are thus stuck with the view from within the well.

Umineko gives us a broader view. We see how the game is played, how pieces are manipulated from outside the game board by witches. Excepting when the rules are bent (cough, Erika, cough), pieces in the game world are generally unaware of the forces that are at work, or if they are, are unable to communicate this with other pieces (humans). In Umineko, we get allusions to Bern being previously trapped in an inescapable "maze" which turned into an "endurance contest" between her and LD. If we infer this to refer to Higurashi as a game board, the allusion works when we assign piece-roles of Rika to Bern and Takano to LD.

And in Higurashi, when the game is "won", we later see Frederica return to Takano's childhood to reverse even her fate, completely changing all conditions of the game board again. This strikes me as a checkmate of sorts, perhaps the final move to remove LD's piece from "play".

That said, I can almost accept the idea that Umineko and Higurashi are just re-casting "actors" in the story, much like Cid in Final Fantasy as mentioned, or like Mai-Hime vs. Mai-Otome, etc. But I just feel that the references made thus far are meant as more than just a kind of service for fans. Perhaps Ep. 8 will clear some of these questions up (not holding my breath! )

Great to see Hob from Sandman brought up in a discussion of immortality. I'm definitely one of those folks who'd like to be in his camp. As for LD's Logic Error experience from ep.6, I think Schroedinger really captured it well (http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs71/f/20...er-d2z8c3i.jpg ).
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Old 2010-11-27, 12:43   Link #19126
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Originally Posted by Ayu-ayu View Post
Hm, its interesting to see so many different views of Bernkastel. I don't have any problem reconciling the two series, going from the Rika as "game piece" angle. I have a harder time trying to see how the two could be totally unconnected given the number of allusions made by both Bern and LD in Umineko.

The way I see it, is it comes back to the issue of the frog in the well, as Frederica Bernkastel puts it in Higurashi. In Higurashi, we never really see things from the level of the Game Masters, in the meta-world ("outside the well"). The closest we ever get is a observations by Frederica interacting with Rika (and the reader) in the sea of Kakera as it is shown in Higurashi, but even then, Frederica appears to be an unknowable entity at a higher level looking down at the puzzle presented through the various dead-end Kakera. The reader perspective never extends beyond the Kakera themselves to see what greater "forces" might be at work, or things fully from Frederica's perspective. We never fully leave the game board and are thus stuck with the view from within the well.

Umineko gives us a broader view. We see how the game is played, how pieces are manipulated from outside the game board by witches. Excepting when the rules are bent (cough, Erika, cough), pieces in the game world are generally unaware of the forces that are at work, or if they are, are unable to communicate this with other pieces (humans). In Umineko, we get allusions to Bern being previously trapped in an inescapable "maze" which turned into an "endurance contest" between her and LD. If we infer this to refer to Higurashi as a game board, the allusion works when we assign piece-roles of Rika to Bern and Takano to LD.

And in Higurashi, when the game is "won", we later see Frederica return to Takano's childhood to reverse even her fate, completely changing all conditions of the game board again. This strikes me as a checkmate of sorts, perhaps the final move to remove LD's piece from "play".
I really like this explanation of the possible connection between Higurashi and Umineko, using the new terminology from Umineko. One of the only reasons I could see why people wouldn't like it is if they think Higurashi is cheapened by making it into a 'game'. But I think this is a false idea, just because there might have been more going on in a higher level (as we're used to in Umineko), it doesn't change the fears, happiness, emotions that Rika or Keiichi or Satoko went through during the repeating days.

I think this idea carries over to Umineko. Just because there are people messing around in the higher world, doesn't change that the people on the island had the emotions and feelings they did during the weekend, even if the presentation of these events are altered (usually giving a clearer view of what the people were probably feeling anyways). I think if there are people that disregard the human emotions of the people on the island, it's because they've gotten too accustomed to the view point of the game masters and witches, as Bern, Lamba, and early Beatrice have.
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Old 2010-11-27, 23:16   Link #19127
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So I was reminded of 07151129 and started to see it as a biblical passage, that is the 7th book, 15th chapter, verses 11-29. Suprisingly enough it deals with resurrection specifically about the Christ
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Old 2010-11-27, 23:20   Link #19128
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That's super awesome, Cao.

Also, I agree with Ayu and Keriaku.
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Old 2010-11-28, 01:40   Link #19129
Ayu-ayu
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Originally Posted by Keriaku View Post
I really like this explanation of the possible connection between Higurashi and Umineko, using the new terminology from Umineko. One of the only reasons I could see why people wouldn't like it is if they think Higurashi is cheapened by making it into a 'game'. But I think this is a false idea, just because there might have been more going on in a higher level (as we're used to in Umineko), it doesn't change the fears, happiness, emotions that Rika or Keiichi or Satoko went through during the repeating days.

I think this idea carries over to Umineko. Just because there are people messing around in the higher world, doesn't change that the people on the island had the emotions and feelings they did during the weekend, even if the presentation of these events are altered (usually giving a clearer view of what the people were probably feeling anyways). I think if there are people that disregard the human emotions of the people on the island, it's because they've gotten too accustomed to the view point of the game masters and witches, as Bern, Lamba, and early Beatrice have.
Good point. It is too easy to get caught in their pace as the "pieces" get moved around each time. Are we theatergoers who are enjoying the show and making our theories any better than those doing the manipulating as we enjoy the entertainment set before us...? (well, I'd argue yes, since we are at least trying to solve the puzzle, not conflate it )

The "Frog theory", as I'll call it, also reinforces that Rika is not really a "proto-Bernkastel", even though the two worlds are viewed as part of the same metaverse. I don't have a problem with the idea of Bern becoming corrupted over time, but this does change some implications so that Rika is further absolved from any blame for Bern's actions.
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Old 2010-11-28, 05:04   Link #19130
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So I was reminded of 07151129 and started to see it as a biblical passage, that is the 7th book, 15th chapter, verses 11-29. Suprisingly enough it deals with resurrection specifically about the Christ
Am I doing something wrong here? The seventh book is Judges, and 15 11 onwards talks about Samson defeating the Philistines. (And it doesn't even go up to verse 29, it cuts off and begins at 16 1 before that point).
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Old 2010-11-28, 05:15   Link #19131
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Am I doing something wrong here? The seventh book is Judges, and 15 11 onwards talks about Samson defeating the Philistines. (And it doesn't even go up to verse 29, it cuts off and begins at 16 1 before that point).
Old Testament, which doesn't feature Christ, so I'm assuming Cao meant the New Testament. That would be Corinthians, which matches. The 29th verse of chapter 15 is particularly significant to the Mormon religion as it is used to justify belief in posthumous baptism.
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Old 2010-11-28, 07:43   Link #19132
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Im going to elaborate more on this theory with facts and symbolisms. Yes its the new testament.

Corinthians 1 and 2 are actually letters written by one of the apostles directed at a group of people. Corinthians 15 verses 1-11 re-affirm the belief that Jesus known as the Christ resurrected and many witnesses saw it, although some of them are now dead. Corinthians 15 verses 12-58 speak of the resurrection of the dead. It affirms that if the Christ came back then the dead will as well. Verses 20-28 speaks of how Christ will vanquish all enemies and even the last enemy Death will fall to him.

As the poster above me said, verse 28 is use as justification for the baptism of the dead. This is an old practice where one is baptize in proxy of a deceased person. That is someone takes the sins of the dead and is cleansed from them trough baptism.

Corinthians also has a notable saying, 13th chapter second verse.
"If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing"

Haha another quote from Corinthians 15
"Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.”

Last edited by Cao Ni Ma; 2010-11-28 at 08:51.
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Old 2010-11-28, 08:55   Link #19133
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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
Im going to elaborate more on this theory with facts and symbolisms. Yes its the new testament.

Corinthians 1 and 2 are actually letters written by one of the apostles directed at a group of people. Corinthians 15 verses 1-11 re-affirm the belief that Jesus known as the Christ resurrected and many witnesses saw it, although some of them are now dead. Corinthians 15 verses 12-58 speak of the resurrection of the dead. It affirms that if the Christ came back then the dead will as well. Verses 20-28 speaks of how Christ will vanquish all enemies and even the last enemy Death will fall to him.

As the poster above me said, verse 28 is use as justification for the baptism of the dead. This is an old practice where one is baptize in proxy of a deceased person. That is someone takes the sins of the dead and is cleansed from them trough baptism.
Good thing you noticed that, had me dust off the Bible for once. It does seem to have some relevance to Umineko (though you can connect almost anything if you try enough). There is the message bottles and Beatrice's resurrection etc.

The part about taking the sins of the dead and purifying near the end had me thinking of the quite plausible theory of Beatrice taking the blame of the crime to herself.
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Corinthians also has a notable saying, 13th chapter second verse.
"If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing"
Without love it cannot be seen.
Some lines Zepar and Furfur use about love seem to be from that chapter as well.
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Old 2010-11-28, 11:34   Link #19134
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Hey random question....I keep hearing the name Yasu around here. Is he/she a new character in EP7 or 8 because I haven't seen any pictures or anything...

Is he/she some person who narrates EP7 because I thought it was that girl with the white-ish/green dress's job. ._.

(OFF SUBJECT QUESTION FTW!)
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Old 2010-11-28, 11:44   Link #19135
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Yasu is sort of a new character introduced in EP7

We never see her/his actual face, we don't even know her/his sex.

We know however that Yasu is "the child from 19 years before", born from Kinzo and Beatrice2, and the real personality behind Beatrice3. It is also hinted that Shannon and Kanon are also personalities that stem from Yasu.
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Old 2010-11-28, 13:53   Link #19136
CrystalStarlight95
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:O Ah, thanks. I got confuzzled for a second XD

And uh, what's Clair Vaux Bernandes' role then? She still narrates or something? ._.
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Old 2010-11-28, 14:48   Link #19137
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Clair is Beatrice's second incarnation in Yasu's world (the character later known as Gaap is the first), in order to tell her apart from her later self (the black dressed Beatrice that we know) she was renamed as Clair Vaux Bernardus. However she is substantially Yasu/Beatrice.

In fact she is called Beatrice during the flashbacks, the name Clair is only used in the meta theater.
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Old 2010-11-28, 15:00   Link #19138
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Goodness gracious...Beatrice has so many forms, doesn't she? xD
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Old 2010-11-28, 19:58   Link #19139
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I'm not sure if this was mentioned before, but there's some clear evidence that Amakusa was the Hibari 13 member who was sent to kill Satoko in Higurashi during Matsuribayashi-hen.
Spoiler for scan from Matsuribayashi-hen:
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Old 2010-11-28, 20:03   Link #19140
Cao Ni Ma
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I'm not sure if this was mentioned before, but there's some clear evidence that Amakusa was the Hibari 13 member who was sent to kill Satoko in Higurashi during Matsuribayashi-hen.
Spoiler for scan from Matsuribayashi-hen:
Its uncanny but wouldn't that be like 16 years before the events with Ange? Unless the dude had like a teen age child I just dont see it happening. Probably more RK07 trying to throw us if with info not pertaining to the Umineko mystery.
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