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Old 2010-11-29, 13:57   Link #19201
Ayu-ayu
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That's pretty interesting. I had not considered a contest between Featherine and Lambdadelta before either. It certainly seems a reasonable possibility. Thematically it feels good--we have the face-off between Hanyuu and Takano near the end at the shrine, and Higurashi is largely a battle between the two on one level--Takano implementing Lamdadelta's certain fate, Hanyuu resetting the timeline to keep trying for a chance for Rika to come through with her miracle.

The maltheist versus the not-all-powerful deity, and the miko that scores the goal.
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Old 2010-11-29, 14:10   Link #19202
Used Can
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
I never heard that being a nickname or a diminutive, but I see really no relevancy to umineko at all... care to explain?
Dumping information like that is anything but useful.
I just found that information on various websites; so, I'm sure it applies, even if it's an old nickname no longer used in France, or French speaking countries.

As for its relevance, it's as Cao Ni Ma basically put it. I just just left it there if anyone may see any use for it with the Manon theory.
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Old 2010-11-29, 14:25   Link #19203
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I have to agree with Klash here.
We are both fluent in french and never heard of Manon being a nickname.
I mean it's a proper name in itself.
It might be true that it (somehow) began as a nickname for Marie but I seriously would doubt Ryukishi to use knowledge that is beyond obscure for even the speakers of the said language.

The french of the fighting game seems to be like the result of a Babel Fish translation... It's only evidence that Ryukishi's team has no one knowledgeable in french in it (and that they have no interest in being accurate about it either... in other words French being used is just fashion for the game).

On a side, I can hardly believe the convo about Higurashi/Umineko relations is still up... I seriously doubt it will lead anywhere.
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Old 2010-11-29, 14:30   Link #19204
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It literally takes a google search to answer just about any name related questions and nearly all of them state the same thing 'Diminutive of Marie' the same site showed me similar responses like Canon/Kanon which is also french for "Official of the Church" and Shannon hebrew for "God is gracious"

This could very well be just a giant coincidence and fate rolling perfect 20s constantly.
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Old 2010-11-29, 14:39   Link #19205
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Well yeah a small google search in english does provide that, however an etymologic research of the name says that "Manon" is the diminutive of "Marie-Anne" as is "Marion".

That it's hebrew roots "Myriam" and "Hannah" means respectively "The Seer" and "The Grace".

"A quick google search" is something with a validity you might want to reconsider.
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Old 2010-11-29, 14:43   Link #19206
Cao Ni Ma
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E- Forget this, people can research for themself

And yes- it is an actual name and not a nickname, the definition I've seen everywhere though still states the same "Diminutive of Marie"
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Old 2010-11-29, 14:54   Link #19207
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I still don't understand how those French nicknames have to do with the mystery... o_o
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Old 2010-11-29, 14:59   Link #19208
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Originally Posted by CrystalStarlight95 View Post
I still don't understand how those French nicknames have to do with the mystery... o_o
This game has a lot of power in words and names, specially if they are in red.
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Old 2010-11-29, 15:34   Link #19209
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I personally like the idea that Bernkastel is the proven connection between Higurashi and Umineko. Reread her backstory, as told by Lambda, in EP 6 and it makes a whole lot of sense.

Spoiler for Higurashi Rei spoilers:


As a side note I find Bernkastel's past and possible motivations for why she goes out of her way to be incredibly cruel to be far more interesting than Yasu and her "lets blow up an island with 900 tons of dynamite because some boy forgot a promise about a pony".
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Old 2010-11-29, 16:09   Link #19210
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Err... why would they need to be the same kakera to have a connection?
I seriously see no reason for this to happen: we know by fact that Higurashi is considered as a fiction in umineko universe, but that doesn't mean it didn't exist as distant fragments in the same "When they cry" universe.
The term "multiverse" would be more appropriate in this case. At any rate if you think you can consider the two stories set in the same "universe" even if the settings are different what exactly does that mean?
By that logic you could even claim that Neon Genesis Evangelion and Haruhi Suzumiya are set in the same "universe" just because they are both set on planet earth.


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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
They are counterpart, it doesn't mean the piece has to be a perfect replica of the one "controlling it". For instance, I can't call the "Frederica Bernkastel" in the kakera world to be the exact replica of the Frederica/Rika stuck in the loop, trying endlessly to get out of there.
The connection is shown as a "base model", there is no implication or obligation for both to be the same, as shown with Bern and Lambda.
Again, by that logic you could say that All the various "final fantasy" are set in the same "universe" because there are a lot of reoccurring elements.
A counterpart doesn't mean at all that the "universe" is the same. There is a Cid counterpart in every single final fantasy, and yet they are not all set in the same universe.


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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
actually, Bern's backstory is the backbone element that allows such connection, and like what people aready said, I see no reason for this connection to cheapen Higurashi's plot at all.

If anything else, it gives even more information regarding how things were stuck in loops.

Eitherway, both franchise have a blatant connection that can be interpreted differently. But that connection has little to no impact to the actual quality, meaning and execution of their respective plot.
Otherwise, it implies that people who didn't read Higurashi have a stark different experience than those who did, which is nonsensical.
I don't understand what you mean about cheapening the Higurashi's plot. Anyway, why everyone thinks that the backstories are the same? They are not. They have a few points in common and then they have a few points that do not match at all.

Umineko's Bern was a Game Master's piece
Nowhere in Higurashi was said that Bern was a Game Master's piece. Actually as far as I know there are no Game Masters in Higurashi.

Umineko's Bern was trapped inside a logic error, a world devoid of any sense.
Higurashi's Bern was trapped in endless cycle, forced to repeat the same timespan over and over again. This was neither a logic error nor a nonsensical world.

Umineko's Bern hates and fears Featherinne
Higurashi's Bern doesn't hate nor fears Hanyuu

Umineko's Bern is strongly hinted to have been a cat in her original form.
Higurashi's Bern was born from Rika which is by no mean a cat. Higurashi's Bern completely lacks all the feline features of her Umineko counterpart.


Sure there are many things that they have in common, but the few existing differences make it clear that they are absolutely not the same being. Umineko's Bern and Higurashi's Bern are as similar as Hanyuu and Featherinne.
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Old 2010-11-29, 16:27   Link #19211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
The term "multiverse" would be more appropriate in this case. At any rate if you think you can consider the two stories set in the same "universe" even if the settings are different what exactly does that mean?
By that logic you could even claim that Neon Genesis Evangelion and Haruhi Suzumiya are set in the same "universe" just because they are both set on planet earth.
You are using some fallacy explaining a logic that I arguably didn't state as such.
You exactly know what I meant there: that both universes are connected by certain characters, that's all it is.
Quote:
Again, by that logic you could say that All the various "final fantasy" are set in the same "universe" because there are a lot of reoccurring elements.
A counterpart doesn't mean at all that the "universe" is the same. There is a Cid counterpart in every single final fantasy, and yet they are not all set in the same universe.
The recurring elements used in FF are arguably different: we have the same names used for recurring elements that are used differently, there are rare instance you have points that are actually connecting the FF together, just a legacy of certain things you see here and there.

The connection between Higurashi and Umineko isn't akin to a prequel/sequel either, but the setup regarding the common points are by no means a simple "fanservice" considering how it fits.
Quote:
I don't understand what you mean about cheapening the Higurashi's plot. Anyway, why everyone thinks that the backstories are the same? They are not. They have a few point in common and then they have a few points that do not match at all.
You were actually the one who stated the following quote:
"Lastly Bern's background story doesn't match at all. Unless you think that Higurashi sucked that much that you could compare it with some rubbish created by a bunch of monkeys pressing typewriters' buttons randomly."

Cheapens might have been the incorrect term, but you definitely implied it would have been totally bad/random for it to be connected with Bern's background.

Quote:
Umineko's Bern was a Game Master's piece
Nowhere in Higurashi was said that Bern was a Game Master's piece. Actually as far as I know there are no Game Masters in Higurashi.
Nowhere in Higurashi was said that it was game with beings in a higher realm. Does that mean it is indeed the case? Do we have an omnipotent view of the kakera world, or a tangible proof that denies that?
For all intent and purpose, no one has a clear idea what is that "sea of fragments" back in Higurashi.
Quote:
Umineko's Bern was trapped inside a logic error, a world devoid of any sense.
Higurashi's Bern was trapped in endless cycle, forced to repeat the same timespan over and over again. This was neither a logic error nor a nonsensical world.
A logic error doesn't mean it is a world devoid of any sense. Actually, the logic error implies that the said world or context is basically overwritten with a state that does not make sense.
From there, I have my own interpretation which may be flawed:
I see the logic error the situation where Rika, or rather Frederica is trying to fight against fate, while she is supposed to be dead. To me, Furude Rika is "officially dead" but something that just goes against the setting simply made things loop over and over, error that was created by Hanyuu, in her desire to save Rika (and deep down, saving her only companion in her solitary existence as a goddess).
However, it is an endless dead end similar to what Battler had to go through: she is supposed to die, period. From there, as long the events are the same, there is no way to defeat that logic, thus "Furude Rika dies on June 1983, if else July 1983 at the latest"?

I cannot consider it as a logic error to its truest sense, but Rika's situation was definitely similar to Battler's.
Quote:
Umineko's Bern hates and fears Featherinne
Higurashi's Bern doesn't hate nor fears Hanyuu
You are assuming that Hanyuu = Featherine, whereas it is possible for Hanyuu to be the same to Featherin as Rika/Frederica is to Bernkastel.
Furthermore, we have no idea what is the time gap between Higurashi and Umineko. For all we know, it could pretty well be a thousand years with Hanyuu or Featherin turning twisted.
The fact Umineko is set on 1986 doesn't mean we are indeed 3 years after Higurashi (it doesn't work this way, since both universes aren't on the same plane/axis... otherwise, the whole idea with the kakera doesn't make sense whatsoever either).

Quote:
Umineko's Bern is strongly hinted to have been a cat in her original form.
Higurashi's Bern was born from Rika which is by no mean a cat. Higurashi's Bern completely lacks all the feline features of her Umineko counterpart.
Umineko's bern is confirmed to be human to begin with, as stated in Episode 2. I see no reason why you think she was "originally" a cat.
Quote:
Sure there are many things that they have in common, but the few existing differences make it clear that they are absolutely not the same being. Umineko's Bern and Higurashi's Bern are as similar as Hanyuu and Featherinne.
The thing is that you are mistaking something big here: I never stated that Bernkastel = Frederica. I stated that Bernkastel is a derived being from Rika and then Frederica.
I consider Bernkastel as the nameless observer residing in the kakera world as Frederica is jumping back and forth.

Minagoroshi-hen introduction is a very clear indication that there is yet another "frederica" that stays on the sidelines and look how "Rika" is struggling. She also toys the kakera to see what other result there are.

My interpretation of Rika, Frederica and Bernkastel was made here. I personally think there is originally Furude Rika, the "prime being" that was killed in reality before the whole memory transfer between the kakeras started by Hanyuu. Then we have that "Frederica" trying to get the happiness that "Furude Rika is longing for", and finally, there is Bernkastel, the one observing everything, turning herself into a witch.

Last edited by Klashikari; 2010-11-29 at 16:38.
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Old 2010-11-29, 16:29   Link #19212
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
The term "multiverse" would be more appropriate in this case. At any rate if you think you can consider the two stories set in the same "universe" even if the settings are different what exactly does that mean?
By that logic you could even claim that Neon Genesis Evangelion and Haruhi Suzumiya are set in the same "universe" just because they are both set on planet earth.
Then think of it as two worlds that share the same metaphysical structure. They are both in the same world (real world setting) but all the kakera from both Higurashi and Uminko exist in some form in the same metaworld.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Again, by that logic you could say that All the various "final fantasy" are set in the same "universe" because there are a lot of reoccurring elements. A counterpart doesn't mean at all that the "universe" is the same. There is a Cid counterpart in every single final fantasy, and yet they are not all set in the same universe.
Well this is a bad example, because with the Dissidia games, it could be argued that they share a multiverse ruled by Chaos and Harmony. But this is neither here nor there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I don't understand what you mean about cheapening the Higurashi's plot. Anyway, why everyone thinks that the backstories are the same? They are not. They have a few points in common and then they have a few points that do not match at all.

Umineko's Bern was a Game Master's piece
Nowhere in Higurashi was said that Bern was a Game Master's piece. Actually as far as I know there are no Game Masters in Higurashi.

Umineko's Bern was trapped inside a logic error, a world devoid of any sense.
Higurashi's Bern was trapped in endless cycle, forced to repeat the same timespan over and over again. This was neither a logic error nor a nonsensical world.

Umineko's Bern hates and fears Featherinne
Higurashi's Bern doesn't hate nor fears Hanyuu

Umineko's Bern is strongly hinted to have been a cat in her original form.
Higurashi's Bern was born from Rika which is by no mean a cat. Higurashi's Bern completely lacks all the feline features of her Umineko counterpart.


Sure there are many things that they have in common, but the few existing differences make it clear that they are absolutely not the same being. Umineko's Bern and Higurashi's Bern are as similar as Hanyuu and Featherinne.
I think you're taking what's shown waaaaay too literally. Especially for a series like Umineko. For example, just because Bern can change into a cat it really doesn't mean she was a cat in her original form. And I think people have made pretty good theories on how to fit in all the game master and piece analogies into Higurashi in a way that fits as Higurashi was originally presented.
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Old 2010-11-29, 16:54   Link #19213
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I always thought it was obvious that Higurashi was a Lambda VS Featherine thing, considering it's Bern's origin story.

Two points that kind've got swept waaay back in conversation.

1) Who would Yasu/Shannon cover for, if she is Beatrice? EVERYONE. Her characterization makes it pretty clear, imo, that she will take the fall for the culprit no matter who it is.

Except maybe Gohda.

2) What if the culprit is a Witch? Cao, would you like to elaborate on what you meant, here? It seems you were going for a metaphorical meaning, like a human with a witch mentality?
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Old 2010-11-29, 16:58   Link #19214
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If the culprit was a witch then s/he wouldn't fall under the same category of needs or wants to commit murder than a normal human. So the motivation doesn't need to be love or greed, it can be other things.
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Old 2010-11-29, 17:11   Link #19215
Ayu-ayu
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
I always thought it was obvious that Higurashi was a Lambda VS Featherine thing, considering it's Bern's origin story.
If it is her origin point, then yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I had come to a similar conclusion as Klashikari, but with the difference being that I believed that Frederica was Bern's higher-level piece and that Bern's existence predated the Higurashi world (seeing her in the role you are placing Featherine). This clearly contradicts the rest of the evidence though, what with Bern being Featherine's prior miko, Lambdadelta being older than Bern, etc.

Also with Featherine being a Witch of Theater-going, this makes her more observer than participant, which explains Hanyuu's relative lack of action. It was necessary to create a Witch of Miracles in order to escape the closed Maze of Certainty laid by Lamdadelta.

I was the most unhappy.
Because I knew this maze had no exit.
He was the next most unhappy.
Because he didn't know that this maze had no exit.
The other masses weren't unhappy.
Because they didn't even know they were in a maze.
--Frederica Bernkastel


Quote:
1) Who would Yasu/Shannon cover for, if she is Beatrice? EVERYONE. Her characterization makes it pretty clear, imo, that she will take the fall for the culprit no matter who it is.

This sounds a lot like Rule Z from Higurashi, where the Sonozakis will always get blamed for/take responsibility for what happens.
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Last edited by Ayu-ayu; 2010-11-29 at 17:41. Reason: corrected Rule (thanks Keriaku!)
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Old 2010-11-29, 17:21   Link #19216
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Originally Posted by Ayu-ayu View Post
This sounds a lot like Rule Y (I hope I remembered the right letter) from Higurashi, where the Sonozakis will always get blamed for/take responsibility for what happens.
This would be Rule Z
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Old 2010-11-29, 17:42   Link #19217
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Originally Posted by Keriaku View Post
This would be Rule Z
Fixed! Thanks. I should have just checked the Higurashi TIPS page.
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Old 2010-11-29, 17:53   Link #19218
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
You are using some fallacy explaining a logic that I arguably didn't state as such.
You exactly know what I meant there: that both universes are connected by certain characters, that's all it is.
No you are the one who got in the middle of an already ongoing discussion. You countered my argument that was based on that particular ground, you cannot now say that you meant something different. Let me quote the starting sentence:

Quote:
I'll admit that Higurashi being completely fictional in the world of Umineko is the simplest answer. However, unless you can show that every possible combination of arcs of Higurashi and Umineko (this includes every official version of every arc) leads to a contradiction, you cannot reasonably claim that it is impossible for them to take place in the same world.
I countered this specific statement. If you meant something different then you shouldn't have replied.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
You were actually the one who stated the following quote:
"Lastly Bern's background story doesn't match at all. Unless you think that Higurashi sucked that much that you could compare it with some rubbish created by a bunch of monkeys pressing typewriters' buttons randomly."
You obviously completely forgot this:

Quote:
.........Have you heard of the infinite monkey theorem?
......It's a theory...no, an absurdity... arguing that, if a monkey hits random letters on a typewriter for an infinite amount of time, ......he will probably end up with the exact same set of letters as Hamlet by coincidence, sooner or later.
.........Wouldn't that be a horrible hell? .........Bern was forced to type randomly on a typewriter for an eternal period of time, without even knowing the meaning of what she was doing. .........The Game Master was trying to get Bern to create a goal that the same Game Master hadn't even thought of.
I am not the one who is comparing Bern's past to the infinite monkey theorem, it was Lambda inside the game who did. The kind of "logic error" Bern found herself was this kind of hell. It was illogic, random, and without a precise goal. This is what Lambda said not me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
A logic error doesn't mean it is a world devoid of any sense. Actually, the logic error implies that the said world or context is basically overwritten with a state that does not make sense.
See above. Bern's logic error wasn't an ordinary logic error, it was a nonsense logic error.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Umineko's bern is confirmed to be human to begin with, as stated in Episode 2. I see no reason why you think she was "originally" a cat.
There are several hints. The siesta sisters should have already taught you that Ryuukishi doesn't make senseless fanservice. The Siesta sisters don't have bunny ears just because, and Bern doesn't have a cat tail just because. Bern has also been frequently shown as morphing into a cat, but more importantly in the ura tea party in EP6 Featherinne (who obviously knows Bern's past and true form) told her that the cat she saw was in fact Bern herself.

Quote:
.........That was you, was it not? ......That cat.
Lastly in EP7 Bern summons a swarm of cats. Are you really drawing all of this as irrelevant?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
The thing is that you are mistaking something big here: I never stated that Bernkastel = Frederica. I stated that Bernkastel is a derived being from Rika and then Frederica.
I consider Bernkastel as the nameless observer residing in the kakera world as Frederica is jumping back and forth.
Epicycle. You understand that the Bern in Umineko is not the same Bern of Higurashi but instead of dropping the theory, you come up with some completely unsupported and more complicated theory in an attempt to explain the obvious discrepancy. Occam's razor dictates that if A and B are different, then that simply means A and B are different.


Quote:
Then think of it as two worlds that share the same metaphysical structure. They are both in the same world (real world setting) but all the kakera from both Higurashi and Uminko exist in some form in the same metaworld.
There is no indication of that being true. In fact everything suggests that the cosmological laws that governed Higurashi's multiverse are substantially different from the ones seen in Umineko.

Game Masters, Logic errors, pieces, furniture, fake scenes, mystery rules, supernatural absolutely forbidden in the human world.

Quote:
Well this is a bad example, because with the Dissidia games, it could be argued that they share a multiverse ruled by Chaos and Harmony. But this is neither here nor there.
You can't take Dissidia seriously. it would be the same as considering Super Robot Wars canon in each of the respective series' continuities.
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Old 2010-11-29, 18:37   Link #19219
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If the culprit was a witch then s/he wouldn't fall under the same category of needs or wants to commit murder than a normal human. So the motivation doesn't need to be love or greed, it can be other things.
And what do you mean by a "witch"? If you mean someone who can use magic, then those don't exist.

Quote:
Lastly in EP7 Bern summons a swarm of cats. Are you really drawing all of this as irrelevant?
"Neko-san nyan nyan~"

You were saying?

Quote:
There is no indication of that being true. In fact everything suggests that the cosmological laws that governed Higurashi's multiverse are substantially different from the ones seen in Umineko.

Game Masters, Logic errors, pieces, furniture, fake scenes, mystery rules, supernatural absolutely forbidden in the human world.
Umineko is a mystery genre kakera where there is no supernatural occurences. Higurashi is a more fantasy-oriented kakera where gods exist. What's the big deal?
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Old 2010-11-29, 18:55   Link #19220
CrystalStarlight95
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Umineko is a mystery genre kakera where there is no supernatural occurences. Higurashi is a more fantasy-oriented kakera where gods exist. What's the big deal?
Yeah, there are alot of kakeras out there. Some contain magic while others don't. I wish THIS kakera we all live in had magic ;~;
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