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Old 2010-11-30, 10:57   Link #19241
CrystalStarlight95
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Quote:
The kids are always chased out of the room for what we believe might be some nasty inheritance squabble, what if they really aren't evil bad people and just want to play a joke on the kids?
I forgot that it would be a prank, but c'mon, Maria's only a 9 year old. She strongly believes in Beatrice and obviously would think the "killings" would be her doing. Be a little disappointing if it all wasn't real.

And wouldn't it literally traumatize the other kids? Maybe Battler's sin was he never came back for 6 years, and when he finally does, they decide to teach him a lesson by playing a prank where everyone dies. But unfortunately, there had to be a real killer among 'em >_>
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Old 2010-11-30, 11:13   Link #19242
Renall
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There are actually many good reasons to be convinced to fake something. No doubt it would sound initially quite silly, but there are many strong motivating factors for helping out. If the faker is one of the servants, the other servants going along with it isn't too much of a stretch (especially given some circumstances suggested), and the adults all have financial problems and might very well be willing to go in on a strange or silly prank on the promise of money (a promise that can be backed up by the tangible physical presence of the gold, which is hinted in ep2).
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Old 2010-11-30, 11:22   Link #19243
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Then there's also a possibility of exposing Kinzo's death by making Natsuhi/Krauss spill the beans when people start 'dying'.
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Old 2010-11-30, 11:28   Link #19244
Jao
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I apologize if this has already been brought up before, but...

17 deaths in the first game
17 deaths in the second game
16 deaths in the third game
17 deaths in the fourth game

This makes 67

7 deaths in the fifth game makes 74

16 deaths in the seventh game makes 90

90 is 18 people away from the rather magical number of 108, and there's 18 people on the island including the quantum character (Kinzo/Erika/Lion/Beatrice).

I dunno what I'm getting at here, just found it interesting.
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Old 2010-11-30, 11:35   Link #19245
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I think a good hint would be Eva flat out telling Battler what was happening (Shannon dressing up as Beatrice, in some sort of ploy). So, it could really be that the whole thing was indeed planned to be a fake mystery for Battler to solve.

My problem with this would be how would this related at all with the love trial in EP6. I mean, I could easily say that Yasu/Lion planned this from the beginning, and that Shannon and Kanon along with their roles (as servants and as George's and Jessica's love interests) were entirely fictional, but then that'd make me wonder if this create any friction with EP6's love trial.

Of course, I could also assume that Yasu did play the Shannon and Kanon roles before 1986 and that she did get close to George and Jessica as it was shown in the games, but then it'd make me question her a lot if she just decided to forget about them, as soon as she heard Battler would come back. This would be contradictory as well, since I don't think George and Jessica would take part in this game, had Yasu done that to them.

There's also the assumption that she did plan this game with the adults, but before she heard about Battler coming back, and this game had, originally, nothing to do with Battler.

Either way, I'm still wondering why Battler's presence in the island caused the whole thing to go from one (supposedly) mere game to a massacre. I think there are enough hints to say things didn't go in a way Yasu wanted them to, but it makes me wonder who exploited this game this way and for what reason.
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Old 2010-11-30, 12:34   Link #19246
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I still don't think Shannon or Kanon (as we know them, perhaps there was once a "real Shannon" back in '76) ever existed anywhere but Yasu's mind and works of fiction.
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Old 2010-11-30, 12:40   Link #19247
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Originally Posted by CrystalStarlight95 View Post
Do you suppose the culprit had been waiting patiently all this time and when--I dunno, SOMEBODY--mentioned they play a fake killing game, did the culprit decide to take this chance to actually kill?
Or like the quote above, the killer went, "Hey, guys! Let's pretend we all DIE for no apparant reason! I promise I won't ACTUALLY kill you, this is just supposed to be a game, right~?"

And why the heck would someone suggest pretending to be dead at all? Did they all plan this before they got to the island? I'm asking this because how the heck can they plan the deaths, get the drugs that faked the death (if there were any), and execute those plans in only a few hours? Who was twisted enough to think this? (the culprit <_<)

Finally, why would they do this? A test for the survivors to see who is capable of being the new heir?
Jan-Poo had this theory about this being a 'game' of sorts, or rather it was all intended to be a bunch of faking, if you discount the murderer going around actually killing people. Or the revenge killers like Eva and possibly Kyrie now making even more of a mess...

In short, my idea is that the Beatrice faction (most of the servants, at least GENSAWAJO), are under orders from Beatrice to do this. They follow the Epitaph closely, faking people's deaths for Battler. This is why one of the siblings always keeps Battler close in EP1-4 since they were selected as the key and this is how Beatrice can return the dead to life later.... It is probably to make Battler cave and believe in magic, perhaps?

Check out the topics in the link in my signature. It explains all this in greater detail.
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Old 2010-11-30, 13:58   Link #19248
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
This is why one of the siblings always keeps Battler close in EP1-4 since they were selected as the key and this is how Beatrice can return the dead to life later.... It is probably to make Battler cave and believe in magic, perhaps?
Wouldn't it be more appropriate to say it is always one of the mothers that keeps Battler close? Krauss or Rudolf never stuck particularly close to Battler(and none of the siblings in EP4).
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Old 2010-11-30, 14:27   Link #19249
Used Can
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I still don't think Shannon or Kanon (as we know them, perhaps there was once a "real Shannon" back in '76) ever existed anywhere but Yasu's mind and works of fiction.
Yeah, I think that's a possibility. The only reason why I haven't embraced it entirely is the Love Trial - to be more accurate, the conflict between Shannon, Kanon and Beatrice. If I were to dismiss Shannon and Kanon as beings who never existed outside of Yasu's written fiction, then I think the Love Trial would lose some of its relevance. Of course, I'm not saying it would become entirely irrelevant, since it'd still have an important meaning to it, but somehow, I feel it's relevance wouldn't be as heavy as it seems to be, especially, when it seems to be one of the things to be found at the core of this mystery.

In addition to this, the person Battler remembers from 6 years prior is Shannon. So, at the very least we can tell Yasu was going by that name on 1980. She was also working as a servant, although, as impressions go by, she didn't look like a mere servant, but as the child of one of them - or so, that's what the cousins seemed to think. Of course, we could say this part of the story is also elaborated fiction - or, it is to some extent, like when it comes down to names, for example. However, personally, I'm not willing to doubt the story that far. Either way, that'd still be valid reasoning, I think.
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Old 2010-11-30, 14:32   Link #19250
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I think it can work in every episode that faking was intended, or at least fakery was the proposal made to the genuine victims by the killer; however, with the exception of ep5 and ep6, the fakery was never completed prior to the discovery. In those episodes, the FT actually was faked properly, but people were killed subsequent.
Hrm.

Thing is, I took from EP 5 and 6 that the FT is always supposed to be faked, just ... it usually fails because of real murder. Ep 5 and 6 werent even really hinting at it - those arcs said that, outright.

The problem, then, is who actually killed the cousins + Rosa/Genji in Ep5, and where. Which brings me to another thing (sorry, I've been reading these threads forever, but I only just started posting, so I dunno if any sort of conclusion was reached on certain matters).

That other thing being, ah, the information that was available to Erika. The cousins were killed after they were "discovered" in the guesthouse, but the technicality was that even though Erika ended the game prematurely, the Red truths used by Lambda referred to a point in time, on the gameboard, that Erika chose to just not participate in, right? So the cousins could have been alive and well at the time Erika cornered Natsuhi in the parlor...

So... why was the faking so succesful in Ep 5 ...?
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Old 2010-11-30, 14:42   Link #19251
Jao
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
The problem, then, is who actually killed the cousins + Rosa/Genji in Ep5, and where.
The 'bomb' right? It's responsible for the last few deaths in Eps 1 and 2 and Battler's death in 4. Who says it's not responsible for every death in 5 and 6? (6 if Erika hadn't gone yangire)
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Old 2010-11-30, 14:47   Link #19252
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The problem would be why? Is the bomb always set to detonate, no matter what may happen?

In EP5 two things happened:

1. The Epitaph got solved - by Battler, to boot.
2. The fake murders were, apparently, successful. So, no one really died.

So, assuming the points above are right, why the explosion?
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Old 2010-11-30, 14:49   Link #19253
Jao
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We never got to see most of the second day, for all we know Erika could have set the bomb herself after using her detective proclamation to accuse Natsuhi.

Also, the first five or six deaths were faked, but Hideyoshi's might not have been (I can't really remember). There still could have been something going on behind the scenes and crucially in Eps 5-6 this might be to do with the arrival of Erika itself.
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Old 2010-11-30, 14:53   Link #19254
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EP5 and EP6 weren't complete at the time the game stopped so we don't know how they would end. Technically speaking, unless red is used to outright tell the state of a person there is a possibility that the person could still be alive. I already said in these threads that the game master could alter the shape of the game that s/he might originally planned depending on how the detective moves.
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Old 2010-11-30, 15:02   Link #19255
Used Can
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Originally Posted by Jao View Post
We never got to see most of the second day, for all we know Erika could have set the bomb herself after using her detective proclamation to accuse Natsuhi.
Why would Erika do it, though? We knew her motive in EP6. In EP5, there's simply no motivation at all for her, at the very least, not up to the point where we saw the story end.

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Also, the first five or six deaths were faked, but Hideyoshi's might not have been (I can't really remember).
The problem is, no one could have possibly killed Hideyoshi. The only ones in that room were Hideyoshi and Natsuhi. If you remember, even though Natsuhi couldn't see anything, she didn't listen to any particular footsteps or any noise that would indicate the presence of a person other than Hideyoshi and herself in the room.

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There still could have been something going on behind the scenes and crucially in Eps 5-6 this might be to do with the arrival of Erika itself.
Maybe, but then we'd have to check which those factors may have been and how they'd influence the decision of using the bomb on an episode in which, apparently, there was no need to use it.
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Old 2010-11-30, 15:07   Link #19256
Kealym
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Originally Posted by Jao View Post
We never got to see most of the second day, for all we know Erika could have set the bomb herself after using her detective proclamation to accuse Natsuhi.
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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
EP5 and EP6 weren't complete at the time the game stopped so we don't know how they would end. Technically speaking, unless red is used to outright tell the state of a person there is a possibility that the person could still be alive. I already said in these threads that the game master could alter the shape of the game that s/he might originally planned depending on how the detective moves.
Yeah, this is probably what MOST confuses me about Erika. It was clearly shown in Battler's game that the Game Master can basically Ctrl+Z on certain things, and alter the shape of the game. Beatrice can probably be seen doing this a couple times in the first four games, if you'd like. But the game still has to, ah, fit into the box - the Game Master can change things, but there still has to be an explanation involving what's possible for humans. There has to be a solution, or else, logic error.

Strictly speaking, a "logic error" probably isnt even possible, and only occurs when the GM doesnt know their own answer, and so cant defend their moves properly.

So ... yeah, Erika. We didn't get to see most of games 5 and 6, and apparently, neither did Erika. Even though it was heavily implied that both of those games had conclusions, but Erika chose to ignore them. In a very literal sense, as though she'd decided she could identify the culprit on Chapter 10 or so of a 30-chapter novel, and just put the book down.

And then there's the fact that, despite being the detective (and a rather astute one, at that), she never noted anything odd about Shannon / Kanon, between the number of people she saw, and the number of names she was clearly using. In fact, she ignored them almost completely, huh?
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Old 2010-11-30, 15:11   Link #19257
Renall
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Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
In addition to this, the person Battler remembers from 6 years prior is Shannon. So, at the very least we can tell Yasu was going by that name on 1980. She was also working as a servant, although, as impressions go by, she didn't look like a mere servant, but as the child of one of them - or so, that's what the cousins seemed to think. Of course, we could say this part of the story is also elaborated fiction - or, it is to some extent, like when it comes down to names, for example. However, personally, I'm not willing to doubt the story that far. Either way, that'd still be valid reasoning, I think.
I have never seen an Ushiromiya Battler-Prime, nor has anyone else; just Meta-Battler and Piece-Battler. Piece-Battler is a fictional construct and can remember whoever he wants. How Meta-Battler responds to the notion of Shannon is, however, a more intriguing question. But how often does that actually come up? I'd be curious to know. I seem to recall the lion's share (no pun intended) of ruminations on Shannon are in Piece-Battler's memory.

Plus it's entirely possible to just fictionalize and transfer a bunch of real encounters between Yasu and Battler to Shannon and Battler. Only Battler-Prime would know for sure.

The Love Trial is relevant if Beatrice, Shannon, and Kanon are fictionalizations of internal conflicts or options for the future. The personalities in conflict representing not actual personalities, but a decision to be made as to how to proceed. Shannon winning may not be such a good thing.

EDIT: In fact, it could be a very, very bad thing, if we associate the Shannon-George relationship as representing a metaphorical "throw everything away and forge a new life" concept...
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Old 2010-11-30, 15:19   Link #19258
Jao
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Why would Erika do it, though? We knew her motive in EP6. In EP5, there's simply no motivation at all for her, at the very least, not up to the point where we saw the story end.
The uh...

The shame at having been fooled and humiliated so utterly? She isn't the sanest cast member.

Quote:
The problem is, no one could have possibly killed Hideyoshi. The only ones in that room were Hideyoshi and Natsuhi. If you remember, even though Natsuhi couldn't see anything, she didn't listen to any particular footsteps or any noise that would indicate the presence of a person other than Hideyoshi and herself in the room.
Up until then I could agree that all the siblings were acting, but Eva, a martial artist, beating up Natsuhi was witnessed by both Erika and Battler and aknowledged in the narration as being some nasty beating. I find it hard to believe that was faked, and if Eva wasn't in on anything then I find it hard to believe that the adults who were would have allowed it to happen. Rudolf and Kyrie just stood there making =/ faces.

Quote:
Maybe, but then we'd have to check which those factors may have been and how they'd influence the decision of using the bomb on an episode in which, apparently, there was no need to use it.
Think of how in Higurashi Keiichi not showing up is an automatic loss for Rika, perhaps the untimely arrival of another visitor after the storm had started (So the murderer could make an accurate prediction that they were going to be isolated for the next couple of days), and a detective at that, threw them so much they decided to take drastic measures.
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Old 2010-11-30, 15:34   Link #19259
Used Can
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I have never seen an Ushiromiya Battler-Prime, nor has anyone else; just Meta-Battler and Piece-Battler.
Personally, I think this is a rather delicate issue, because, for all we know, we've never seen a Prime character.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Piece-Battler is a fictional construct and can remember whoever he wants. How Meta-Battler responds to the notion of Shannon is, however, a more intriguing question. But how often does that actually come up? I'd be curious to know.
For all we know, Meta-Battler could be a fictional character as well. The problem is, the more we start questioning what is fiction or not, makes me wonder if we can agree if any other the information we're presented is real, at all. This is why I sad the whole Prime issue, in my opinion, is rather delicate. That is also the reason why I'd rather not distrust the story that much. But, all the same, that's just the way I'd rather take this game.

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I seem to recall the lion's share (no pun intended) of ruminations on Shannon are in Piece-Battler's memory.
You are correct. What I couldn't recall properly was if it was Battler's memory or one of the other cousins.

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Plus it's entirely possible to just fictionalize and transfer a bunch of real encounters between Yasu and Battler to Shannon and Battler. Only Battler-Prime would know for sure.
Indeed it is, especially since we're talking about works of fiction here. However, none of the characters we've seen so far have questioned Shannon's and/or Kanon's existence, so far, I believe (of course, no one has stated they may be the same person either - not even Erika and Will). We have that issue in Lion's world, but all the same, Lion's world is rather weird with a mixture of too many things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
The Love Trial is relevant if Beatrice, Shannon, and Kanon are fictionalizations of internal conflicts or options for the future. The personalities in conflict representing not actual personalities, but a decision to be made as to how to proceed. Shannon winning may not be such a good thing.
What options, though? Love is a very important matter in this game, and Shannon and Kanon both represent options as far as love is related. If Shannon and Kanon didn't exist, what options was Yasu being conflicted by? Did she still have a relationship with George and Jessica like Shannon and Kanon do? If she doesn't, then what can these options be and how do they relate to love?

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EDIT: In fact, it could be a very, very bad thing, if we associate the Shannon-George relationship as representing a metaphorical "throw everything away and forge a new life" concept...
Hmm... would that be a bad thing? Aren't we usually told that being stuck on past possibilities that didn't/haven't come to be is a bad thing (especially, when they are painful), and that moving on and finding happiness elsewhere is good?
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Old 2010-11-30, 15:49   Link #19260
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Not if "throw everything away" involves 900 tons of explosives, if you see where I'm going with this.
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I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

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