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Old 2010-12-05, 12:51   Link #19441
CrystalStarlight95
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Hmm...I find you guys very interesting to read about, I'm gone one night and come back to all these amazing theories~

Anywho...as for the bomb....I heard about this one. How the epitaph was actually supposed to warn you of the bomb, and that the gold was in a bomb shelter so if you found the gold, the bomb wouldn't kill you.

But where did this theory come up from? And who would've planted it on the island? And WHERE could it possibly be hiding? In the well, or in the chapel?

Sorry, I would think it'd be O_O if it was a bomb...People are also saying Yasu was setting it up. But why would she set it up, if she just wanted a friendly fake-mystery game with Battler?
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Old 2010-12-05, 12:51   Link #19442
DaBackpack
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Originally Posted by Glass Heart View Post
And couldn't Shannon really be the murderer ?

After all, it would be more easy to her to commit the murders (thanks to her multiple personalities disorder) and, as Yasu, could be himself interested by the inheritance (as the son of Kinzo and the woman he truly loves).

Yasu could have a STRONG hate for both Natsuhi and Rosa. Rosa has killed his mother and Natsuhi has deprived him from all his right to the inheritance by trying to kill him.

Shannon could also hate Eva for the way she treats her and keeps her away from George (maybe she doesn't really like George but that she sees this as a way to become a real Ushiromiya, to "be someone").

And, most of all, she could hate Kyrie and Rudolph because of their quick marriage which was the reason why Battler was absent one year after their promise.


Because I don't really imagine the parents going along with a "plan" to test Battler. Most of them despise Shannon and Kanon as furnitures.

But yes, I agree that one of the adults could have discovered what she was doing (without Shannon actually knowing of it) and could have decided to go along with it, planning to use it as a way to gain the inhéritance.
This is equally valid, because it's hard to imagine that all of the Ushiromiyas are that good at acting.

But I think that the actual things the Ushiromiyas do are really dumb and cliched (forcing out the servants whenever there's trouble) and it makes more sense if it's planned like a script.

The Fake murder scheme by Shannon also explains the bank accounts better than "Shannon is the culprit".
And the family members are only going along because they are being bribed by Shannon's gold!
And there's also A servant cannot be the culprit!, stated by Van Dine in EP7.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrystalStarlight95 View Post
Hmm...I find you guys very interesting to read about, I'm gone one night and come back to all these amazing theories~

Anywho...as for the bomb....I heard about this one. How the epitaph was actually supposed to warn you of the bomb, and that the gold was in a bomb shelter so if you found the gold, the bomb wouldn't kill you.

But where did this theory come up from? And who would've planted it on the island? And WHERE could it possibly be hiding? In the well, or in the chapel?

Sorry, I would think it'd be O_O if it was a bomb...People are also saying Yasu was setting it up. But why would she set it up, if she just wanted a friendly fake-mystery game with Battler?
I personally think Yasu did not plan the bomb herself. I used to think that Kinzo hated his family so much that he had a bomb detonate on one of the family conferences (foreshadowed to in the very first scene of EP1, "I will give you everything you have given me, Beatrice!!!" etc.). Plus he viewed the family as "interest" gained from Beatrice's gold.

Yasu did not know about the bomb: Shannon's goal, for Battler to solve the Epitaph, just happened to be the only way for him to survive when the bomb went off.

That's "meh" though. I don't like coincidences.
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Old 2010-12-05, 13:04   Link #19443
Glass Heart
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Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
This is equally valid, because it's hard to imagine that all of the Ushiromiyas are that good at acting.

But I think that the actual things the Ushiromiyas do are really dumb and cliched (forcing out the servants whenever there's trouble) and it makes more sense if it's planned like a script.

The Fake murder scheme by Shannon also explains the bank accounts better than "Shannon is the culprit".

And there's also A servant cannot be the culprit!, stated by Van Dine in EP7.
Yes but, as Yasu, Shannon may be considered more than just a servant. She is a member of the family, even if they don't know of it.

But yes, it can't explain the bank accounts. But I really don't imagine the parents going along with a mascarade, even for money.
And especially with this story of resolving the epitaph. If the whole thing was a set-up, it wasn't necessary to talk about resolving the epitaph. It seems more like someone challenging them to prove that he is better than them, and therefore more worthy of the Ushiromiya's fortune.


There is also another thing (unrelated to what I said previously, I precise): is it explicitly stated that Kinzo and Asumu's deaths were natural deaths and not murders ?
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Old 2010-12-05, 13:11   Link #19444
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Originally Posted by Glass Heart View Post
Yes but, as Yasu, Shannon may be considered more than just a servant. She is a member of the family, even if they don't know of it.

But yes, it can't explain the bank accounts. But I really don't imagine the parents going along with a mascarade, even for money.
And especially with this story of resolving the epitaph. If the whole thing was a set-up, it wasn't necessary to talk about the epitaph. It seems more like someone challenging them to prove that he is better than them, and therefore more worthy of the Ushiromiya's fortune.


There is also another thing (unrelated to what I said previously, I precise): is it explicitly stated that Kinzo and Asumu's deaths were natural deaths and not murders ?
As for the Epitaph, remember that this is all inspired by "And Then There Were None": the Epitaph is the foundation for the "plotline murders" that the poem was for Agatha Christie's novel. And it seems that she wants him to solve the Epitaph, not for the gold, but because she's playing a game with him.

And it really depends on your definition of servant: if Shannon truly is not considered a servant by Ryukishi, then the Red Truth does not apply.

Don't forget how BADLY the siblings need the money. I think they would do anything for Yasu's gold. They just don't want to kill her immediately because Shannon knows where the gold is.

I also think the siblings are told by Shannon to NEVER drop the charade or else they won't get paid. That is why nobody questions the crime scenes: they really want the money and are afraid to see if the people are actually dead.
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Old 2010-12-05, 13:12   Link #19445
CrystalStarlight95
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There is also another thing (unrelated to what I said previously, I precise): is it explicitly stated that Kinzo and Asumu's deaths were natural deaths and not murders ?
You know what, I don't think they ever tell you. In the beginning of EP5, after the intro, they manage to get into Kinzo's study and find him dead (I think ._.)

As for Asumu, they just say she died. Nobody even knows what she looks like, just that she died when Battler was 13. (Yeah, I think it was 6 years ago when she died, it's what caused Battler to live with his grandparents for the next 6 years)
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Old 2010-12-05, 14:22   Link #19446
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by Glass Heart View Post
And couldn't Shannon really be the murderer ?

After all, it would be easy to her to commit the murders (thanks to her multiple identities) and, as Yasu, could be himself interested by the inheritance (as the son of Kinzo and the woman he truly loves).

Yasu could have a STRONG hate for both Natsuhi and Rosa. Rosa has killed his mother and Natsuhi has deprived him from all his rights to the inheritance by trying to kill him.

Shannon could also hate Eva for the way she treats her and keeps her away from George (maybe she doesn't really like George but that she sees him as a way to become a real Ushiromiya, to "be someone").

And, most of all, she could hate Kyrie and Rudolph because of their quick marriage which was the reason why Battler was absent one year after their promise.


Because I don't really imagine the parents going along with a "plan" to test Battler. Most of them despise Shannon and Kanon as furnitures.

But yes, I agree that one of the adults could have discovered what she was doing (without Shannon actually knowing of it) and could have decided to go along with it, planning to use it as a way to gain the inheritance.

the gold of the Golden Land belongs to this child
Her goal is not to make someone experience fear.
And it isn't to have revenge on someone either.
Beato never committed murder for the sake of pleasure.


It isn't for hate.
It isn't for money.
It isn't for revenge.
It isn't for pleasure.

Yasu's reasons are nothing of that sort.
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Old 2010-12-05, 14:45   Link #19447
DaBackpack
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
the gold of the Golden Land belongs to this child
Her goal is not to make someone experience fear.
And it isn't to have revenge on someone either.
Beato never committed murder for the sake of pleasure.


It isn't for hate.
It isn't for money.
It isn't for revenge.
It isn't for pleasure.

Yasu's reasons are nothing of that sort.
Wow, I forgot about those. Does that mean we were right about the fake deaths and the hijacking of the situation by one of the adults?
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Old 2010-12-05, 14:53   Link #19448
AuraTwilight
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Quote:
And there's also A servant cannot be the culprit!, stated by Van Dine in EP7.
Not that I think Shannon is the culprit, but I gotta interject here because this really bugs me. This Dine rule is a paraphrase, and the actual rule, like the Knox Chinaman rule, is generally about disallowing third rate solutions by having a flat character that should be Beneath Suspicion be the culprit. As Will demonstrated, he pulled out this rule when a servant was being harassed despite having no possible motive, but he didn't invoke it when Shannon/Yasu was being propped up.

The thing is, aside from Gohda, the servants of the Rokkenjima family are not beneath suspicion. They're all complicit in several dirty secrets from several different people and groups, and atleast one of them is demonstrated to be totally out of her mind and emotionally unstable.

So, no, by it's intended meaning, Dine's 7th does not protect any of the Rokkenjima servants except Gohda.
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Old 2010-12-05, 14:57   Link #19449
Kylon99
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Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
Wow, I forgot about those. Does that mean we were right about the fake deaths and the hijacking of the situation by one of the adults?
Well, EP5 and EP6 provided us with an answer, really. EP5 showed that the nearly all the cousins (even though it's not that often for them) go along with faking for the first twilight. EP6 showed us that the wives of the siblings go along with the faking, although it seemed that it was Battler who was in charge of Beatrice's game on the gameboard in that episode.

It all seems like the act was to hit Battler over the head with two themes; mysteries and love. As if making him realize these things would jog his head about Shannon, whom he used to talk about these things to.


And of course, EP5 shows us that after the faking, real murders occur, since people could state in red that the people who faked were murdered eventually. And EP3's ending shows Eva killing Battler, showing us that there's at least one person there who is willing to kill when feeling threatened...
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Old 2010-12-05, 15:04   Link #19450
Mikachiru
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I think why Yasu thinks she can't love and she's furniture is because of how no one really wanted her. Think about it. Kinzo gives Yasu to Natsuhi; She gets thrown off a cliff. Genji and Nanjo save her; they put her in an orphanage. Then she goes to work in Rokkenjima...And the servants don't like her, or something. She finds about getting tossed around fron Kinzo to Natsuhi to Genji and Nanjo and starts thinking she's furniture. If she couldn't be loved, then she reasoned she couldn't love anyone.

BTW, I haven't read EP7.
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Old 2010-12-05, 15:20   Link #19451
DaBackpack
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Well, EP5 and EP6 provided us with an answer, really. EP5 showed that the nearly all the cousins (even though it's not that often for them) go along with faking for the first twilight. EP6 showed us that the wives of the siblings go along with the faking, although it seemed that it was Battler who was in charge of Beatrice's game on the gameboard in that episode.

It all seems like the act was to hit Battler over the head with two themes; mysteries and love. As if making him realize these things would jog his head about Shannon, whom he used to talk about these things to.


And of course, EP5 shows us that after the faking, real murders occur, since people could state in red that the people who faked were murdered eventually. And EP3's ending shows Eva killing Battler, showing us that there's at least one person there who is willing to kill when feeling threatened...
But the evidence supports that theory as a constant in ALL games, not just EP5 and EP6, where it's implied.

And yes, aside from Kyrie killing the fakers, somebody has to kill Kyrie by the end of the game (or the bomb gets her).

EDIT:
After all, Battler, the guy who figured out the truth, used the fake First Twilight as a part of his solution. Therefore, it seems like "somebody coordinating the fake deaths" is a part of the core of the Umineko series.

I just connected this to Shannon's love of mystery to make Shannon is bribing everyone with money to play a game with Battler, then Kyrie starts actually committing murder.
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Old 2010-12-05, 15:44   Link #19452
Shiro Kaisen
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This is a little unrelated to the topic at hand, but I think it's kinda cool.

Remember how in Episode 4, Everyone acknowledged the existence of Kinzo? And how GOLDSMITH summoned Yasu's magical friends like Gaap, Ronove, and the Siestas? Well, looks like we finally have an answer to that riddle. And hurray, it's almost exactly the same as my pet favourite theory from Ep. 6, Kanon-is-Kinzo.

Yasu decided, in the fictional world of Episode 4, to claim her place as the Ushiromiya family head once they realized that Kinzo was already dead. She reads Kinzo's will to everyone else, and they accept that Yasu is legitimately Kinzo's heir. She then proceeds to attempt to orchestrate the fake deaths from each Episode, and then gets taken advantage of. In short, Kanon is Shannon is Beatrice is Yasu is Kinzo.

Just by the existence of Gaap, this level of reasoning is possible for Erika Furudo. What do you think, everyone?
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Old 2010-12-05, 15:57   Link #19453
DaBackpack
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Originally Posted by Shiro Kaisen View Post
This is a little unrelated to the topic at hand, but I think it's kinda cool.

Remember how in Episode 4, Everyone acknowledged the existence of Kinzo? And how GOLDSMITH summoned Yasu's magical friends like Gaap, Ronove, and the Siestas? Well, looks like we finally have an answer to that riddle. And hurray, it's almost exactly the same as my pet favourite theory from Ep. 6, Kanon-is-Kinzo.

Yasu decided, in the fictional world of Episode 4, to claim her place as the Ushiromiya family head once they realized that Kinzo was already dead. She reads Kinzo's will to everyone else, and they accept that Yasu is legitimately Kinzo's heir. She then proceeds to attempt to orchestrate the fake deaths from each Episode, and then gets taken advantage of. In short, Kanon is Shannon is Beatrice is Yasu is Kinzo.

Just by the existence of Gaap, this level of reasoning is possible for Erika Furudo. What do you think, everyone?

Hehe, that fits perfectly with what we were saying before. "Kinzo" was a title given to Shannon/Kanon after revealing that he/she found the gold and became the head. I forgot about that XD

So, Yasu = Shannon = Kanon = Claire = Kinzo = Beatrice = Alternate-reality Lion.

That's another universal truth, then, that is only explicitly mentioned in EP4: Shannon becomes "Kinzo" (the family head) and everyone acknowledges it. Using the gold, she manipulates everyone to do her bidding but is then manipulated herself.

Thanks for bringing up that hint
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Old 2010-12-05, 15:59   Link #19454
AuraTwilight
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Pretty nice, but I think I remember hearing the Kinzo/Kanon thing back before EP5 came out.
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Old 2010-12-05, 16:02   Link #19455
Jan-Poo
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Well I guess you could say that in a way since Yasu is the heir and Yasu is Kanon.

However I'm really not comfortable with the concept that "if you are the heir you are Kinzo".
It doesn't make any sense to me. And if shkanon is true we can exclude that "Kinzo" is Kanon's real name.

I think the trick of that red is more on the fact that they acknowledged the existence of Kinzo. Why it doesn't simply say that Kinzo existed? Because he didn't. There is absolutely no Kinzo. Yasu simply made them acknowledge the existence of Kinzo the same way she made them acknowledge the existence of the witch Beatrice in EP2.


@DaBackpak and Kylon
I think Beatrice/Yasu simply is the "culprit" of the fictional games. For what concern the games Yasu is to be considered the culprit even if in reality she didn't actually do it. These are after all Beatrice's games, so even if an opportunity killer like Kyrie existed in Rokkenjima Prime, that still wouldn't make her the "true culprit" of the games.

The reason Yasu did it is simple: she needed to select the new heir, and at the same time the person she would love, which at the same time would decide her own fate, because depending on the winner she would either be Shannon, Kanon or Beatrice forever, killing off the remaining personalities.
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Old 2010-12-05, 16:07   Link #19456
Cao Ni Ma
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Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post

EDIT:
After all, Battler, the guy who figured out the truth, used the fake First Twilight as a part of his solution. Therefore, it seems like "somebody coordinating the fake deaths" is a part of the core of the Umineko series.

This is one of the things that got me confused about BATTLER in episode 6, I seriously doubt he anticipated Erika not using the detective authority and Im pretty he knew that she would thoroughly check the corpses with it seeing as he eliminated all tape on the island and "killed" most of the suspects from the previous games. The game was odd in it self because there was a lot of foreshadowing of the murderer killing the detective in that arc and it did start earlier than usual.

Im pretty sure that the characters where dead in EP5 as well, but since Erika didn't check the corpses Lambda was able to bring them back to life and move them.
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Old 2010-12-05, 16:19   Link #19457
Shiro Kaisen
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Speaking of Battler's game, I'd say it's completely obvious because of it that Yasu isn't the culprit in Real Rokkenjima.

Battler's game was to show that he truly understood Beatrice, and to do so his game would have to use the same fundamental truths. One of which would be the culprit's identity. However, Battler puts himself as the culprit of his game. In other words, the Game Master's avatar is the scapegoat. Battler obviously wasn't the culprit in Beato's game or Lambda's game. So, Yasu and Battler are both "culprits" and yet they're different people. Therefore, thanks to this contradiction, neither of them can be the real culprit.

As if we needed more evidence.
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Old 2010-12-05, 16:23   Link #19458
DaBackpack
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Originally Posted by Shiro Kaisen View Post
Speaking of Battler's game, I'd say it's completely obvious because of it that Yasu isn't the culprit in Real Rokkenjima.

Battler's game was to show that he truly understood Beatrice, and to do so his game would have to use the same fundamental truths. One of which would be the culprit's identity. However, Battler puts himself as the culprit of his game. In other words, the Game Master's avatar is the scapegoat. Battler obviously wasn't the culprit in Beato's game or Lambda's game. So, Yasu and Battler are both "culprits" and yet they're different people. Therefore, thanks to this contradiction, neither of them can be the real culprit.

As if we needed more evidence.
Correct: Battler wanted his character to be the "culprit" even though we all know that he cannot truly be the culprit in the other games. If Yasu is Beatrice, then she is trying to blame all of the crimes on herself.

I'm honestly confused when it comes to "whether Yasu is the culprit in her own stories" but I think I can speak for Rokkenjima Prime when I say Shannon has not committed murder.

Edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I think Beatrice/Yasu simply is the "culprit" of the fictional games. For what concern the games Yasu is to be considered the culprit even if in reality she didn't actually do it. These are after all Beatrice's games, so even if an opportunity killer like Kyrie existed in Rokkenjima Prime, that still wouldn't make her the "true culprit" of the games.
I think it's more of "Beatrice trying to blame herself for the crimes" instead of "Beatrice is actually making herself the culprit of the crimes in her stories". Since the bank account number DOES appear in one of Beatrice's stories, then the bribery of the adults is still implied in the fictitious stories. The bribery is unnecessary if she's actually killing people.

In BATTLER's story (EP6), the person planning the fake deaths is different than the person actually killing people. The First Twilight in EP6 seems to me to be a hint of the real setup of Beatrice's games. Ryukishi stopped there or else everything else would be more obvious.

It might be more like "Beatrice is taking something that happened in real life (Rokkenjima Prime) and is changing the methods of murder to create more mysteries".

But as I said, all of this thinking on multiple planes is hurting my brain x_x so there's a good chance I'm wrong about this stuff.

Last edited by DaBackpack; 2010-12-05 at 16:46.
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Old 2010-12-05, 16:50   Link #19459
Jan-Poo
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Right I'm also pretty sure she didn't kill anyone for real. But I'm not so sure about her not having any responsibility for what concerns the final explosions.
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Old 2010-12-05, 16:52   Link #19460
tcaz
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I think there might be sort of a 'reverse Higurashi' going on.

In Higurashi, the people being manipulated were mostly innocent (to an extent), and were the good guys even if they committed murder. The real culprit was the real evil- the one manipulating them.

In Umineko, though, it seems pretty obvious to me that Yasu is good, despite being the one that seems to be causing it all to happen. If Ep7's Tea Party is an indication of the truth, and 'Both Kyrie and Eva has a chance to kill everyone, along with the others' is true, as it says... then maybe in this case the culprit is actually a good guy, and the people they're manipulating end up being the real threat?

So perhaps we get a situation like Higurashi where who commits the actual murders differs from Episode to Episode, but we still have one 'sole culprit', as per the Dine rules. It's just the culprit of the crime doesn't want the crime to be real.


I'm not 100% sure on how it all fits, but just throwing that out there.




Also, please tell me I'm not the only one that thought it pretty obvious that Yasu's full name should be Yasuda Sayo, because one of my friends thinks it's a weird conclusion to make <.<
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