AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2010-12-05, 17:03   Link #19461
Cao Ni Ma
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Well Dine states that all blame should lay on the culprits shoulders so just giving the people in Rokkenjima the opportunity to murder each other isn't enough. I doubt that Yasu is the culprit but having her not kill any single person trough out the games would surprise me.
Cao Ni Ma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-05, 17:05   Link #19462
tcaz
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
Well Dine states that all blame should lay on the culprits shoulders so just giving the people in Rokkenjima the opportunity to murder each other isn't enough. I doubt that Yasu is the culprit but having her not kill any single person trough out the games would surprise me.
It also states that there can be 'sub-culprits' that help the main culprit.

It never actually states that the culprit has to kill anyone. And if Yasu engineers the whole thing... that pretty much qualifies her as the culprit, I'd say.

Regardless, it's just a thought I had.
tcaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-05, 17:09   Link #19463
DaBackpack
Blick Winkel
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Gobbled up by Promathia
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
Well Dine states that all blame should lay on the culprits shoulders so just giving the people in Rokkenjima the opportunity to murder each other isn't enough. I doubt that Yasu is the culprit but having her not kill any single person trough out the games would surprise me.
Well, there are the typical games (made by Beatrice, follow the formula "Shannon creates the fake deaths, someone kills the fake victims") but there are also outlier kakeras.

For instance, in a typical game the bomb kills everybody. However, in EP3, Eva solves the Epitaph, gets the remaining money from Yasu's gold stash, and survives. So depending on what happens throughout the games, different results may occur. In the Core Arcs, everything seems to change with the introduction of Erika Furudo.

What I think happens is that Yasu solves the Epitaph and receives the gold. She uses the gold as bribery for the adults to follow through with her plan.

However, once somebody else discovers the gold, they are no longer bound to Yasu's will (since they know where the gold is) and can kill people themselves.


Maybe. I'm not too sure about that one.

Edit:
Even better:
Once somebody finds the gold stash, they are no longer bound by Yasu's will and may hide somewhere safe. I take it that the adults may actually suspect that people are dying, but are too afraid to ruin Yasu's game because they want money. Once they are free from that, they can do whatever.
DaBackpack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-05, 17:09   Link #19464
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
Originally Posted by tcaz View Post
Also, please tell me I'm not the only one that thought it pretty obvious that Yasu's full name should be Yasuda Sayo, because one of my friends thinks it's a weird conclusion to make <.<
I think it's very probable that Sayo Yasuda is the name she is registered with in official documents or Yasuda Sayo if you want to put it in the Japanese way.

I can hardly see why it should be different. There are two things that we know for sure about Yasu's full name:

1) Her last name is Yasuda
2) Her first name starts with the first Kanji of "Shannon"

Why not Sayo? Even if it isn't Sayo it's still Sa-something or Sha-something.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-05, 17:30   Link #19465
CrystalStarlight95
Miss Kimi
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Residing as the 18th guest of Rokkenjima
Age: 19
LOL, why did I never think about Yasuda Sayo? Goodness, that helps alittle. I don't really think its anything else. Well, it works because....
Spoiler for EP7 thingy...:

Decided to spoiler that because it's VERY BIG. I don't think anyone can contradict that XD
__________________
(Colored over a Higurashi manga scan. Yes, I suck .-.)

"Were you not listening, Kimi-chan? Knox's 7th: It is forbidden for the detective to be the culprit."
CrystalStarlight95 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-05, 17:58   Link #19466
witchfan
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
But I think that the actual things the Ushiromiyas do are really dumb and cliched (forcing out the servants whenever there's trouble) and it makes more sense if it's planned like a script.
I support this. For example, in the first episode, I distantly recall Eva unconcernedly challenging Battler to solve the mystery, before retiring with Hideyoshi to her room (there's a murderer about, who does that?!). My memory might be a little off, though (it's been three? years since I read it). The general acted murder mystery pattern was probably broken in the 4th, and perhaps 3rd, episodes, although I do believe at least some adults kept some act going (Kyrie in the 4th, for example).
witchfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-05, 18:32   Link #19467
Kylon99
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
But the evidence supports that theory as a constant in ALL games, not just EP5 and EP6, where it's implied.

...

EDIT:
After all, Battler, the guy who figured out the truth, used the fake First Twilight as a part of his solution. Therefore, it seems like "somebody coordinating the fake deaths" is a part of the core of the Umineko series.
[/COLOR]
Yes, that is the theory so far. I kinda realized after EP5 that taking things that are suggested in one EP and going, "maybe it happened in all episodes" gave us a lot more answers. It didn't work all the time though.

The way to get past EP1-4 though is to say that the faking occurred independently of the actual murders and if the people or the story doesn't discover the faked deaths, when the story picks back up at 6am, the people have already been murdered by then. (Although EP5 was different since the guest house was under watch by Erika.)


There's also more about how the Key acts and why and other stuff. Check my signature, under Epitaph Fakery Theory.
Kylon99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-05, 18:57   Link #19468
Kylon99
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
Oops.. sorry for the double post.. but I wanted to bring up the question of just how much Krauss knows. Now.. he isn't often alive long enough to really do anything about this... but anyways...

These things were said of Krauss:
- Krauss was the one who had the island survey done, right?
- Krauss was also the one who had Toraian built...
- Krauss already has one gold bar, supposedly from the banker from years ago, and is the one to convince Natsuhi that the gold is real, if only in secret
- When the siblings were going to call Krauss' bluff about Kinzo, he came back and told Natsuhi that he's going to leave it to Genji.

What I'm getting at is, I wonder how much did he really think he was the head of the family... because I'm starting to think that he might have been doing what Yasu was telling him to do anyways. Of course Natsuhi knows nothing about this...

Because, if Krauss does an island survey and constructs Toraian (which is strangely named after the Kuwadorian pattern) then... he must know about the submarine base and Kuwadorian, right? It seems to me it's Genji (and perhaps the others of the Beatrice faction) who has control over Krauss and Krauss just does what he's told. For money, perhaps.
Kylon99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-05, 19:48   Link #19469
Quest 64
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: On nameless island
Spoiler for thought about Yoshua:
Quest 64 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-05, 20:08   Link #19470
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Oops.. sorry for the double post.. but I wanted to bring up the question of just how much Krauss knows. Now.. he isn't often alive long enough to really do anything about this... but anyways...

These things were said of Krauss:
- Krauss was the one who had the island survey done, right?
- Krauss was also the one who had Toraian built...
- Krauss already has one gold bar, supposedly from the banker from years ago, and is the one to convince Natsuhi that the gold is real, if only in secret
- When the siblings were going to call Krauss' bluff about Kinzo, he came back and told Natsuhi that he's going to leave it to Genji.

What I'm getting at is, I wonder how much did he really think he was the head of the family... because I'm starting to think that he might have been doing what Yasu was telling him to do anyways. Of course Natsuhi knows nothing about this...

Because, if Krauss does an island survey and constructs Toraian (which is strangely named after the Kuwadorian pattern) then... he must know about the submarine base and Kuwadorian, right? It seems to me it's Genji (and perhaps the others of the Beatrice faction) who has control over Krauss and Krauss just does what he's told. For money, perhaps.
Before you run away with this idea, Krauss invested in MOON TOURISM. I can totally reasonably see that guy combing the entire island and never finding Kinzo's secret shit.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-05, 20:45   Link #19471
CrystalStarlight95
Miss Kimi
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Residing as the 18th guest of Rokkenjima
Age: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quest 64 View Post
Spoiler for thought about Yoshua:

Spoiler for Durr:
__________________
(Colored over a Higurashi manga scan. Yes, I suck .-.)

"Were you not listening, Kimi-chan? Knox's 7th: It is forbidden for the detective to be the culprit."
CrystalStarlight95 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-05, 20:51   Link #19472
Cao Ni Ma
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Before you run away with this idea, Krauss invested in MOON TOURISM. I can totally reasonably see that guy combing the entire island and never finding Kinzo's secret shit.
Yeah the surveyor was probably a swindler that didn't do anything whatsoever and still charged Krauss a ton of money
Cao Ni Ma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-05, 21:27   Link #19473
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Oops.. sorry for the double post.. but I wanted to bring up the question of just how much Krauss knows. Now.. he isn't often alive long enough to really do anything about this... but anyways...

These things were said of Krauss:
- Krauss was the one who had the island survey done, right?
- Krauss was also the one who had Toraian built...
- Krauss already has one gold bar, supposedly from the banker from years ago, and is the one to convince Natsuhi that the gold is real, if only in secret
- When the siblings were going to call Krauss' bluff about Kinzo, he came back and told Natsuhi that he's going to leave it to Genji.

What I'm getting at is, I wonder how much did he really think he was the head of the family... because I'm starting to think that he might have been doing what Yasu was telling him to do anyways. Of course Natsuhi knows nothing about this...

Because, if Krauss does an island survey and constructs Toraian (which is strangely named after the Kuwadorian pattern) then... he must know about the submarine base and Kuwadorian, right? It seems to me it's Genji (and perhaps the others of the Beatrice faction) who has control over Krauss and Krauss just does what he's told. For money, perhaps.
Since it's stated the Chapel and the guesthouse were constructed at the same time and the chapel was considered really special to Kinzo it's not hard to conclude that Kinzo came up with the name for the Toraian when they initially planned their construction. That would be when Kinzo's still living. So no, Krauss doesn't have to know about the name Kuwadorian at all.
Judoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-05, 21:42   Link #19474
Kirroha
Just... disturbed.
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
What's with the name "Asune"? Why does it have two out of three kanji exactly the same as Asumu?
Kirroha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-05, 22:25   Link #19475
Kylon99
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Before you run away with this idea, Krauss invested in MOON TOURISM. I can totally reasonably see that guy combing the entire island and never finding Kinzo's secret shit.
Yah, I wouldn't trust him to invest 5 of my cents. But that's what I'm getting at. He's just a 'front man' that did waste all of his own money... and I guess Genji and the others were smart enough not to let him touch the real money.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Since it's stated the Chapel and the guesthouse were constructed at the same time and the chapel was considered really special to Kinzo it's not hard to conclude that Kinzo came up with the name for the Toraian when they initially planned their construction. That would be when Kinzo's still living. So no, Krauss doesn't have to know about the name Kuwadorian at all.
Oh yah, I don't mean that he's part of the brains behind Gensawajo's (and Yasu, I guess) plan at all. I mean to say that they're just using him as a front man.

In other words, he didn't get the land survey done; Yasu did. They just used Krauss' name. So for Toraian, for example, they could've just told him, "We're building this; it's called Toraian. Don't ask why."

But the thing is maybe there were a few things they ended up letting him know; like the gold. And the Epitaph Fakery.
Kylon99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-05, 22:35   Link #19476
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirroha View Post
What's with the name "Asune"? Why does it have two out of three kanji exactly the same as Asumu?
Since Asune = Asmodeus = Lust, you do the math.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-05, 23:26   Link #19477
rogerpepitone
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Send a message via Yahoo to rogerpepitone
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Since it's stated the Chapel and the guesthouse were constructed at the same time and the chapel was considered really special to Kinzo it's not hard to conclude that Kinzo came up with the name for the Toraian when they initially planned their construction. That would be when Kinzo's still living. So no, Krauss doesn't have to know about the name Kuwadorian at all.
The chapel was built at the same time as the mansion, not the guesthouse.

The guesthouse was built within the last few years by Krauss.
rogerpepitone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-05, 23:38   Link #19478
Will Wright
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Not that I think Shannon is the culprit, but I gotta interject here because this really bugs me. This Dine rule is a paraphrase, and the actual rule, like the Knox Chinaman rule, is generally about disallowing third rate solutions by having a flat character that should be Beneath Suspicion be the culprit. As Will demonstrated, he pulled out this rule when a servant was being harassed despite having no possible motive, but he didn't invoke it when Shannon/Yasu was being propped up.

The thing is, aside from Gohda, the servants of the Rokkenjima family are not beneath suspicion. They're all complicit in several dirty secrets from several different people and groups, and atleast one of them is demonstrated to be totally out of her mind and emotionally unstable.

So, no, by it's intended meaning, Dine's 7th does not protect any of the Rokkenjima servants except Gohda.
That's not entirely the same situation. Dine specifically named servants because during the Golden Age, some non memorable writers made servants the culprit. Their reasoning for that was that they slipped right past the reader's radar since no one gave a damn about servants back then.

The Van Dine rule does forbid servants from being the culprit, and his novels really give the impression that he considered the servants accessories instead of characters.

He wasn't a jerk who discriminated against them, he just didn't think of servants as potential culprits for a good detective story. Why?

Because it would "too easy of a solution."

Quote:
In Umineko, though, it seems pretty obvious to me that Yasu is good, despite being the one that seems to be causing it all to happen. If Ep7's Tea Party is an indication of the truth, and 'Both Kyrie and Eva has a chance to kill everyone, along with the others' is true, as it says... then maybe in this case the culprit is actually a good guy, and the people they're manipulating end up being the real threat?
Possible, but not very Dine friendly. Van Dine was a fan of the despicable murderer stereotype. His rules imply that strongly "all indignation..." but I wouldn't put that past Ryuukishi.
Will Wright is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-06, 00:04   Link #19479
Kylon99
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
The chapel was built at the same time as the mansion, not the guesthouse.

The guesthouse was built within the last few years by Krauss.
Oops, when I responded to Judoh I misread what he said. But yes, this is what I mean; naming it Toraian seems to me to have something to do with Kuwadorian. Either it came from some old Kinzo plans, or Yasu and the others wanted to name it similar to Kuwadorian or something.

So I doubt Krauss had really that much control over it being built, leading me to think that he is willingly following orders... at this point at least.

For this reason and the others...

It just makes me suspicious as it seems now of the male siblings, Rudolf and Krauss know something is up. How much they know is not a given...

EDIT: Speaking of which, Rudolf and Krauss are also usually the ones to 'die' first... or really die first. So... who knows they know? Besides the people unlikely to have committed murder...
Kylon99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-06, 00:42   Link #19480
rogerpepitone
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Send a message via Yahoo to rogerpepitone
Early deaths:
Kinzo: T1(3)
Krauss: T1(1,2,5)
Natsuhi: T1(2,4,6)
Jessica: T1(5), T2(2,4)
Nanjo: never
Eva: T1(2,4,6), T2(1)
Hideyoshi: T1(2,4), T2(1,5)
George: T1(5), T2(4)
Rudolf: T1(1,2,4)
Kyrie: T1(1,2,6)
Battler: T1(6)
Rosa: T1(1,4,5,6), T2(3)
Maria T1(5,6), T2(3)
Genji: T1(3,4,5)
Shannon: T1(1,3)
Kanon: T1(3), T2(2,6)
Gohda: T1(1,3)
Kumasawa: T1(3)

So Rosa's most likely to die early, dying at the first twilight four times and the second twilight once.


Doubtful deaths:
Episode 1:
First twilight (shed): Battler gets a good look at Rudolf, Kyrie, Krauss, Rosa, Gohda, but never sees Shannon; only Kanon and Hideyoshi do. It's an bad place to fake a crime. Shannon probably isn't there.
Second twilight (guest room): Battler gets a good look at Eva & Hideyoshi. Probably dead.
Fourth twilight (boiler room): Kinzo is definitely dead.
Fifth twilight (boiler room): Kanon is still alive when Battler last sees him.
Sixth, Seventh, Eighth twilight (parlor): Battler gets a good look at Nanjo, Kumasawa, Genji.
Ninth twilight (entrance hall): Battler gets a good look at Natsuhi.
Tenth twilight: Jessica, George, Battler, Maria

Episode 2:
First twilight (chapel): Battler gets a good look at Krauss, Natsuhi, Eva, Hideyoshi, Rudolf, Kryie. real
Second twilight (Jessica's room): Battler gets a good look at Jessica, but Kanon is missing. Kanon is faked, but Jessica?
Servants room: Bodies of Nanjo & Kumasawa disappear. ???
Seventh & Eighth twilight (courtyard): Battler gets a good look at Nanjo & Kumasawa and this is a bad place to fake. real
Fourth, Fifth, Sixth twilights (Natsuhi's room): Battler gets a good look at George, Gohda, Shannon, particularly Shannon. real
Ninth twilight: Nobody
Tenth twilight: Battler, Rosa, Genji, Kinzo, Maria

Episode 3:
First twilight (scattered through mansion): Battler doesn't see any of the victims at the time. (He later sees Shannon, but never sees the others.) ???
Second twilight (garden): Battler gets a good look at Rosa & Maria and this is a bad place to fake. real
Fourth, Fifth, Sixth twilight (mansion): Rudolf, Kyrie, Hideyoshi. Need to check. ???
Seventh, Eighth twilight (arbor): Battler gets a good look at Krauss & Natsuhi, and this is a bad place to fake. real
Ninth twilight (parlor): Battler gets a good look at George and Shannon. real
Ninth twilight (???): Battler is never mentioned as seeing Nanjo. ???
Ninth twilight (parlor): Battler is shot by Eva. real
Tenth twilight: Jessica, Eva

Episode 4:
Second twilight (arbor): Battler gets a good look at George. real
Ninth twilight (shed): Bad place to fake, but Battler can't get a good look at Gohda & Kumasawa. ???
First, tenth twilight (dining room): Battler gets a good look at Natsuhi, Eva, Hideyoshi, Rudolf, Rosa, Maria. real
Various: Battler can't find Kanon, but gets a good look at others. ??? on Kanon, others real
rogerpepitone is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 19:20.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.