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Old 2010-12-06, 00:54   Link #19481
ijriims
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I also think in EP1 that Eva proposing the servants did all the kiling but were not the mastermind pretty mind is the pretty much Ryu07 telling us none of the servants is the mastermind.
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Old 2010-12-06, 05:31   Link #19482
Cao Ni Ma
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The only way I could see Shannon being actually dead in the second game during that twilight would be if Rosa or Genji planted Nats key without the others noticing it thus making it a closed room. I seriously doubt Battler was a reliable witness at the time since he already kneel down and surrendered to the witch. Comedy option, the witch really did tell Battler how every closed room was constructed and now Battler is part of the fake epitaph conspiracy to make the last member accept the witch.
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Old 2010-12-06, 05:48   Link #19483
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I believe this is a minor mistake.
Episode 1:
Second twilight (guest room): Battler gets a good look at Eva but not Hideyoshi. Probably dead.

We do get to find out about the mirror madness business with Shannon in episode 2. Not to mention that Shannon is like Kinzo #2 when she is shown smashing it. And we are shown that Beato has a tattoo on her right leg like Shannon's on her left leg. And we are told that Shannon's other self and Beato are bad with mirrors. And if she looked into a mirror, her tattoo would magically shift to her right leg. And her body is right beside a mirror too in Natsuhi's room.
Seems kind of like major hints of some weird Shannon-Beato-mirror stuff happening. And the brooch-love-magic is a whole 'nother can of worms.

We're also told that Beato is bad with rain and none of the murders were shown to be outside except for the last little tidbit with badass Rosa.

Last edited by Yopee; 2010-12-06 at 06:12.
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Old 2010-12-06, 06:41   Link #19484
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Uh Beato is bad with rain? I don't remember this.

Anyway the only murders that happen under the rain are the ones of Rosa and Maria in EP3.

There are other deaths that supposedly happened outside, but still under the arbor.

The Rosa Musou scene happened towards the end of October 5, and by that time the typhoon has already subsided.


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Originally Posted by Kirroha View Post
What's with the name "Asune"? Why does it have two out of three kanji exactly the same as Asumu?
No clue. Probably just a coincidence. It is impossible that Asune is Asumu anyway, because by that time she was already married with Rudolf and she already had "Battler".
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Old 2010-12-06, 06:55   Link #19485
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Narrator said Beato was bad with rain which is why she didn't follow them outside of the chapel when George, Shannon, and Gohda were looting Natsuhi for her key.

Was it raining in ep4 when the crazy marathon from the dark underground place to the mansion happened?
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Old 2010-12-06, 07:01   Link #19486
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EP3 really is an odd arc in terms of the first 4, you had Rosa break down and tell us of the 19th person and how she was already dead, you have someone supposedly finding where the gold was you have a murder happening in the rain, you have Maria dying off early, you get a the closest thing to an objective view of a killing done by a human.

If Ange really is from EP3s kakera then Eva had the heads ring right? If the events happened the way they did in EP3 that means Eva found the ring sometime in the chapter. Was it with the gold? What if Eva never did find the gold at the time, how did she get it?

(hypothetical)
Did the real culprit (the person that took out Nanjo) have it in their possession and lost it when Eva found out the truth of the events that happened on that day?
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Old 2010-12-06, 07:15   Link #19487
Yopee
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Other odd things with ep3 would be Nanjo's first invitation to Battler to check out corpses.
Natsuhi and Krauss were shown to be taken out without even given the chance to speak to Eva/EVA-Beatrice.
Rudolf, Rosa, and Hideyoshi also misidentified EVA-Beatrice as Eva at first. None of them ever think she is Kinzo/Ushiromiya head but Beatrice instead.
I think maybe solving epitaph means you inherit Beatrice and get gold rather than Kinzo and ring. EVA-Beatrice could have taken one bar of gold with her to convince people that she is Beatrice or something. That's why Natsuhi and Krauss were taken out without a chance for chatter because they already have a bar of gold and wouldn't be convinced so easily.

Shannon gets taken out in the first twilight which was done by Beato. Rest of the twilights were done by EVA-Beatrice. Dunno if that's worth thinking about.
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Old 2010-12-06, 08:33   Link #19488
Cao Ni Ma
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Another thing about EP3, whats up with Rosa giving us info on Maria's name? Why would she, a perceived meek character, decide to go against her father in deciding Maria's name? Was it a whim or does it have to do with other things she mentioned in the episodes? Where the other children names decided by Kinzo as well?
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Old 2010-12-06, 09:05   Link #19489
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It's mentioned because Maria has the Kanji '里' for village in her name. It's an extra hint for the epitaph that Kinzo didn't like. That's why he argued with her about it.

I don't think Rosa is portrayed as being like that all the time. For example she married "a deadbeat" in Kinzo's own words and he probably didn't like that either.

I don't beleive Kinzo's ever decided the names for any of the cousins.
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Old 2010-12-06, 09:13   Link #19490
Cao Ni Ma
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Did the epitaph exist at the time tough? The way Rosa explained the character in the situation makes it look like the epitaph was made after Maria's birth. You can also write the name Maria in different forms in japanese so I doubt its just the way she wrote it that got him mad.

Its less about him getting mad at her choosing Maria as the name and more about disregarding him entirely. The way that scene was portrayed it was like he had a name chosen for her already and Rosa changed it afterwards.
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Old 2010-12-06, 09:16   Link #19491
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Don't know, but that's one explanation we get for why he didn't want Rosa to choose that name.
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Old 2010-12-06, 09:29   Link #19492
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
Doubtful deaths:
Episode 1:
First twilight (shed): Battler gets a good look at Rudolf, Kyrie, Krauss, Rosa, Gohda, but never sees Shannon; only Kanon and Hideyoshi do. It's an bad place to fake a crime. Shannon probably isn't there.
Second twilight (guest room): Battler gets a good look at Eva & Hideyoshi. Probably dead.
Fourth twilight (boiler room): Kinzo is definitely dead.
Fifth twilight (boiler room): Kanon is still alive when Battler last sees him.
Sixth, Seventh, Eighth twilight (parlor): Battler gets a good look at Nanjo, Kumasawa, Genji.
Ninth twilight (entrance hall): Battler gets a good look at Natsuhi.
Tenth twilight: Jessica, George, Battler, Maria

Episode 2:
First twilight (chapel): Battler gets a good look at Krauss, Natsuhi, Eva, Hideyoshi, Rudolf, Kryie. real
Second twilight (Jessica's room): Battler gets a good look at Jessica, but Kanon is missing. Kanon is faked, but Jessica?
Servants room: Bodies of Nanjo & Kumasawa disappear. ???
Seventh & Eighth twilight (courtyard): Battler gets a good look at Nanjo & Kumasawa and this is a bad place to fake. real
Fourth, Fifth, Sixth twilights (Natsuhi's room): Battler gets a good look at George, Gohda, Shannon, particularly Shannon. real
Ninth twilight: Nobody
Tenth twilight: Battler, Rosa, Genji, Kinzo, Maria
[/i]
I wouldn't say anyone gets a good look at the bodies for the first twilights of EP1 or 2, except the adults, who are the first at the scenes and seem unusually keen to keep the cousins away from the "corpses".
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Old 2010-12-06, 09:36   Link #19493
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pikumin View Post
I wouldn't say anyone gets a good look at the bodies for the first twilights of EP1 or 2, except the adults, who are the first at the scenes and seem unusually keen to keep the cousins away from the "corpses".
True. However it didn't seem so "unusual" when we initially believed they were real murders.
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Old 2010-12-06, 11:44   Link #19494
tcaz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
Did the epitaph exist at the time tough?
It says in the Episode 7 Tea Party that the Epitaph's idea had been around since near the very beginning, because of the existence of the chapel mechanism.
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Old 2010-12-06, 11:46   Link #19495
Cao Ni Ma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tcaz View Post
It says in the Episode 7 Tea Party that the Epitaph's idea had been around since near the very beginning, because of the existence of the chapel mechanism.
But was the mechanism made specifically for the epitaph or was it there for another use initially and later used as an element of the epitaph?
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Old 2010-12-06, 11:49   Link #19496
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
But was the mechanism made specifically for the epitaph or was it there for another use initially and later used as an element of the epitaph?
It's said specifically that Kinzo had the idea for the Epitaph since near the beginning because the chapel mechanism was set up.

Basically, the chapel mechanism was only built because of the idea for the Epitaph.

I mean granted it's Bern that says it, but I see no reason to doubt it at all, especially when it makes sense with everything else (including the Maria's name argument).
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Old 2010-12-06, 11:54   Link #19497
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And yet, you must admit that scenes have been hidden from us. After all, Kanon was said to have served Kinzo directly, from the time of his creation. We even hear that the two of them went shooting together a lot in EP6. And yet, EP7 gives us no hint of a casual meeting between the two of them until Kinzo's death. So, from the moment Kanon is created, it is very clear that many scenes are being hidden from us. In which case, we can't say with certainty whether or not the red guts scene was one of them.
I don't think those scenes were hidden from us, since that is information we already know. We known Shannon and Kanon are servants who were given the one-winged eagle, and who serve Kinzo directly. Of course, whether they actually served especially under Kinzo could be subject to doubt, and the whole one-winged eagle thing could have been there just to show that Shannon/Kanon was actually a part of the family.

But well, that aside, it'd make you wonder why Genji and Nanjo would inform Yasu about her injury before she solved the Epitaph. I mean, they definitely could, but it'd make you wonder why they would do such a thing. Genji wanted Yasu to solve the Epitaph; so, I assume he wanted her to be at her best mental condition. Thus, giving her this information before she solved it, would be rather counter-productive, I believe. Not to mention we never saw Yasu spend any time with Genji (other than when she was playing ShKanon) and Nanjo before she became the master.

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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
For your second point, Beatrice is still waiting for Battler, but we know that she was waiting for Battler until the final moment, or Battler's return wouldn't have counted as a motive for the crimes. However, at the exact same time Kanon is created, "Shannon" gives up on loving Battler, and passes that love on to the completely fictional character Beatrice. In other words, it looks like Yasu has decided to put her love for Battler on the back-burner, and to try and ignore it unless Battler does return.
Could we say she waited for him? Whilst I don't think she stopped loving him, I think most of what we've seen has been telling us she gave up on him. (Other than losing hope on Battler, I think this is due to her learning about her body's injury, and her developing the furniture complex.) She also had issues with her relationship with George and Jessica (in fact, from what Jessica told us, George and Shannon have been seeing each other for quite some time already, apparently, for more than a year; yet, from what we saw, Shannon and George's relationship didn't start moving until 1985), but something made her decide to actually move on with one of them. Of course, this something has been constantly suggested to be love - something Battler hadn't given to her.

Something I believe could imply that Yasu had given up on Battler could be Beatrice's behaviour in EP2. We saw Beatrice trying to get Shannon and Kanon on relationships with the people they loved. However, her true purpose was to see those relationships fail. Moreover, you could definitely find bitterness in her words whenever she spoke to Shannon by the end of EP2 - especially when they were speaking about love.

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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
No, this is more or less the opposite of what I'm suggesting. Genji and Nanjo couldn't just stick a fake penis on her. I'm not even sure how such a thing would be physically possible if the goal is to trick the person. They would have to convince her that they'd been forced to give her a sex change in the fall and rip her old one off, so to speak. They could then say that the lack was responsible for whatever feminine features Yasu has, but make the argument that she really is supposed to be a boy, and must appear as such for Kinzo's sake and to be taken seriously as the family head.

You couldn't tell a secret like this to a young girl and expect her to understand, much less keep it a secret to everyone. They couldn't tell her that she was Lion until she was old enough to keep secrets and understand what it would mean to be born a boy.
The only way this would work would be if Yasu suffers of amenorrhoea. I guess this could be possible if we assume her serious injury involved her uterus, and its possible removal. Then, yes, I can guess Genji and Nanjo could deceive her the way you say.

However, it does make you wonder if Genji would go to that extent. Sure, he is Kinzo's confident and most loyal servant, but even he knew that things like what Beatrice 2 went through were not good, and he didn't want Yasu to go through any experience that could make her suffer, just so that Kinzo would have things his way. So, I don't think he'd deceive Yasu in this fashion, since it'd be basically repeating these sort of mistakes. Sure, it's not the same thing as what Beatrice 2 went through, but he'd be basically making use of Yasu's life for Kinzo's sake.

It'd also makes you wonder if Kumasawa would allow them to deceive Yasu this way. Even if we assume Nanjo agreed to do it for the money, I highly doubt Kumasawa would simply agree to do this, just to comply with Kinzo's chauvinism. I highly doubt she'd do this as a woman, and as the figure that is the closest that Yasu has as a mother. I'm also fairly positive Kumasawa knows Yasu's real sex.

Of course, the last few points are my own impressions and opinions. So, I guess your theory still stands.

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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
For the first half, I think it's because Kinzo wanted to apologize to Beatrice herself, not just her child. It's clear that he recognizes them as two completely separate people, if you look closely at the moment he starts talking to "Lion" directly. Of course, Kinzo knows that Shannon was Yasu, and has been dressing up as a girl for a long time, but he also knows that Kanon is Shannon. So, Yasu gets to act the part of the woman Kinzo wanted to apologize to, and also to play the part of the son Kinzo wants to leave everything to, in the hopes that 'giving up everything Beatrice gave me' might be able to atone for his terrible sins.
I think you have a point. However, it makes you wonder why would Kinzo point out Yasu's striking resemblance with the previous Beatrices, if he thought Lion was a boy, unless he expected his child to be this androgynous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
And that leads us to your second point. If Genji did present Lion to Kinzo, Kinzo would almost certainly want to make Lion the next head. After all, he's apparently been ranting about giving everything back to Beatrice for some time. Personally, I don't think it likely that Genji would work so hard to let Kinzo die in peace, and then ignore Kinzo's last request, which is probably the only request he even put in his will.
But this is assuming Genji thought Kinzo's last request couldn't be fulfilled if Lion was a girl. We know Kinzo is a chauvinist (although, if his characterisation in EP4 is somewhat reliable, then he had no problems with Maria as the next head), but this is Beatrice's child we're talking about. She's not like the other siblings we know Kinzo couldn't even care less about, but the daughter of his... daughter, and the granddaughter of Beatrice Castiglioni. These three people are the most important things to him. So, I don't think he'd care if Lion was a girl, and I'm sure Genji would probably have thought the same thing. But well, once again, I've come down to how I have interpreted things myself.
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Old 2010-12-06, 12:44   Link #19498
musouka
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Kinzo might say that Yasu resembles her mother and grandmother, but Yasu herself seems to disagree, especially in regards to wearing the dress associated with Beatrice. I didn't really get the sense of extreme emphasis. If Yasu looks so much like her mother, Kinzo would have noticed her before she had already been living there eight or so years.

Also, there has never been an issue with a woman being next in line for the headship when it comes to the grandkids. Jessica is next in line even though George is the first male grandchild. Therefore I don't see the point in, if Lion is a woman, crossdressing. Especially being raised by someone as traditional and hidebound as Natsuhi, who places extreme emphasis on Jessica being feminine.
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Old 2010-12-06, 12:59   Link #19499
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Spoiler for crazy size, sorry:
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Old 2010-12-06, 13:15   Link #19500
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Oh, forgot to mention something.

According to the anime, George's visit to Rokkenjima that first got Shannon interested in him took place in October 1984. Kinzo's death is said to be 11/29 of that year. This might explain Kanon's comment about "you and George seem to be getting along pretty well lately".

However, we're also told that Shannon rejected the thought of falling in love with George at this time. She was already calling herself furniture, and saying that she didn't have the right to love humans. But the red guts scene is apparently the time that Yasu first started calling herself furniture, and first learned that she had "a body that cannot love".

In other words, it really looks like the red guts scene happened some time before "the epitaph was solved", not after.
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