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Old 2010-12-06, 13:27   Link #19501
CrystalStarlight95
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I've only read the 50% patch of EP7, but lemme ask something...

All of you guys are saying that Nanjo and Genji are or have convinced Yasu that she is a boy. Then they make that "boy" dress up as a girl and meet Kinzo. But why the heck would they tell her she's a boy? The only reason I can think of is them wanting to at least protect Yasu in case Kinzo was going to repeat his sin again..

But then, I'm sure if they told Kinzo his daughter/granddaughter was a boy, I'm sure he wouldn't do anything drastic. So why dress him up as a girl then? Is the whole "boy" thing a backup plan and they were gonna have Yasu stay as a girl, just when Kinzo goes all "BEATRICE!!" Genji and Nanjo go, "Whoops, sorry, Kinzo, he's a boy! See?"

Just a tad confusing for me...
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Old 2010-12-06, 13:41   Link #19502
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Nothing is ever said clearly one way or another about Yasu's gender. We just know that Nanjo and Genji drop a huge bombshell on her at one point that has her in hysterics and ends with her calling herself furniture and cursing her inability to love.

If there is something unusual about Yasu's gender, Kinzo himself knows about it. He presented Lion to Natsuhi as a boy baby, since that's what's stuck in Natsuhi's head all these years, but he doesn't evidence shock over seeing his child in a dress. Likewise, Lion doesn't seem shocked that his alternate universe self was seemingly raised as a woman.
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Old 2010-12-06, 13:47   Link #19503
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Originally Posted by witchfan View Post
I support this. For example, in the first episode, I distantly recall Eva unconcernedly challenging Battler to solve the mystery, before retiring with Hideyoshi to her room (there's a murderer about, who does that?!). My memory might be a little off, though (it's been three? years since I read it). The general acted murder mystery pattern was probably broken in the 4th, and perhaps 3rd, episodes, although I do believe at least some adults kept some act going (Kyrie in the 4th, for example).
The only problem with the "script" is there are clear points where it ought to be derailed. Kinzo's body being burned is one of those. You can't fake the incineration of a corpse. The moment somebody sees his body burning, the script should be out the window.

Unless it's part of the script. But that's just creepy.
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Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
But Rudolf really tried hard to get Battler back, right?

Not so in Lion's world.
Why would Rudolf's behavior be any different in Lion's world? Assume for the moment that no one but Rudolf influenced Rudolf's attempts to get Battler back, as I see no evidence to suggest otherwise. Yet in Lion's world it doesn't work, and in Yasu's world it does.

Just saying.
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Not that I think Shannon is the culprit, but I gotta interject here because this really bugs me. This Dine rule is a paraphrase, and the actual rule, like the Knox Chinaman rule, is generally about disallowing third rate solutions by having a flat character that should be Beneath Suspicion be the culprit. As Will demonstrated, he pulled out this rule when a servant was being harassed despite having no possible motive, but he didn't invoke it when Shannon/Yasu was being propped up.

The thing is, aside from Gohda, the servants of the Rokkenjima family are not beneath suspicion. They're all complicit in several dirty secrets from several different people and groups, and atleast one of them is demonstrated to be totally out of her mind and emotionally unstable.

So, no, by it's intended meaning, Dine's 7th does not protect any of the Rokkenjima servants except Gohda.
The problem here is that Shannon and Kanon kind of are flat characters who probably should be beneath suspicion. Whether Yasu should or shouldn't is irrelevant to ep1-4. If the Servant Rule applies to anyone it should apply to Gohda first, Shannon and Kanon second, then be looked at suspiciously in the case of Genji/Kumasawa/Nanjo.

To say nothing of the eye-rolling B.S. of opening an episode with "a servant can't do it!" and then turn around and say "BUT THE SERVANT WASN'T REALLY A SERVANT, LOL." Even though the non-servant servant was in fact a servant. I mean yes, one can say the rule doesn't "technically" mean that, but Ryukishi does not go into the rule deep enough that his lay audience should realize that, so it really is cheating.
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Originally Posted by tcaz View Post
It's said specifically that Kinzo had the idea for the Epitaph since near the beginning because the chapel mechanism was set up.

Basically, the chapel mechanism was only built because of the idea for the Epitaph.

I mean granted it's Bern that says it, but I see no reason to doubt it at all, especially when it makes sense with everything else (including the Maria's name argument).
I don't think it makes any sense. By the time the chapel was built, at best, Beatrice-2 is a very young and presumably healthy girl. What benefit does Kinzo gain from brainstorming a complicated trigger mechanism that requires an entire building to set up? It can't be an inheritance thing, because there's no real problem with that if indeed Beatrice-2 is his daughter and he loves her more than he loves his real kids. If he intends to pass the headship down through this secondary line, then from the moment Beatrice-2 is born, she is the heir in his mind. Unless he for some strange reason does not think this. But at that point you go through some mental gymnastics just to explain the mechanism. Was Beatrice-2 intended to find the solution herself to prove something to him? Did he plan to give his real family a fair shake? When was the epitaph actually finalized and when was it meant to be put on display? When did he have the portrait made?

It's going to a whole lot of trouble for... what, exactly? He can't have known what would happen 30 years down the line. We have to look at his potential thought process in the early 50s, and at that point I honestly can't see any real purpose to it. It hardly makes sense as just a secret gold vault since it takes a ladder to manipulate and there's clearly an alternate entrance to the gold room, so Kinzo and Genji don't need to do it to actually get there. It also means one could find the gold without solving the epitaph.
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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
This is one of the things that got me confused about BATTLER in episode 6, I seriously doubt he anticipated Erika not using the detective authority and Im pretty he knew that she would thoroughly check the corpses with it seeing as he eliminated all tape on the island and "killed" most of the suspects from the previous games. The game was odd in it self because there was a lot of foreshadowing of the murderer killing the detective in that arc and it did start earlier than usual.

Im pretty sure that the characters where dead in EP5 as well, but since Erika didn't check the corpses Lambda was able to bring them back to life and move them.
He probably didn't. I think it was rather obviously a ploy on his part. Of course, how much of ep6 happened at all without Battler pulling the strings is a question of some fierce debate here.
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Old 2010-12-06, 14:23   Link #19504
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@Renall:
I think it a bit unlikely that Kinzo ever thought of Beatrice 2 as his heir. We see how he treats a possible heir in EP7. Lion is trained from a young age and given all sorts of real-life experiences, so that he/she'll be more than ready to lead by the time the headship is passed on.

But Kinzo apparently just locked Beatrice 2 away. Rosa's story might be a lie, but if even part of it is true, Beatrice 2 was scared to death of wolves and didn't know what a zoo was. How could a person who's already like that as an adult ever take over a multi-million dollar family business? Kinzo probably wanted to let her live in luxury, but unless he was very naive (or Rosa was lying, which is very possible), he never planned for her to be the family head.
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Old 2010-12-06, 14:35   Link #19505
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What motive would Rosa have to lie about that event? Maybe she altered some parts of it, but having her outright just make it up is unlikely.
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Old 2010-12-06, 15:02   Link #19506
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
@Renall:
I think it a bit unlikely that Kinzo ever thought of Beatrice 2 as his heir. We see how he treats a possible heir in EP7. Lion is trained from a young age and given all sorts of real-life experiences, so that he/she'll be more than ready to lead by the time the headship is passed on.

But Kinzo apparently just locked Beatrice 2 away. Rosa's story might be a lie, but if even part of it is true, Beatrice 2 was scared to death of wolves and didn't know what a zoo was. How could a person who's already like that as an adult ever take over a multi-million dollar family business? Kinzo probably wanted to let her live in luxury, but unless he was very naive (or Rosa was lying, which is very possible), he never planned for her to be the family head.
That makes it even more bizarre then to bother with building the chapel like that, as his alleged "preferred" heir doesn't even exist yet. This is something that had to have been built into the chapel's design from the moment it was constructed. It would show that Kinzo is planning something from the early 50s.

But... planning what? The way the epitaph is allegedly actually used in ep7 doesn't make any sense if it was all put into place 30 years before it was actually needed. And if the epitaph riddle wasn't what Kinzo intended the chapel device to be used for, what the heck did he want to do with it?
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Old 2010-12-06, 15:53   Link #19507
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It's possible it was simply set up so that someone could find the gold should he and the other confidants die, and then it was later repurposed for inheritance.
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Old 2010-12-06, 15:53   Link #19508
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
That makes it even more bizarre then to bother with building the chapel like that, as his alleged "preferred" heir doesn't even exist yet. This is something that had to have been built into the chapel's design from the moment it was constructed. It would show that Kinzo is planning something from the early 50s.

But... planning what? The way the epitaph is allegedly actually used in ep7 doesn't make any sense if it was all put into place 30 years before it was actually needed. And if the epitaph riddle wasn't what Kinzo intended the chapel device to be used for, what the heck did he want to do with it?
It is a problem, that. Now that I think about it, the pieces seem to fit together one way in particular, if we make a few assumptions. It definitely isn't pretty though.

Let's say that Kinzo did set up the chapel to decide his heir. And, let's assume that he didn't count Beatrice 2 as an heir because she was a woman (and might not even have been his daughter). Finally, it's probably safe to assume that Beatrice 1 didn't have any other children with him.

If that's the case, the only way he could get an heir would be if Beatrice 2 had a son. You probably see where this is going. Part of him may have thought of Beatrice 2 as Beatrice 1 reborn, but he also wanted to have the successor come from Beatrice's line, not his wife's.

So, his second reason for keeping Beatrice 2 locked up was to have her create a male heir for him. He probably couldn't have predicted that Natsuhi would have trouble bearing a child, so he needed some other way to let a possible Beatrice 2's son become the head. The simple fact that he hid Lion's parentage proves that he wasn't willing to tell the family about Beatrice 2. So he couldn't just say that Lion was his grandson.

According to Genji in EP7, Kinzo's will simply says that the one who solves the epitaph will gain the headship. If Kinzo doesn't openly choose a relative, he needs a good excuse for choosing someone else. If he wants, he can just tell Lion the epitaph's answer when the time comes. So, as long as Lion was a person who spent time on the island, he doesn't need to tell any more of Lion's past than that.

If this is true... In a way, it might have felt like some sort of divine punishment to Kinzo. He spends so much time and effort trying to make an heir, and just when he thinks he's got the perfect solution with Natsuhi, the child and the mother both die at the same time. Now that he has nothing left, he can only brood for years and years about his sin. It's no surprise that he eventually wanted nothing more from life than to apologize to Beatrice and her child for what he did.
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Old 2010-12-06, 16:10   Link #19509
CrystalStarlight95
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Now there is a chapel mechanism. Boy, have I missed alot.

Gimme a quick recap, all I know is it's something on the chapel door, right? And that if you do the up, down, right, left thingy to it, does another door open rather than the door you're activating it on? You guys are making it sound very positive, so has there been confirmation its real?
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Old 2010-12-06, 16:23   Link #19510
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It's a device built into the inscription over the door of the chapel, allegedly. Proper manipulation of the device opens a descending passageway along the rear perimeter of the chapel (I believe it's around the back, anyway, I forget specifically). A few other things change (the lions) to indicate that the mechanism worked.

The point is, it's a somewhat cumbersome device, so it can't just be Kinzo's method for entering and leaving his gold storage room because there's no way his paranoid wife wouldn't have eventually found him standing on a ladder outside the chapel. Furthermore, according to ep7, there exists a way into the room that isn't dependent on the chapel mechanism.

Mind you, all of this could be B.S. if ep7 is, but the way it's presented certainly makes us want to believe very strongly that it's the epitaph solution.

@chronotrig: The problem there is in the 1950s he doesn't know if Beatrice will be found out, or if one of his kids will turn out not to disappoint him. Perhaps one becomes a business genius and thus an obvious choice of Ushiromiya heir; his love for Beatrice needn't change, he can always will ownership of the money to her line in secret, and be happy that way.

The entire notion of the epitaph solution being used to determine who should be heir to the family and the gold (remember, the two don't really need to be linked) is so far removed from what Kinzo would have been thinking about in the early 50s. Even if he was planning some kind of long-term incest plan, that makes a lot of assumptions about Beatrice-2 that would be tough to know so far in advance.

Plus, if Natsuhi has no difficulty bearing a child (for argument's sake, a male) in the late 50s/early 60s, there is a clear visible heirship descent through Krauss's family and I doubt very strongly that Krauss is going to roll over for his dad's secret family. Lion only works because he slips so perfectly into the family just ahead of Jessica.

So really, unless you want to get even deeper into conspiracies like "Kinzo made sure Natsuhi was infertile through drugs until his preferred heir was born, then let her off the drugs so she could have Jessica," I don't see how he could possibly be chessmastering all of this into place so perfectly that a chapel he built thirty years before will oh-so-conveniently play a role he can't have envisioned it would play.

Which seems to be what Lion's world is suggesting; "Oh, Kinzo had the epitaph ready to go at any time somebody questioned the headship, he'd just toss that down and let whoever solve it, even though Lion was absolutely and without question the heir he wanted." Does that make the slightest bit of sense?
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Old 2010-12-06, 16:28   Link #19511
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
In other words, it really looks like the red guts scene happened some time before "the epitaph was solved", not after.
Or, Shannon was just falling in love with George by 1984, but then Yasu learned about whatever is wrong with her body and developed the furniture complex and thus Shannon began holding back, but she managed to overcome it later due to love, or whatever.
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Old 2010-12-06, 16:35   Link #19512
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My basic thesis would be:
  • If Kinzo intended a preferred heir through Beatrice's lineage from before Lion was born, he has no reason to create a chapel that will be used as a riddle.
  • If Kinzo creates a chapel that will be used as a riddle, he intends to do so for some purpose.
  • If the purpose of the chapel is to determine an heir, Kinzo intended to leave succession to the chapel as early as 1950, when Lion did not even remotely exist.
  • If Kinzo decided to change his mind and make Lion his preferred heir after the 1950s, he has no reason to ever reveal the epitaph riddle.
But according to Bernkastel, he does reveal the riddle and gives the adults the chance to solve it. This is at odds with his apparent logic of putting Lion in place (and at odds with everyone else's tacit acceptance of it up to this point when they know full well who Lion's real mother is).

Therefore, I would argue one of the following must be true:
  • The idea that Kinzo would present the epitaph, leading to the massacre, cannot possibly be true if Lion exists.
  • Lion cannot possibly exist, and his story and the consequences of it are a fantasy in their entirety, even as a speculative exercise. That is, they not only aren't what happened, they aren't even something which could have happened.
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Old 2010-12-06, 16:56   Link #19513
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Bern already tells you why Kinzo revealed the riddle. It was because of Kinzo's pride.
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Old 2010-12-06, 17:04   Link #19514
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
@chronotrig: The problem there is in the 1950s he doesn't know if Beatrice will be found out, or if one of his kids will turn out not to disappoint him. Perhaps one becomes a business genius and thus an obvious choice of Ushiromiya heir; his love for Beatrice needn't change, he can always will ownership of the money to her line in secret, and be happy that way.
These are good reasons, but only if we assume that Kinzo doesn't particularly care about Beatrice's descendants carrying on the Ushiromiya line. Beatrice was his way of escaping the old Ushiromiya family and replacing it with his own legend.

In other words, I don't think he's looking for a Beatrice-line successor because he thinks they'll be better at business than his kids. I think there's a good argument to be made that that isn't even a factor in his calculations. Of course, he wants to train the successor as well as possible, but that is only of secondary importance.

Quote:
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The entire notion of the epitaph solution being used to determine who should be heir to the family and the gold (remember, the two don't really need to be linked) is so far removed from what Kinzo would have been thinking about in the early 50s. Even if he was planning some kind of long-term incest plan, that makes a lot of assumptions about Beatrice-2 that would be tough to know so far in advance.
Where do we have evidence that Kinzo wasn't thinking about the succession in the early 50's? For all we know, he might have wanted to make Beatrice 2 the head, if she had been born a boy. If he was thinking about the headship at that time, and wanted a Beatrice descendant to be the head, then he would have had to start planning that far back.

And, if the Beatrice 2 red guts scene is true, things didn't go as Kinzo planned. Beatrice 2 only thought of him as a Father, and didn't want to go any further than that. Yes, Kinzo took a long-term risk, but he's been taking risks all his life. Fortunately, he's clever enough that most of his risks pay off.

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Plus, if Natsuhi has no difficulty bearing a child (for argument's sake, a male) in the late 50s/early 60s, there is a clear visible heirship descent through Krauss's family and I doubt very strongly that Krauss is going to roll over for his dad's secret family. Lion only works because he slips so perfectly into the family just ahead of Jessica.

So really, unless you want to get even deeper into conspiracies like "Kinzo made sure Natsuhi was infertile through drugs until his preferred heir was born, then let her off the drugs so she could have Jessica," I don't see how he could possibly be chessmastering all of this into place so perfectly that a chapel he built thirty years before will oh-so-conveniently play a role he can't have envisioned it would play.
Yes, Lion would have worked if Kinzo had managed to slip him in before Jessica. But as I said, that couldn't have been his first plan if the chapel story is true. In Lion's world in EP7, he does use the riddle at the end (or so Bern tells us), but only because he couldn't convince the relatives. And he didn't use the riddle in the normal way either, but just told everyone to solve it before the day was out.

In other words, in the world where Lion survives, the chapel and the epitaph aren't really needed. He got lucky with Natsuhi and managed to use her as a shortcut. But in Yasu's world, this lucky plan B didn't play out. This is good, because we never hear about this plan B until the core arcs.

His original plan was probably something similar to what happened in Yasu's world. He told Natsuhi that Lion was a Fukuin kid, so he probably planned to raise Lion as a Fukuin kid from the beginning. Of course, he couldn't trust a kid to keep his secret, so he probably wouldn't tell Lion the truth until he reached a certain age. We know Kinzo has a boyish mind, and this is a classic King Arthur story. The epitaph is the sword in the stone.

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Which seems to be what Lion's world is suggesting; "Oh, Kinzo had the epitaph ready to go at any time somebody questioned the headship, he'd just toss that down and let whoever solve it, even though Lion was absolutely and without question the heir he wanted." Does that make the slightest bit of sense?
I think it likely that he planned to tell Lion the answer, or at least give him enough hints to make sure he solved it first.
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Old 2010-12-06, 17:05   Link #19515
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Kinzo isn't that stupid (and even in instances where he might otherwise be, I don't think he's that stupid on this particular matter). Moreover, it's out of character for everyone else. Bern is talking nonsense.

EDIT: Also, why make the riddle something his kids could seemingly easily solve (when they actually sit down to do it) if he just wants to cheat and ensure Lion wins either way? Again, "pride" is not a good enough answer. Kinzo's risks are calculated. He would not be as powerful as he is if he were that impulsive.
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Old 2010-12-06, 17:18   Link #19516
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Kinzo isn't that stupid (and even in instances where he might otherwise be, I don't think he's that stupid on this particular matter). Moreover, it's out of character for everyone else. Bern is talking nonsense.

EDIT: Also, why make the riddle something his kids could seemingly easily solve (when they actually sit down to do it) if he just wants to cheat and ensure Lion wins either way? Again, "pride" is not a good enough answer. Kinzo's risks are calculated. He would not be as powerful as he is if he were that impulsive.
Don't forget that Kinzo thinks of all his children as idiots. You take that to mean that he's seen how they act and judges them fairly, but that's not necessarily true. If you want to despise someone, it's very easy to find fault with everything they do or say and think that they're much less intelligent than you give them credit for. And besides, every one of his kids actually has managed to make a mess of the excellent start he's given them. Kinzo took nothing and made a fortune of it, and his kids took a fortune and are on the point of squandering it.

He has enough reason to resent them just because of who their mother was. Add on his contempt over what they've made of their lives so far. Emotions are powerful. Even smart people can fall prey to them.

One more point. In Yasu's world, the siblings were unable to solve the epitaph for well over a year, even though they all tried very hard separately. If 1984-6 was the time he or Genji intended to have Lion "solve" the epitaph, then his measure of his children was pretty darn good. Regardless of the reason, the siblings don't solve the epitaph until the last second.

Of course, he wanted to make it nearly solvable for them. If it was something so obscure that no one could ever solve it, then Lion coming up with the solution would look very suspicious, and the other family members would feel cheated. The sword in the stone works best if it looks like everyone was an inch away from solving it when Lion comes around and finds the answer first.
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Old 2010-12-06, 17:20   Link #19517
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Sorry for going a bit off the flow of theories here but,

After reading a bit more on EP7, what did Will mean when Ange sat to Jessica's right? Does this imply Ange is higher ranked than her? Or one bit lower?
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Old 2010-12-06, 17:23   Link #19518
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Don't forget that Kinzo thinks of all his children as idiots. You take that to mean that he's seen how they act and judges them fairly, but that's not necessarily true. If you want to despise someone, it's very easy to find fault with everything they do or say and think that they're much less intelligent than you give them credit for. And besides, every one of his kids actually has managed to make a mess of the excellent start he's given them. Kinzo took nothing and made a fortune of it, and his kids took a fortune and are on the point of squandering it.
Oh yes, the "nothing" he started with, ten tons of Italian gold that got dropped in his lap along with an attractive woman who was the love of his life and gave him the motive he needed to finally be more than a mere puppet - though he was already the Ushiromiya family head at the time.

Truly, Kinzo began from nothing.
Quote:
He has enough reason to resent them just because of who their mother was. Add on his contempt over what they've made of their lives so far. Emotions are powerful. Even smart people can fall prey to them.
Yet he barely cared about them all that much before meeting Beatrice. Why does he suddenly swing around to loathing them outright? His "underestimation" of his children is also entirely the context of scenes in which Kinzo cannot possibly exist (his ep2 rant, the ep4 conference scene). He may not have thought them quite as stupid as he portrays them, and moreover the story itself may portray them as dumber than they are (especially Krauss).
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One more point. In Yasu's world, the siblings were unable to solve the epitaph for well over a year, even though they all tried very hard separately. If 1984-6 was the time he or Genji intended to have Lion "solve" the epitaph, then his measure of his children was pretty darn good. Regardless of the reason, the siblings don't solve the epitaph until the last second.

Of course, he wanted to make it nearly solvable for them. If it was something so obscure that no one could ever solve it, then Lion coming up with the solution would look very suspicious, and the other family members would feel cheated. The sword in the stone works best if it looks like everyone was an inch away from solving it when Lion comes around and finds the answer first.
Then how did they solve it almost immediately in Lion's world? It makes no sense. They're suddenly not okay with an arrangement that was not really protested up to this point, then it all randomly explodes, and to calm everyone down Kinzo takes a ridiculous risk when he could just shout down every single one of his children as he is reputed to have been easily able to do? It's absurd.

And Lion is at a considerable disadvantage in solving the epitaph. If we go by Eva's solving process in ep3, she has a much better chance than Yasu does without cheating. Genji makes sure Yasu wins. Does Lion even know the hint that Yasu gets?
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Battler Solves The Logic Error
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Old 2010-12-06, 17:24   Link #19519
Klashikari
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Originally Posted by Ronove View Post
Sorry for going a bit off the flow of theories here but,

After reading a bit more on EP7, what did Will mean when Ange sat to Jessica's right? Does this imply Ange is higher ranked than her? Or one bit lower?
Will was mentioning something was odd with the sitting order: Jessica told the order she would get if Lion doesn't exist, hence why she was left puzzled when she put a second thought.
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Old 2010-12-06, 17:31   Link #19520
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Will was mentioning something was odd with the sitting order: Jessica told the order she would get if Lion doesn't exist, hence why she was left puzzled when she put a second thought.
Oh. Thank you. Hmm... this is an odd world then.

Overall, does it give any beneficial clues?
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