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Old 2009-08-26, 19:44   Link #1941
Counter Arts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
1) Rosa was confirmed dead for Episode 1.
2) The shed is locked with a padlock. It is absolutely impossible, realistically speaking for someone to open the shed from the inside.
3) Rosa could absolutely not be able to kill George, Shannon and Gohda, let alone Kumasawa and Nanjo, nor Jessica and Kanon.
Spoiler for Response to quote:
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Old 2009-08-26, 21:02   Link #1942
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Given that the wire cutters were moved in episode 1 or 4, I think somebody cut the lock to the shed in episode 1.

Something else that bothers me: Why was Kanon's body missing in ep. 2? The killer was seemingly trying to create the appearance of the epitaph, so why not have two victims there?
1) Kanon = Shannon (always), and "Kanon died in this room" is a Jedi truth.
2) Kanon = Shannon, as the real Kanon died in Jessica's room before everyone arrived, and Shannon's been covering it up.
3) Kanon died in a manner that wouldn't work with the epitaph, so the killer had to make a hasty change of plans.
4) Somebody else removed Kanon's body for unknown reasons (to confuse the killer?)

Also, in the anime, I notice that there was a single pool of blood for Jessica; if Kanon also died there, he didn't leave any blood behind. (It's not explicitly mentioned in the SN, but if there were any other blood, I think somebody would have mentioned it.)
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Old 2009-08-27, 02:01   Link #1943
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Originally Posted by Counter Arts View Post
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1) Confirmed that the unidentified corpses are really people the survivors had guessed. I seriously cannot see a realistic explanation for people to be alive with their face CAVED in (if only the skin was peeled off, ok. but a big hole? huh no). Since it has to be a corpse, it cannot be someone's else due to the red.
2) And how can she do that when Natsuhi has the key on her?
3) I'm talking about Episode 2 for the third point. Like I said: there is no way for Rosa to kill them, considering her whereabouts.
And I seriously doubt Gohda would let himself killed out of duty, unlike the one winged eagle servants.
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Old 2009-08-27, 03:57   Link #1944
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This is kind of off topic but:
I swear at one point I saw a (translated) screenshot of umineko that went something like this:
Quote:
<Battler> Repeat it: Beatrice does not love Battler.
<Beatrice> I... refuse.
Was I dreaming? I just finished EP4 and nothing of the sort popped up. Yet I swear I saw something like that before (before C76/EP5 came out), can't remember where though...
I hate the feeling when you're expecting something and it doesn't happen.
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Old 2009-08-27, 04:15   Link #1945
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Huh, that never happened, not even as a joke from us, that is.
Probably some random fanmade screenshot.
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Old 2009-08-27, 04:38   Link #1946
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Originally Posted by porchoky View Post
This is kind of off topic but:
I swear at one point I saw a (translated) screenshot of umineko that went something like this:


Was I dreaming? I just finished EP4 and nothing of the sort popped up. Yet I swear I saw something like that before (before C76/EP5 came out), can't remember where though...
I hate the feeling when you're expecting something and it doesn't happen.
It's from fan-made 4koma.
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Old 2009-08-27, 12:28   Link #1947
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Ok, this is just my opinion but I think if we want this to be truly a masterpiece then there are only two possible solutions.

100% Mystery OR 100% Fantasy

There is no in-between.

http://witch-hunt.com/hist.html

I know it's there on witch-hunt but few people actually read the OFFICIAL introduction to the game. This is very significant.

Why? Because the author is challenging us to solve this case or consider it to actually be the work of witches. Already at the start, before even starting the game there is only 2 possible solutions.

I don't know why people are coming up with, "There's witches, but the case is solvable."

Its either one or the other people. If this story is leaning towards a solution that has 70% mystery and 30% fantasy then I'm going to be dropping this game right now(hopefully its not ). It just doesn't make sense as an author to give us, "Heres option A and B but then, oh sorry the answer is actually option C, but I didn't give that at the start, you'll find out option C by actually reading all my 7 episodes of my games." It's bad marketing IMHO.

Here's some examples.

Spoiler for Death Note spoilers:


Another example

Spoiler for Spoilers for Metal Gear Solid 2:
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Old 2009-08-27, 12:32   Link #1948
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
1) Confirmed that the unidentified corpses are really people the survivors had guessed. I seriously cannot see a realistic explanation for people to be alive with their face CAVED in (if only the skin was peeled off, ok. but a big hole? huh no). Since it has to be a corpse, it cannot be someone's else due to the red.
2) And how can she do that when Natsuhi has the key on her?
3) I'm talking about Episode 2 for the third point. Like I said: there is no way for Rosa to kill them, considering her whereabouts.
And I seriously doubt Gohda would let himself killed out of duty, unlike the one winged eagle servants.
For #1 everyone was checking their own parents/people they loved and wasn't checking closely Rosa since Maria would be the one if she cared. They did a trick where they can make a false head with a face caved in and the real head with a black cloth to hide in the darkness.

For #3 I'm trying to retrace Rosa's steps. After the first twilight Shannon, Genji and Rosa came back, Rosa had a gun. They were unaccounted for some time.

Genji had a key to open the door to Jessica's room. If Genji and/or Shannon got in on the killing of Jessica then it's possible.

I'll be checking up on the remaining deaths.
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Old 2009-08-27, 12:34   Link #1949
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Quote:
Originally Posted by porchoky View Post
This is kind of off topic but:
I swear at one point I saw a (translated) screenshot of umineko that went something like this:


Was I dreaming? I just finished EP4 and nothing of the sort popped up. Yet I swear I saw something like that before (before C76/EP5 came out), can't remember where though...
I hate the feeling when you're expecting something and it doesn't happen.
Don't you mean this?

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Old 2009-08-27, 12:38   Link #1950
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Originally Posted by ChaosDimension View Post
Its either one or the other people. If this story is leaning towards a solution that has 70% mystery and 30% fantasy then I'm going to be dropping this game right now(hopefully its not ). It just doesn't make sense as an author to give us, "Heres option A and B but then, oh sorry the answer is actually option C, but I didn't give that at the start, you'll find out option C by actually reading all my 7 episodes of my games." It's bad marketing IMHO.
If there is no witch, you shouldn't even count the red truth.
People do not claim witches exist in the said instances, but they do exist for sake of the plot. Otherwise, you would have a basic locked island murder mystery, and that's it.

The point is: the main mystery obviously involves human only, but the concept of the story forces the readers to acknowledge the role of the witches, regarding the resolution of the story.
Therefore, there is no mixed up solution: the culprit is human, the meta world is filled with supernatural being. There is no need to mix both, but there is a need to acknowledge both points.

Please do not interpret people's stance as a generality, it is rather rude and inconsistent. No offense, but that's like "I know better than you" smartass attitude.
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Old 2009-08-27, 13:03   Link #1951
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Originally Posted by ChaosDimension View Post
Its either one or the other people. If this story is leaning towards a solution that has 70% mystery and 30% fantasy then I'm going to be dropping this game right now(hopefully its not ). It just doesn't make sense as an author to give us, "Heres option A and B but then, oh sorry the answer is actually option C, but I didn't give that at the start, you'll find out option C by actually reading all my 7 episodes of my games." It's bad marketing IMHO.
Well, this might just be a "false clue" or misdirection. A mystery without misdirection is almost never interesting. In fact, I'd call it even worse marketing to mention the actual solution's form in the game opening.

If you're expecting Ryuukishi to tell you all the possibilities for answers at the beginning, how could he possibly make a twist in a direction people didn't foresee?
Yes, Umineko is a mystery (though not a classic mystery) and large parts of it *should* be solvable, but he has to stretch the story over a 4 year period while games are getting released.
If people actually figure out the solutions halfway through, the series becomes an outright failure.

In short, Ryuukishi is banking on Higurashi fans. If you've read all of Higurashi, then you know to expect option C when dealing with Ryuukishi. The puzzle is figuring out an option C that is consistant.
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Old 2009-08-27, 13:04   Link #1952
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
If there is no witch, you shouldn't even count the red truth.
People do not claim witches exist in the said instances, but they do exist for sake of the plot. Otherwise, you would have a basic locked island murder mystery, and that's it.

The point is: the main mystery is obviously human, but the concept of the story forces the readers to acknowledge the role of the witches, regarding the resolution of the story.
Therefore, there is no brewed solution.

Please do not interpret people's stance as a generality, it is rather rude and inconsistent.
Like I said it is only my opinion. Everybody has a different interpretation of the red truth. Saying just because witches don't exist that we should discount the red entirely. Remember Battler can use it too as well as various other people. In the author's perspective it is merely a plot device. If we didn't have the red truth, the possibilities are limitless. Ryukishi is using the red so we stay on track.

"People do not claim witches exist in the said instances, but they do exist for sake of the plot."

Please elaborate on this, as that's stating that we shouldn't have a "anti-fantasy" stance regarding the witches. I believe that the witches can be explained and it'll all make sense.

Once again, I am just referencing the introductory page from the game. He is stating that there are two possible solutions. Even in interviews Ryukishi states Anti Mystery/Fantasy himself. While a pure solvable mystery case and acknowledging witches is possible, and therefore not brewed. It is still one those tactics that are obviously a cop out because the author himself couldn't write a coherent story where things make sense even with witches. And once again IMHO.
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Old 2009-08-27, 13:12   Link #1953
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Originally Posted by ChaosDimension View Post
Like I said it is only my opinion.
When you state your opinion, please do not claim something like "it is this, people!" as if everyone else was in the wrong. There is a manner to say it, and disregarding others' opinions or catering all of them in the "70% mystery 30% fantasy" was my problem".
Quote:
Everybody has a different interpretation of the red truth. Saying just because witches don't exist that we should discount the red entirely. Remember Battler can use it too as well as various other people. In the author's perspective it is merely a plot device. If we didn't have the red truth, the possibilities are limitless. Ryukishi is using the red so we stay on track.

"People do not claim witches exist in the said instances, but they do exist for sake of the plot."

Please elaborate on this, as that's stating that we shouldn't have a "anti-fantasy" stance regarding the witches. I believe that the witches can be explained and it'll all make sense.
That's exactly the point: there has to be something to be such device. If they are denied, there is nothing to consider seriously.
Why would you believe in something provided by an entity that doesn't exist? That's irrational.
Therefore, they do exist in term of plot element, but that doesn't mean witches are roaming on Rokkenjima, in a story sense.

Having an Anti Fantasy stance just means "the culprit isn't a witch". End of the story. Moreso, it is irrational to think the plot doesn't have any witches: then how about the kakeras? the meta world? They don't exist? So what all of these?
The point isn't to prove "witches don't exist", but the fact "the culprit is human". Furthermore, Episode 5 introduce a very sharp difference between Anti Fantasy and Mystery side, which we should side with the latter.

If there is really "no witch", we shouldn't even bother with the red.

Quote:
Once again, I am just referencing the introductory page from the game. He is stating that there are two possible solutions. Even in interviews Ryukishi states Anti Mystery/Fantasy himself. While a pure solvable mystery case and acknowledging witches is possible, and therefore not brewed. It is still one those tactics that are obviously a cop out because the author himself couldn't write a coherent story where things make sense even with witches. And once again IMHO.
What tactics? It is the way how Umineko bends both genre, without any contradiction. The fantasy isn't conflicting the mystery, but rather supplement how the mystery is that intricate.
And you know why this stage flavor text doesn't mean jack anymore? Because it is obviously Beatrice sneering at the future readers, but funnily enough, it was stated in red that Beatrice wants her mystery to be solved in Episode 5.

Using witches and magic as devices allow the author to expand the complexity in the mystery: cutting short of the most easy theories, adding interesting and impossible character developmens etc etc.
Most people will agree that despite they are anti fantasy, they LOVE fantasy, because it is a huge part of Umineko charm.
Therefore, it is also a part of acknowledge as part of the story, but NOT as part of the mystery of such murders.

Your point claims that "there cannot be witches and human culprit, or the story is a cop out", but since when both elements are exclusive?
Both elements aren't working on the same way, nor on the same field. The mystery is there as the backbone of the plot. The fantasy element adds flavor, fancy aspect but also harsh but useful truth that narrows theories but also expand possibilities.
Therefore, the story makes sense, because the culprit is human. But without the fantasy, you can have a dumbed down locked island story with enough food for an infinitisemal amount of answers: because all usual cookie cutter murder mysteries are following a predictable pattern and cannot go past a certain treshold, which Umineko can through the fantasy element.

The story relies on the witches as device, not as the base of the story.
But well, I guess this might be only my opinion as well.

Last edited by Klashikari; 2009-08-27 at 13:31.
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Old 2009-08-27, 13:32   Link #1954
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Well, this might just be a "false clue" or misdirection. A mystery without misdirection is almost never interesting. In fact, I'd call it even worse marketing to mention the actual solution's form in the game opening.

If you're expecting Ryuukishi to tell you all the possibilities for answers at the beginning, how could he possibly make a twist in a direction people didn't foresee?
Yes, Umineko is a mystery (though not a classic mystery) and large parts of it *should* be solvable, but he has to stretch the story over a 4 year period while games are getting released.
If people actually figure out the solutions halfway through, the series becomes an outright failure.

In short, Ryuukishi is banking on Higurashi fans. If you've read all of Higurashi, then you know to expect option C when dealing with Ryuukishi. The puzzle is figuring out an option C that is consistant.
While misdirection is used it is generally a taboo to do it in your introduction. Why would you use misdirection for people who haven't even read the book at all? Would you like a salesman to trick you at the start of their sales pitch?

Basically the introduction passage is to get you to buy the game. It's basically all the mumbo jumbo that says all why this product is good and why you should buy it. In Umineko's sense a brief summary, possible conclusions, and what your expectations are. If you mislead your would-be customers and trick them in your introduction then sure, people will still buy it. But will they buy your later products? That's the question.

If the solution is anything but anti-mystery/anti-fantasy then all the fans will cry foul "not as advertised" I was expecting, well, what you told me in your introduction and not this blah blah.

And regarding Higurashi, no I never read Higarashi, and I don't intend to. I did watch the anime and to me Higurashi is not as polished as Umineko. To me Ryukishi was testing his waters with Higurashi and that he has experience now and his next story will be much more epic than the previous one.

Want to know why Higurashi isn't as good as Umineko? Ask casual VNs/Anime watchers this, if you can describe Higurashi in a short phrase what do you think would their answer be? If its leaning more towards "A great mystery story" moreso than "Killer crazy lolis" then I'll take back everything I said.

EDIT: Ok, basically what I'm trying to say is that anything sort of a middleground between mystery/fantasy the answer is a MAYBE. If its truly fantasy then YES you believe in witches. If its truly mystery then NO a human did it and all of it is explainable.

Now ask yourself this, if I were the author to Umineko, would I want the answer to be a maybe?

Now reanalyze the introduction. Everything points to only two possible outcomes. If Ryukishi wanted a 3rd possible solution or even have a mixture of A or B, he could've simply done so. Just add "Or both?"

In short, this is a tale of a battle between humans and witches.
Is the culprit a "human", or a "witch"?
Is guesswork possible, or impossible?
Will you surrender to the witch, or stand up and face her?


By adding "or both" to those statements makes the solutions ambiguous. This gray area is what I'm talking about. This MAYBE area is what people are theorizing on. IMO Ryukishi is not aiming for that. I am merely pointing that out. I mean people have great theories but then when they come across a hurdle or a wall of some sort that they can't explain. Well I guess I can just put the it's being done by witches.

Last edited by ChaosDimension; 2009-08-27 at 14:02.
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Old 2009-08-27, 13:57   Link #1955
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Why would you use misdirection for people who haven't even read the book at all? Would you like a salesman to trick you at the start of their sales pitch?

Basically the introduction passage is to get you to buy the game. It's basically all the mumbo jumbo that says all why this product is good and why you should buy it. In Umineko's sense a brief summary, possible conclusions, and what your expectations are. If you mislead your would-be customers and trick them in your introduction then sure, people will still buy it. But will they buy your later products? That's the question.

If the solution is anything but anti-mystery/anti-fantasy then all the fans will cry foul "not as advertised" I was expecting, well, what you told me in your introduction and not this blah blah.

And regarding Higurashi, no I never read Higarashi, and I don't intend to. I did watch the anime and to me Higurashi is not as polished as Umineko. To me Ryukishi was testing his waters with Higurashi and that he has experience now and his next story will be much more epic than the previous one.

Want to know why Higurashi isn't as good as Umineko? Ask casual VNs/Anime watchers this, if you can describe Higurashi in a short phrase what do you think would their answer be? If its leaning more towards "A great mystery story" moreso than "Killer crazy lolis" then I'll take back everything I said.
I strongly suggest you don't try to judge a series without seeing the original. I'm not that surprised you didn't read Higurashi.

If you've been watching the Umineko anime, then you know that a lot of the story had to be cut out...and in Higurashi, more than half of the story was removed.

And enough with the killer loli thing, please. Strictly speaking, Higurashi doesn't have a single killer loli. Umineko has at least 2 ...At least as far as the reader is shown.
While the story in Higurashi wasn't as intricate as Umineko, there were enough secrets stuck in the first few arcs that it made re-reading the series an entirely different experience than the first time through. Almost all of these were cut out from the anime version.

Also, the greatest part of Higurashi was how the series spanned several genres and connected them together. You have the standard curse horror story, the yakuza conspiracy story, the fanatical union of villagers story, a few standard murder mysteries, and then Hanyuu. Ryuukishi's genius was in tying all of these together into a single consistent storyline.

So, to people who actually played Higurashi, it was always expected that Umineko would change genres. If every episode had played out like EP1, the series wouldn't be nearly as interesting no matter how well the closed rooms were made.

And, to complete my point, in a series where the genre itself is the greatest mystery (this is the real main point of that intro), why would you list the only 2 possible options before the game actually starts? In fact, if there are only two options, then anyone has a 50/50 chance of getting it right by guessing randomly. Where's the satisfaction in that?

Quote:
While misdirection is used it is generally a taboo to do it in your introduction.
I'm not sure where you're getting this from. The majority of stories in the fantasy/sci-fi genre have at least one major, game-changing twist in the middle. Are you suggesting that basically every single Final Fantasy game broke this supposed taboo?

The fact that the introduction is written from the perspective of a witch daring you to solve it should be hint enough that you can't blindly accept everything that's said.
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Old 2009-08-27, 13:58   Link #1956
Kimura sensei
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Yeah, witches exist...
The "anti-fantasy" point is just that they are not involved in the murders. And talking about witches, I can't wait for a certain magical creator to beat down two trolling witches.
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Old 2009-08-27, 14:11   Link #1957
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And enough with the killer loli thing, please. Strictly speaking, Higurashi doesn't have a single killer loli.
Spoiler for killer loli:
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Old 2009-08-27, 14:14   Link #1958
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Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
Spoiler for killer loli:
It is more technically an accident than a real murder.
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Old 2009-08-27, 14:15   Link #1959
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Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
Spoiler for killer loli:
Yeah, technically true, though since that's more or less an accident and barely shown at all, it's not much to name a meme after.
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Old 2009-08-27, 14:24   Link #1960
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Accident or murder, she's still a killer.
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