AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2010-12-12, 17:38   Link #19661
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
No way Yasu was impregnated by Kinzo. Not only is that a simply lulzy Trifecta, but it's been two years. The hell happened to the baby? Did she get an abortion or what.
Well I think that the main problem with that theory is that in the red guts scene Yasu is implying that the problem lied in what happened in 1967. And she also explicitly mentioned an injury


Quote:
どうして…!!どうしてあなたたちは私を助けたんですか?!
どうして死なせてくれなかったんですか?!私はあの時の大怪我で、……こんな体で生きさせられている!!こ んな体で、生きていたくなんかなかった!!
こんな、恋をすることも出来ない体で……!!そんなの、そんなの、生きる価値がないんじゃないですか?!そ んなのニンゲンじゃない…!!家具じゃないですか!!
そう、私は、家具……!!家具なんだ…!!
どうして、………私をあの時に死なせてくれなかったんですかッ!!ぅわぁああああぁあああああぁああぁああ ……!!!
Why! Why did you save me?!
Why you didn't let me die?! When I received such bad injury.... you made me live with such a body!! I didn't want to live with such a body!!
With such... body that cannot be loved*!! This... this... this isn't a life worth of being lived! This is not a human body! This is furniture!!
That's right, I am... furniture! Furniture!!
Why.... why you didn't let me die that day?! Uwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!


*The word "koi" is used, not "ai". That means it's implied that Yasu is talking about a sexual relationship.
__________________


Last edited by Jan-Poo; 2010-12-12 at 18:19.
Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-12, 18:38   Link #19662
Pikumin
Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: A Distant Planet
Age: 23
Fair enough, but it had better be one hell of a bad injury to justify all the things she has done(which it probably won't be, if it's just about sex). I'm hoping for a more psychological like explanation.
Pikumin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-12, 18:43   Link #19663
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Wait, I don't think this is, at all, the reason why she did all the stuff she did in 1986.

It's just something that worsened her already messed up mind.

According to what Clair says in EP7, it's really the "love duel" that was shown in EP6 the reason behind her crazy plan.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-12, 18:51   Link #19664
CrystalStarlight95
Miss Kimi
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Residing as the 18th guest of Rokkenjima
Age: 19
And the love duel was between Shannon, Kanon and Beatrice. As such, if there IS ShKanonTrice, the love duel should be titled:

"Which Personality Shall Have Full Control of Yasu's Body"

As for Zepar and Furfur's roles in this, I have no clue.
__________________
(Colored over a Higurashi manga scan. Yes, I suck .-.)

"Were you not listening, Kimi-chan? Knox's 7th: It is forbidden for the detective to be the culprit."
CrystalStarlight95 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-12, 18:54   Link #19665
witchfan
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
I think using the term 'multiple personalities' is a little hasty when it comes to Yasu. Yes, she's supposedly acting out different (imaginary) people, but it's hard to think she has what is the clinical definition of multiple personality disorder. It doesn't make sense: the assumption that such a mentally unstable person could think coherently enough to carry out a grand plan without panicking is very bold. The assumption that she would not be found out, or that even if found out would be allowed to remain a servant, is even bolder. That said, finding out she's the daughter of Kinzo and Beatrice -could- serve as a trigger for the disorder.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
No way Yasu was impregnated by Kinzo. Not only is that a simply lulzy Trifecta, but it's been two years. The hell happened to the baby? Did she get an abortion or what.
I always thought Battler is just a big damn baby.

Last edited by witchfan; 2010-12-12 at 19:10.
witchfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-12, 19:16   Link #19666
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Quote:
Originally Posted by witchfan View Post
On an unrelated note... if anyone has found mention of Shannon or Kanon (either by name or by characteristics) in either one of Ange's worlds, it could be an important step in understanding the way "Shannon and Kanon" exist for the people in Rokkenjima. As has been pointed out, if we can figure that out we could probably make sense of most mysteries in the story (unless the general consensus is "oh she was crossdressing"... yeah, no). I don't have EP4 on me, but I've been scurrying through EPs 5-6 for such a mention, with no luck so far.
As far as I know this is one of the things the anime is accurate on. There is no mention of Kanon and Shannon or any of the servants for that matter in 1998. The backstory in this episode is mostly focused on Rosa and Maria's family, Battler's family, and Eva. We get nothing on the servants. So if you want to speculate on anything you're left with metaphor.

The stakes could be the Servants becuase of EP7. And the closest thing I think of that we could point to as Yasu is either Beato herself or Sakutaro.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
No way Yasu was impregnated by Kinzo. Not only is that a simply lulzy Trifecta, but it's been two years. The hell happened to the baby? Did she get an abortion or what.
Well think about it. Before you had a scene that stretched logic so much it made no sense "therefore it could be fake". Now you can claim "it's not fake it's just one big, awkward, nonsensical, H scene censor".
Judoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-12, 19:24   Link #19667
tcaz
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by witchfan View Post
That said, finding out she's the daughter of Kinzo and Beatrice -could- serve as a trigger for the disorder.]
She handles it pretty well, actually.


Hence the whole problem with Yasu being the culprit. The motive shown and the severity of the crime don't match up. Yasu seemed to be getting over Battler and moving on at the end of the main game of Episode 7. She clearly still had feelings for him, but they weren't crushing her or anything. Plus, all the speeches that Shannon gives in other Episodes (especially the one in Episode 6 about moving on from your first love being okay) seem to indicate it's not affecting her much.

But then the Tea Party comes along and she (dressed as Beato) is acting like a dead person (and she even calls herself 'one of the dead' several times) and says she planned to blow everyone up, and it's implied by Clair at the end of the main game that it's because of the love duel.

But then that doesn't really match up with everything we know. Then Bernkastel says near the end after the whole Kyrie/Rudolf thing as she tears Clair's guts out that she was trying to cover for the real truth and that it didn't work now, which DOES fit with the motive, but then you run into the problem that it's basically impossible for some of the Episodes to happen without Yasu being the culprit (Ep1 especially).


The whole thing is a giant mess that is hard to make sense of no matter what way you slice it >.>

I'm still thinking there's just something in the early Episodes or whatever we've missed at this point.
tcaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-12, 19:45   Link #19668
MainCharacter
All Evils of the World
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Is it absolutely 100% that the culprit of the real events is the same culprit as in the gameboards, though? Yasu can be the culprit of, say, Episode 1, but that doesn't mean they really are the culprit. The murders were obviously carried out differently in each Episodes. Hell, Episode 6 had them killed by Erika, who isn't even really there.
MainCharacter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-12, 19:52   Link #19669
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Unless "Erika" is

Yet
Another
Shannon's
Username
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-12, 20:08   Link #19670
Cao Ni Ma
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
EP1 could be solved if any of the 6 (5?) people in the in the shed where still alive at the time of the discovery. Its just more convenient if its Shknontrice or say Rosa since Maria would go along with it in the last twilights.

Erika as Shkanontrice wouldn't work since that would be akin to the detective withholding evidence from the reader. I still think that Erika was able to kill them do to the whole time doesn't matter, instant red truth kinda thing that happen in EP6.

Small idea, maybe its been said before. But what if during EP4 the people actually saw the actual Kinzo? As in the actual treasure house / gold warehouse?
Cao Ni Ma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-12, 20:18   Link #19671
CrystalStarlight95
Miss Kimi
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Residing as the 18th guest of Rokkenjima
Age: 19
It could be possible for everyone to be alive in the shed. In the anime, everyone just stares in shock, Nanjo could be in on it by claiming they're all dead (Who wouldn't believe the doctor?)
Hideyoshi and Kanon don't touch anyone, they just watched, saw Shannon's ring finger, and that's it..
__________________
(Colored over a Higurashi manga scan. Yes, I suck .-.)

"Were you not listening, Kimi-chan? Knox's 7th: It is forbidden for the detective to be the culprit."
CrystalStarlight95 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-12, 20:20   Link #19672
Kylon99
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
Small idea, maybe its been said before. But what if during EP4 the people actually saw the actual Kinzo? As in the actual treasure house / gold warehouse?
Someone theorized earlier that they actually wheeled out Kinzo's body or something.

Just a separate thought:
EP4 differs from the other episodes it seems. In EP2, Yasu actually made the siblings acknowledge that she was the successor by making them go to the church and presenting the gold. But in EP4, Krauss came back and said to leave it to 'Genji' which I took it to mean that this is the plan that Genji came up with.

Perhaps the way to deal with getting co-operation from the siblings is different in each episode; 1 idea from each of the Beatrice faction? Kind of like a spur-of-the-moment idea that was not really planned clearly...

EP1: Kumasawa or Nanjo?
EP2: Yasu
EP3: Kumasawa or Nanjo?
EP4: Genji

EP5: Kumasawa or Genji?
EP6: Battler?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrystalStarlight95 View Post
It could be possible for everyone to be alive in the shed. In the anime, everyone just stares in shock, Nanjo could be in on it by claiming they're all dead (Who wouldn't believe the doctor?)
Hideyoshi and Kanon don't touch anyone, they just watched, saw Shannon's ring finger, and that's it..
Yah, significant lack of confirmation from the detective there. Good job, 無能 Battler. But yah, by morning, Hideyoshi could very well have been recruited into the fakery (if he had not already known about it before hand.) In fact, almost everyone could've been recruited, except for maybe Jessica... (I'd believe George was in on the plot already, owing to his connection to Shannon.)
Kylon99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-12, 20:21   Link #19673
erneiz_hyde
Indifferent
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: InterWebs
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Unless "Erika" is

Yet
Another
Shannon's
Username
I see! So Erika was banned from the forum because she's caught as another user's alternate username! lol

On a serious note, I doubt Erika is yasu. Yasu was depicted as the martyr who takes all blame as Beatrice, while Erika is depicted to be the blamer trying to deny Beatrice. Unless Yasu really badly lost some screws for whatever reason, I really have trouble seeing Erika originated from Yasu.

Heck, you might as well say it "I wouldn't put it past Yasu".
__________________
erneiz_hyde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-12, 20:32   Link #19674
rogerpepitone
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Send a message via Yahoo to rogerpepitone
Also add in that Episode 6 states very clearly that Kanon != Yasu.
rogerpepitone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-12, 20:35   Link #19675
MainCharacter
All Evils of the World
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Highly doubt Erika is Yasu. That's kinda silly. Besides, I thought we all agreed that Erika fell of the boat, died, and washed up on the island dead? Quite implied in the Tips, at least.
MainCharacter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-12, 20:49   Link #19676
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
Originally Posted by MainCharacter View Post
Highly doubt Erika is Yasu. That's kinda silly. Besides, I thought we all agreed that Erika fell of the boat, died, and washed up on the island dead? Quite implied in the Tips, at least.
I actually never agreed with that and it isn't really implied in any TIP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
Also add in that Episode 6 states very clearly that Kanon != Yasu.
You mean: Kanon != Erika
right?

That's actually the only real obstacle I see to my theory. Everything else matches perfectly.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-12, 20:59   Link #19677
CrystalStarlight95
Miss Kimi
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Residing as the 18th guest of Rokkenjima
Age: 19
I don't understand how Erika wasn't really there at the island. I mean, she did kill everyone, people acknowledged her, so, a tad bit confused over here ._.
__________________
(Colored over a Higurashi manga scan. Yes, I suck .-.)

"Were you not listening, Kimi-chan? Knox's 7th: It is forbidden for the detective to be the culprit."
CrystalStarlight95 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-12, 21:02   Link #19678
Cao Ni Ma
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrystalStarlight95 View Post
I don't understand how Erika wasn't really there at the island. I mean, she did kill everyone, people acknowledged her, so, a tad bit confused over here ._.
The idea that none of the games really happened and are just a trick or part of a single truth that people call Rokkenjima Prime. Erika existed on those 2 games, but she didn't in the first 4.
Cao Ni Ma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-12, 21:24   Link #19679
Marion
The Great Dine
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
The idea that none of the games really happened and are just a trick or part of a single truth that people call Rokkenjima Prime. Erika existed on those 2 games, but she didn't in the first 4.
Technically, that's the idea for all the games at this point. According to Bern and her red truth the only thing that really happened is the tea party in EP 7, but that red disappears so yeah.
__________________

Sig by nocco
Marion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-12, 21:27   Link #19680
Kylon99
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
Well, the thing about the stories themselves though, despite the existence of Rokkenjima Prime is that they should still be internally consistent. In Rokkenjima Prime, Erika never made it to the island, yes.

But in EP5 and 6, the *story*, she did. In the story, whether she's alive or dead, counts as a person or not, it should remain internally consistent.

Sorta like say you wrote a story of the moon landing and they had one extra guy there. That guy should remain in the story, but if he suddenly disappears in one scene with the only excuse that he was never there for real... then this seems like the mark of a bad (really bad) writer.

As much as we distrust Hachijou, I don't think she's that bad... is she?
Kylon99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 17:29.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.