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Old 2009-08-27, 14:26   Link #1961
ChaosDimension
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I agree with you Chronotrig, but here's the thing. Since Ryukishi has barely any fanbase at that moment, he had to resort to the popular culture. I mean look at all the cliche's he has borrowed from other animes and used on Higurashi.

-Harem(Boy moves into town with tons of girls, barely any other guys)
-Slice of life(yeah half the anime could've done without this)
-Underage kids(I mean seriously a murder story with underage kids?)
-Over the top violence/killing methods(yes people love gore especially when kids are doing it)
-Cutesy characters(yeah seriously, I never liked maria, having double or triple that in higurashi, naw don't think so.)
-Kakera Traveling Rika(this idea is akin to "it was all a dream solution" or "I can start over solution = I can milk my cash cow again")
-Nipaa/Hanyuu (you know you made a good story when people refer your character's catchphrases)

For the reasons above, I refuse to read Higurashi. I can't shake off the fact that there's a intricate storyline hidden beneath all those reasons. I mean Ryukishi could've just omitted all those above and created the next "Monster"(the actual anime/manga) and it would've given him the same effect but I guess he wasn't confident in his writing then.
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Old 2009-08-27, 14:35   Link #1962
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^ And if Ryukishi didn't use these points, it wouldn't be Higurashi, but a very generic murder mystery without much things to be interested about.

What makes Higurashi unique is the arc system, but also the colorful cast that can attract sympathy and empathy.
Harem? I'm sorry, but do you know the real definition of harem? That is basically a single male protagonist with several romance possibilities with tons of girl. That is not the case here: it is basically a giant lure and the romance were left by far minimal (at best the romance was a triangle, and it was NEVER the driving element of the story).

The slice of life is actually what makes the whole story as "lively" instead of having "murders, next". What is the point then? To have nameless grunts being killed without any sense of attachment? Likewise, Umineko retains some of this aspect, with a lot of similar casual discussions, be it in the gameboard or meta world.

Underaged kids? And so? What makes a story less credible with kids? The fact there are adults don't mean anything the story "is mature". Likewise, the fact the protagonists are children don't mean it is a cliché. There are psychotic children, child soldiers etc IRL you see.

Over the top violence? How are they over the top? See elfen lied, Naru taru etc, and we will see afterwards.

Cutesy characters? I'm sorry but this is just a facade: the story has shown that all characters have a very distinct past and personality, that the "cuty cuty" aspect is again an illusion, a misleading information. And they were blatantly explained to say the least.

The Kakera makes the whole thing required to use an approach of "different result" and therefore, an expanded mystery regarding the butterfly effect and so forth. Why would a story must rely on 1 single timeline? Dream solution? How when the rest of the experiences were awful? When the past couldn't be changed?

You are basically expecting Higurashi to be Monster, with superflous flaw. Actually, I believe you are waiting for the very wrong genre.
I don't want to expand the offtopic even more, but if you remove the essence of Higurashi, it seems you are waiting for a VERY catered genre which Higurashi doesn't belong to.

Barely any fanbase? more than half of the fanbase was from Higurashi. Did he need pop culture? He is basically trampling on them: if you noticed how it was done with the anime, Higurashi was an absolute curve ball: all "prejudice" were quickly wrecked into pieces when the real plot emerged. It was nothing about predictable cliché.
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Old 2009-08-27, 14:36   Link #1963
chronotrig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosDimension View Post
I agree with you Chronotrig, but here's the thing. Since Ryukishi has barely any fanbase at that moment, he had to resort to the popular culture. I mean look at all the cliche's he has borrowed from other animes and used on Higurashi.

-Harem(Boy moves into town with tons of girls, barely any other guys)
-Slice of life(yeah half the anime could've done without this)
-Underage kids(I mean seriously a murder story with underage kids?)
-Over the top violence/killing methods(yes people love gore especially when kids are doing it)
-Cutesy characters(yeah seriously, I never liked maria, having double or triple that in higurashi, naw don't think so.)
-Nipaa/Hanyuu (you know you made a good story when people refer your character's catchphrases)

For the reasons above, I refuse to read Higurashi. I can't shake off the fact that there's a intricate storyline hidden beneath all those reasons. I mean Ryukishi could've just omitted all those above and created the next "Monster"(the actual anime/manga) and it would've given him the same effect but I guess he wasn't confident in his writing then.
I see, there's the problem. This part also didn't come across as well in the Higurashi anime, but Umineko is making it more obvious.

These so-called "cliches" are totally intentional. Instead of simply writing an entirely new story (which would have been fine), Ryuukishi likes to take existing cliches and twist them around, basically parodying the genres they come from. Onikakushi looks like the most cliche of horrors, but in actuality, there isn't a single true horror aspect that is shown (except for Tomitake's death).

Even Umineko is filled with cliches. EP1 is so much like "And then there were none" that it's almost funny sometimes. The fact that Ryuukishi can borrow so much and yet make a story that's completely original is perhaps his greatest gift.

Quote:
-Kakera Traveling Rika(this idea is akin to "it was all a dream solution" or "I can start over solution = I can milk my cash cow again")
Umm, could you name another series that used the same Kakera system as Higurashi? There are very few that are even similar, and not a single one that is completely identical.

Far from a cop-out, it forces him to make every single arc possible with only a few very small changes. There are about 5 or 6 tiny events that are responsible for 90% of the differences between Higurashi arcs. In other words, he's made almost the exact same story look like a half dozen different genres by using the exact same pieces.

And you can't say that there are no connections between the arcs. It is not a "dream" solution...not even close.


Edit: Sorry for ganging up on you like this
Still, I think it's important to understand what Higurashi was all about before reading Umineko. That's really all I'm trying to say.
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Old 2009-08-27, 14:52   Link #1964
ChaosDimension
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Once again, I am referring that, that is what lead to Higurashi's success. His intended demographic is all those I listed above. Sure it's not exactly a harem, but nobody cares about that. If the picture shows 1 dude with like 7 other girls, harem fans will buy it.

Slice of life is more along the lines of Key animes Kanon/Air/Clannad, sure he may be using it as backgrounds for each character but that doesn't still change the glaring fact that he's obviously trying to lure that demographic's fanbase.

I could go on and on about the other cliches but you get the idea. In Higurashi he put all those cliches together to "sugar coat" his novel and then when all those fanbases check it out, they go "new and exciting!"

In retrospect to Umineko, Ryukishi has toned down to use of anime cliches. Because ultimately, he wants to stray away from that. Sure he's not gonna drop it off completely as he wants to hold on to his fanbase. That's why we still got Lambda and Bern. But in truth, he probably wants people to know that he is capable of doing better and without those cliche's to boot. When that happens we win
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Old 2009-08-27, 14:55   Link #1965
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°!

What also seems to be the problem for me is that way too many people consider like... any girl of minor age as a loli, which simply is incorrect use of the term.

As for ryukishi's introduction, I don't really get where exactly anyone could see a problem there. Why should someone point out every possible solution for his work right at the beginning? As already pointed out previously, that's like mentioning 'In this game there will be a huge unexpected twist near the end, so look forward to that!!'. Any premise fails when it already tells too much right at the beginning. For example there's also a reason for Beatrice showing up at the end of Episode 1 and not right from the start of the events.

Quote:
-Kakera Traveling Rika(this idea is akin to "it was all a dream solution" or "I can start over solution = I can milk my cash cow again")
How can he milk the cow again when the story did not even get actual closure? Furthermore you can't call that the dream solution since there never were any dreams, it's about an infinite number of parallel universes and what happens in one of these universes stays that way.

As for other cliches you mentioned... what's so wrong about them as long as they are just one litte aspect of the whole thing? Apart from those ryukishi's plots have a complexness that can not be found that often.

Comparing Higurashi to Monster seems quite ridiculous to me. I know both (Monster Anime and Higurashi in almost every version available) and IMO Higurashi mixes genres much more and in a more interesting way while Monster just took the German crime thriller genre and added some mystification aspects. I also think Monster is and excellent series, but it's nothing more than that and while Monster had a couple of really interesting and realistic characters none were as complex and fleshed out as Higurashi's characters. Furthermore you can not compare a manga/anime to the adaption of a novel... And with that I mean you can't really compare Monster with Higurashi since for Monster there is only the manga and the anime adaption while in Higurashi's case the manga and anime are only adaptions of a huge novel series. The possibility of adding details and fleshing out every aspect to the extent of a novel can not be achieved in any other medium
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Old 2009-08-27, 14:55   Link #1966
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In retrospect to Umineko, Ryukishi has toned down to use of anime cliches
-Tsundere [check]
-Maid [check]
-big boobs [check]
-Milfs [check]
-loli [check]
-killer girls [check]
-brutal murders [check]
do I have to continue?
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Old 2009-08-27, 15:03   Link #1967
marebito
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosDimension View Post
In Higurashi he put all those cliches together to "sugar coat" his novel and then when all those fanbases check it out, they go "new and exciting!"

In retrospect to Umineko, Ryukishi has toned down to use of anime cliches. Because ultimately, he wants to stray away from that. Sure he's not gonna drop it off completely as he wants to hold on to his fanbase. That's why we still got Lambda and Bern. But in truth, he probably wants people to know that he is capable of doing better and without those cliche's to boot. When that happens we win
I'm really amused at how you claim to know what he is thinking. How do you know that he himself is not satisfied with the fact that his works belong to popular culture and that they do to some extent and in a twisted way contain cliches? If he wanted to stay away from what he did in Higurashi's case he could have done so witch Higurasi's success, but no, he even releases Umineko as a doujin product series again.
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Old 2009-08-27, 15:04   Link #1968
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosDimension View Post
Once again, I am referring that, that is what lead to Higurashi's success. His intended demographic is all those I listed above. Sure it's not exactly a harem, but nobody cares about that. If the picture shows 1 dude with like 7 other girls, harem fans will buy it.
I'm sorry but most fans weren't even interested by the outcome of Keiichi's romance interest, incomparison with the identity of the real culprit etc.
The main point of a harem is to leave the possibilities to shipping faction (or whatever you can call it) to have their "horse" to root for. There were people who were "tricked by this" and discovered it wasn't anything about that.

Quote:
Slice of life is more along the lines of Key animes Kanon/Air/Clannad, sure he may be using it as backgrounds for each character but that doesn't still change the glaring fact that he's obviously trying to lure that demographic's fanbase.
Key animes have a marginal chunk of slice of life. If you really want that kind of genre, it is basically series like Honey & clover.
And no, having some background for character isn't about fanbase or whatnot: it is about exploring character psychology and motives.
Quote:
I could go on and on about the other cliches but you get the idea. In Higurashi he put all those cliches together to "sugar coat" his novel and then when all those fanbases check it out, they go "new and exciting!"
Sugar coating? So actually it is only about the presentation? Oh sure, so basically Elfen lied would have been "much more mature" if Nyu has a perma adult form, huh?
It might an attractive element for certain fans, but it doesn't make the series at all. It is all about taste, but also purpose of such elements. And if it was only for selling, why would you actually bother with backgrounds and the like? These are contradictory.
Quote:
In retrospect to Umineko, Ryukishi has toned down to use of anime cliches. Because ultimately, he wants to stray away from that. Sure he's not gonna drop it off completely as he wants to hold on to his fanbase. That's why we still got Lambda and Bern. But in truth, he probably wants people to know that he is capable of doing better and without those cliche's to boot. When that happens we win
Hou really? How about the cliché inheritance issue? The otaku elements (touhou, tsurupettan, references etc)? The slice of life? The fanservice? The stakes? Beatrice?
You are telling me these aren't mangled cliché either? He couldn't decently use the same kind since he changed the setup of the story, but that doesn't mean he didn't use any cliché "like you said". And even if he does, is that anything problematic? As far as I can see, you are just putting these elements are flaws and unecessary elements, despite these stories don't have the prestumptious aim to follow the rest of the "same genre".

And if Lambda and Bern are for the fanbase, it is rather ludicrous: Bern is nowhere close to what we know from Higurashi, and Lambda is basically a new character.
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Old 2009-08-27, 15:29   Link #1969
ChaosDimension
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Ok, guys this is spiraling out of control and yes I give up. I don't know how it ended up being a discussion about Higurashi but I will probably lose regarding that as I have only watched the anime(yes I know how things are lost in conversion from VN to anime).

Here's what I'm really trying to get across.
In the Umineko introduction Ryukishi challenges us to a mystery, "Do witches exist or not?". It's merely question of YES and NO. What I'm trying to warn people about is that people are theorizing both are a possible outcome. While it is a possible, they are now going into the realm of MAYBE. Which, in my opinion, not what Ryukishi is aiming for. I am sorry for saying that there is only 2 possible solutions, 100% anti mystery and 100% anti fantasy that was wrong of me and I should've worded that as a the "yes or no question." Also, I acknowledge that having 100% mystery is possible while acknowledging witches. That too should've been worded differently. My intended warning was to those that had theories but hit a wall and used witches as a scapegoat because it couldn't be explained. Not to people with theories that had 100% mystery theories with witches either helping battler find out the truth or some other variation of the sort.

Hope that clear things up. And I'll try to read higurashi, I have it installed since forever but I guess having the anime influence you first hurts your first impressions doesn't it

(That and so I got coherent backing when I'm arguing using higurashi )
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Old 2009-08-27, 17:49   Link #1970
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Originally Posted by ChaosDimension View Post
Ok, guys this is spiraling out of control and yes I give up. I don't know how it ended up being a discussion about Higurashi but I will probably lose regarding that as I have only watched the anime(yes I know how things are lost in conversion from VN to anime).

Here's what I'm really trying to get across.
In the Umineko introduction Ryukishi challenges us to a mystery, "Do witches exist or not?". It's merely question of YES and NO. What I'm trying to warn people about is that people are theorizing both are a possible outcome. While it is a possible, they are now going into the realm of MAYBE. Which, in my opinion, not what Ryukishi is aiming for. I am sorry for saying that there is only 2 possible solutions, 100% anti mystery and 100% anti fantasy that was wrong of me and I should've worded that as a the "yes or no question." Also, I acknowledge that having 100% mystery is possible while acknowledging witches. That too should've been worded differently. My intended warning was to those that had theories but hit a wall and used witches as a scapegoat because it couldn't be explained. Not to people with theories that had 100% mystery theories with witches either helping battler find out the truth or some other variation of the sort.

Hope that clear things up. And I'll try to read higurashi, I have it installed since forever but I guess having the anime influence you first hurts your first impressions doesn't it

(That and so I got coherent backing when I'm arguing using higurashi )
For me, the challenge was never "Do witches exist or not?". The challenge came at the end of episode 1 in the form of a letter:

Spoiler for Maria's Letter:

This challenge letter does not mention witches once and is almost the same as the letter left in Higurashi.

Like you said, everyone has their own opinions but I recommend not dropping this one.

We'll all be rewarded with the truth in the end.
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Old 2009-08-27, 22:30   Link #1971
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In the Umineko introduction Ryukishi challenges us to a mystery, "Do witches exist or not?".
Not really. The goal is to figure what truly happened in Rokkenjima. Battler can't hardly be expected to disprove witches in all their entirety, as he would then have for example prove that the metaworld doesn't exist, which would be pretty stupid - and after all, proving that the Rokkenjima murders were committed with human means does not prove that witches don't exist, only that they had nothing to do with the human murders. The goal is to find what truly happened, not to prove the existance of witches one way or another.
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Old 2009-08-28, 03:56   Link #1972
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To get back on topic, here's part 2 of my theory. Have fun tearing apart this one

Spoiler for Anti-fantasy theory:
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Old 2009-08-28, 04:02   Link #1973
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Um, in EP4's 2nd Tea Party...

Spoiler for EP4:
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Old 2009-08-28, 04:03   Link #1974
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Not really. The goal is to figure what truly happened in Rokkenjima. Battler can't hardly be expected to disprove witches in all their entirety, as he would then have for example prove that the metaworld doesn't exist, which would be pretty stupid - and after all, proving that the Rokkenjima murders were committed with human means does not prove that witches don't exist, only that they had nothing to do with the human murders. The goal is to find what truly happened, not to prove the existance of witches one way or another.
It might be true now after you have seen various episodes, but in origin when episode1 was released it really was "the witch exists or not" the "magic exist or not".
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Old 2009-08-28, 04:07   Link #1975
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Didn't the whole argument start when Battler disagreed that Beatrice killed them all on Earth/real world?
Then the real Beatrice shows up in Purgatory and tells him to prove it.
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Old 2009-08-28, 04:14   Link #1976
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Battler in the first purgatorio scene clearly says that witches and magic do not exist and everything that his cousins say are nonsense. At the same time Maria as been saying "majo ga iru" like a broken recorder since the first chapters.

EDIT: discussion proposal:

Spoiler for Episode5:
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Old 2009-08-28, 08:50   Link #1977
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Just a quick thought I've generated when analyzing the red/blue text of ep5. A bit busy lately, so it's not well detailed yet. Will add more details later:

Spoiler for Knocking sound mystery:
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Old 2009-08-28, 09:15   Link #1978
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Ahhh my eyes! ep 5 spoilers!

Anyone agrees that Genji was most probably the one who did the 2nd, 4th and 5th twilights of chapter 2?
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Old 2009-08-28, 10:38   Link #1979
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Originally Posted by Rias View Post
Just a quick thought I've generated when analyzing the red/blue text of ep5. A bit busy lately, so it's not well detailed yet. Will add more details later:

Spoiler for Knocking sound mystery:
Yes this is one of the first things I have thought. In ep5 we ha a good example of how the red truth can be used to completely distorce the reality so this is quite possible. Right now I don't get how to explain the knocking in another way but I see a possibility to explain the letter:

Spoiler for episode5:


Quote:
Anyone agrees that Genji was most probably the one who did the 2nd, 4th and 5th twilights of chapter 2?"
If Genji did the second twilight then Shannon is an accomplice. Same for the 4th and 5th. I don't know frankly, I'm still of the idea that Genji Kumasawa and Nanjo are out of the question. Which means following your same reasoning I'd rather say Shannon is the culprit. She was in his same position in all the aforementioned twilights.
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Old 2009-08-28, 20:06   Link #1980
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Spoiler for umineko ep5:


Spoiler for Asumu-Battler:

Okay now
Spoiler for possible:
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