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Old 2010-12-19, 15:20   Link #19961
Cao Ni Ma
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You're right, I forgot that meta Battler is the person that narrates that scene.
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Old 2010-12-19, 16:33   Link #19962
AuraTwilight
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@Lion's gender: I'm on the fence on this one. For one, I love my hermaphrodite idea, and the idea that the deciding difference between Clair's and Lion's worlds are whether they're Female or Male, respectively.

Though I also like the idea that Clair has no idea what her original gender was; perhaps she wasn't told, and in the accident, whatever she was is so torn up they basically had to make her a sexless eunuch. Thus we have Shannon and Kanon, and Lion refuses to acknowledge which gender he is, because it's a catbox.

Shannon and Kanon are clearly the same person one way or another. It's just been so heavily pushed on us at this point that any argument to make them two separate individuals is just trying to dodge the obvious. But they're no split personalities or anything of the sort. Yasu's mind is much too coherent for that; she's just acting out the parts her own self and imagining them as imaginary friends.
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Old 2010-12-19, 16:56   Link #19963
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I think she's simply female.

And I really doubt Ryuukishi is going to tell us that he wrote a story longer than war & peace to narrate the predicament and the love stories of a dickless boy.
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Old 2010-12-19, 17:19   Link #19964
tcaz
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I think she's simply female.

And I really doubt Ryuukishi is going to tell us that he wrote a story longer than war & peace to narrate the predicament and the love stories of a dickless boy.
...This IS Japan we're talking about.

I mean, I agree Yasu and Lion are most likely female, but it IS Japan...
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Old 2010-12-19, 17:28   Link #19965
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So, is anyone else getting ready to do an entire reread of all the episodes with a "key" in mind?

I'm going to go back and see if "Yasu" fits with what we've been shown before, as well as "Kyrie and Rudolf as the culprits," though I can't see that working in the first few episodes.
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Old 2010-12-19, 18:03   Link #19966
Cao Ni Ma
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Originally Posted by Thunder Book View Post
So, is anyone else getting ready to do an entire reread of all the episodes with a "key" in mind?

I'm going to go back and see if "Yasu" fits with what we've been shown before, as well as "Kyrie and Rudolf as the culprits," though I can't see that working in the first few episodes.
Try thinking that everyone is the culprit instead, regardless of their status, age or apparent reason. Use things like the info given during the theater-going scenes to give a portrayal of the character and how they would react to the scenes. Locking yourself in searching for clues regarding Yasu or Kyrie/Rudolf scenario would leave you tunnel blind if a huge twist sprouts out in the final game.
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Old 2010-12-19, 18:16   Link #19967
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Well, I think Yasu and her Epitaph game were one of the keys we were given in EP5 and 6... and now very clearly in EP7, though we're asked to believe that she also wants to kill people at the end...

But in EP7, the other key we're given, which we kinda guessed already is that the siblings will get into revenge killings... or after-the-fact killings; however we should call it. Basically, they themselves will commit murders and this *also* causes noise.

I think there's one more key because I think some people will agree that it feels like there's one more 'thing' that causes these murders. If we have two keys; and we go back and find something that could not be started with these two... then we have evidence of a third...

i.e. I'm thinking of the "Mastermind" as we call him, who has his or *her* own plans for murder independent of the siblings and the Yasu/Beatrice plan... *cough*George*cough*.
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Old 2010-12-19, 18:19   Link #19968
erneiz_hyde
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Yasu is an eunuch lol.

Also, regarding Berune's missing master-key case, I'm wondering if it could be done simply by placing the key and the preparing the incomplete key-ring before hand (using Yasu's own key-ring) and just switch it with the one Berune threw on the bed when she's not looking.

Also, I'm now even more sure that Shannon never really existed, and possibly, Shannon really was Yasu's fukuin name, though I can't know for sure. Maybe I'll list all possible indications of Shannon-never-existed that I spotted.
-Shannon is already 'there' and appeared as an adult when Yasu first arrived in Rokkenjima. This should be impossible.
-The scene where Yasu started becoming a witch and Shannon forget about her, Shannon suddenly mentioned going to school and reading mystery novels, which should be Yasu's memory.
-Also, prior to that, no single servant react to what Shannon said at all. I mean, you can strip all of Shannon's dialogue and what you get is Yasu talking to herself and not the other servants.
-Then there's that being the only one not in a three-people room

I used to favor the Double-Shkanon theory over the traditional one, but I think now that either wouldn't matter. I'm pretty convinced now that Shannon and Kanon exist only in the mystery gameboard and not the Prime.

*Currently re-reading the posts here from about 4 months ago*
EDIT: Found it at last. Recommended read for those new to the Umineko speculation thread. It's one of the current generally accepted theory, though much has changed.
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Old 2010-12-19, 18:31   Link #19969
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post

Also, regarding Berune's missing master-key case, I'm wondering if it could be done simply by placing the key and the preparing the incomplete key-ring before hand (using Yasu's own key-ring) and just switch it with the one Berune threw on the bed when she's not looking.

I don't think there's much to debate about that. That's what happened.
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Old 2010-12-19, 18:44   Link #19970
Nero Allelujah
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Yeah, I thought about too. Everything in episode 7 seems to point to the fact that Shannon, Beatrice, and Gaap were all illusions or people that Yasu would like to become if he/she wasn't so imperfect. If we think about it, in EP2 Jessica gave "Kanon" some advice about projecting different selfs so that they could live life the way they want. From this, its also possible to assume that Kanon doesn't exist and that Yasu was actually the person listening to Jessica, and from this got the idea of creating Shannon and such. That or split personalities...although I didn't wanna accept the logic, it seems that Yasu=Shannon=Gaap=Beatrice=Kanon.

I was pleased with this episode, but I wished Will could've explained all the tricks without riddles, just to prove if our theories were 100%right.

On another hand, there's the conflicting final games being made by two GM...one game by Battler to show a "bittersweet" truth and one brutal one by Bernkastel...so which one do we pick to be the actual truth?
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Old 2010-12-19, 18:52   Link #19971
Cao Ni Ma
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I was thinking about this as well, basically the ego and super ego aspects of those scenes. Yasu's super ego is Shannon, somewhere along the line she creates an ego of Beatrice. Then that Beatrice becomes the super ego for Maria, which already had created an ego that saw herself as a witch/divinity.

In regard to the endings we got the Sweet Ending in EP6, the Bitter one in EP7. We will probably get a real Bittersweet ending with EP8 unless the choices lead to a worst ending than the one in EP7
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Old 2010-12-19, 19:04   Link #19972
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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
I was thinking about this as well, basically the ego and super ego aspects of those scenes. Yasu's super ego is Shannon, somewhere along the line she creates an ego of Beatrice. Then that Beatrice becomes the super ego for Maria, which already had created an ego that saw herself as a witch/divinity.
I don't think so. It's just Shannon disguising and acting differently in front of her. It's hinted that Maria tend to view people by how they behave.
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Old 2010-12-19, 19:06   Link #19973
Nero Allelujah
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Though Will did bring up a good point, in the Tea Party of EP7, there were no clues whatsoever that pointed to a murder...no, it actually means that a mystery wasn't possible. After performing Beato's funeral, we're led to believe that this is truly a mystery, not a fantasy found by a witch....who's half a cat...and half a *****.
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Old 2010-12-19, 19:08   Link #19974
Nero Allelujah
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I don't think so. It's just Shannon disguising and acting differently in front of her. It's hinted that Maria tend to view people by how they behave.
True, Maria is not reliable as a witness except to prove that someone could've changed their behavior.
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Old 2010-12-19, 19:10   Link #19975
Cao Ni Ma
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I don't think so. It's just Shannon disguising and acting differently in front of her. It's hinted that Maria tend to view people by how they behave.
I dont know where you are going at, Im saying that Maria decides to base herself on the person that she sees as Beatrice, it doesn't matter how she looks like.

e- maybe you got confused, when I said that Yasu's super ego is based on Shannon I meant the one that she tried to imitate, not the one she later created.
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Old 2010-12-19, 19:15   Link #19976
erneiz_hyde
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I dont know where you are going at, Im saying that Maria decides to base herself on the person that she sees as Beatrice, it doesn't matter how she looks like.
Oh, you mean 'what' Maria want to be? I thought you were saying that Maria=Beatrice.
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Old 2010-12-19, 19:18   Link #19977
Judoh
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I've had this weird vibe that George is Ronove since episode 3. But I believed Ronove was Genji for well stating he was in a later episode.

The scene where Maria named everybody made me think there could be more people than just Yasu there that are pretending.

I also didn't really base that idea off of anything conclusive so you can just forget I said it if you want.
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Old 2010-12-19, 19:21   Link #19978
Nero Allelujah
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I've had this weird vibe that George is Ronove since episode 3. But I believed Ronove was Genji for well stating he was in a later episode.

The scene where Maria named everybody made me think there could be more people than just Yasu there that are pretending.
I think I might follow what you're saying here..in that scene, it could actually be Genji, Kumasawa and Nanjo? going along with this farce. To both help Maria and Yasu cope with everything.

But I'll just ignore that George = Ronove, since then I'd have to assume Battler and Jessica are Virgillia and Gaap, and that might not match up too well : P
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Old 2010-12-19, 19:35   Link #19979
TTR
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This just in: Maria has prosopagnosia.
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Old 2010-12-19, 19:39   Link #19980
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Anyone got any theories on what they think Ep 8 will be about? It seems that pretty much everything has already been clearly answered except for the "How dunnit?"

The last scene of Ep 7 confuses me a bit though. It seems like Ange is imaging/fantasizing/pretending that Battler is going to tell her that nothing bad happened on Rokkenjima. Maybe the story "Battler" will tell Ange, is the tale he wrote for Beatrice? And it might be possible that in Ep 8 Bern is going to twist Battler's tale into the worst possible outcome.

So Ep 8 could be about Bern and Battler fighting over the true outcome of Battler's tale for Ange's sake.
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