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Old 2009-11-26, 08:03   Link #101
kuro_usagi
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Maria...
In her cute mode, I love her ^^
But in stubborn & crazy mode, I found her annoying~ X(
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Old 2009-11-26, 14:22   Link #102
suiryoku
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Maria is my least favorite character of Umineko. I admit, when she first started crying about her rose, I wanted her mom to make her be quiet (not necessarily hit her). Also, I do like how knowledgeable she is on witchcraft and demonic symbols, she's definitely a valuable asset. If only she wouldn't be so weird when it comes to talking about Beatrice. I used to think she was possessed (I still do).
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Old 2009-11-27, 18:13   Link #103
TheComedian
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I'm not really crazy about Maria. Her constant Kira-like expressions were a little annoying, especially when characters I LIKE are getting killed off. Although she does seem to be making a degree of improvement, and I will say her mom is pretty despicable considering she treats her HORRIBLY at any given opportunity.

EDIT: I would like to disregard that statement now. Maria did something rather cool in 22. Can't say what, ya'll have to see for yourselves :P
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Last edited by TheComedian; 2009-11-28 at 00:43.
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Old 2009-11-28, 03:57   Link #104
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After seeing what Rosa did to the poor child turning her into the next female version of Kira, i have no remorse for the bitch. Oh really you hate the child that much eh? ADOPT HER AND SAVE EVERYBODY THE TROUBLE!
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Old 2009-11-28, 09:35   Link #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crontica View Post
After seeing what Rosa did to the poor child turning her into the next female version of Kira, i have no remorse for the bitch. Oh really you hate the child that much eh? ADOPT HER AND SAVE EVERYBODY THE TROUBLE!
I doubt Rosa actually hates Maria... I still believe that part of the story was a dream or an illusion of some sort. Otherwise Rosa wouldn't feel badly after she abuses Maria nor would she protect her during the entirety of EP2 nor would she have begged for Maria's life to be saved instead of her own in EP3 (at least, I remember that happening in the VN).

Though, one could look at that Rosa torture scene as a Black Witch torture scene... even Maria says it during that she's not her mother but the Black Witch who looks like her mother.
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Old 2009-11-28, 11:03   Link #106
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I agree with Maho Momo.
If Rosa hates her daughter, she would never feel sorry after abusing Maria.
'cause if she really resented Maria, she will leave her eaten alive by the goats at EP 2 or begged for her own life rather than Maria's to be spared in EP 3...
Some people seem delighted of having her tortured Rosa to death in EP 4...
but after saw the scene, I was getting irritated by her more, instead of Rosa
Sure Rosa had done horrible things such destroying Sakutaro & lying about her vacation with boyfriend... but she also had done good things for her..O.O
She shouldn't just forget those things & butchered her mama like that!
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Old 2009-11-28, 11:10   Link #107
Vegitto-kun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kuro_usagi View Post
I agree with Maho Momo.
If Rosa hates her daughter, she would never feel sorry after abusing Maria.
'cause if she really resented Maria, she will leave her eaten alive by the goats at EP 2 or begged for her own life rather than Maria's to be spared in EP 3...
Some people seem delighted of having her tortured Rosa to death in EP 4...
but after saw the scene, I was getting irritated by her more, instead of Rosa
Sure Rosa had done horrible things such destroying Sakutaro & lying about her vacation with boyfriend... but she also had done good things for her..O.O
She shouldn't just forget those things & butchered her mama like that!
those are probably only just a few things that rosa has done.

constantly bitchslapping her is evil enough for me
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Old 2009-11-28, 11:21   Link #108
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If we take that torture scene as a dream sequence then it's very bias - Maria can easily believe Rosa is just like that (or rather 'black witch' rosa).
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Old 2009-11-28, 11:36   Link #109
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but then again

who says its a dream it might of been the meta world
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Old 2009-11-28, 12:05   Link #110
Thunder Book
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I didn't like Maria until Episode 4. After that, I felt much more sympathy for her.
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Old 2009-11-28, 13:06   Link #111
Kaiba
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I viewed that scene as meta-world, just as Rosa's meal in the aftermath of Episode 2.
Also, just as a side note, I will go ahead and say that many people (including myself) hypothesize that Rosa never actually destroyed Sakutarou. Remember that we're seeing this from the point of view of Maria's diary, whom can obviously be heavily biased.

Maria I'll admit I find insufferable, and while Rosa's beatings are bad, I can somewhat sympathize with her as she's highly concerned that Maria is simply refusing to adapt to human society, which will be a problem for her in the future.
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Old 2009-11-28, 13:16   Link #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
I viewed that scene as meta-world, just as Rosa's meal in the aftermath of Episode 2.
Also, just as a side note, I will go ahead and say that many people (including myself) hypothesize that Rosa never actually destroyed Sakutarou. Remember that we're seeing this from the point of view of Maria's diary, whom can obviously be heavily biased.

Maria I'll admit I find insufferable, and while Rosa's beatings are bad, I can somewhat sympathize with her as she's highly concerned that Maria is simply refusing to adapt to human society, which will be a problem for her in the future.
You also have to look at it from Maria's point of view though. Magic and witches are her form of escapism from life, the more she learns about witches and the more she believes, the bigger her dream world becomes. She's at a point where her life is pretty sad, so she has to use fantasies to make herself happy.

Rosa isn't innocent in this since it's basically her fault that Maria's life is so bad to begin with. Even if Maria had no friends at school, she was starving for the love of her mother so that alone could have helped.

Both characters have problems. You can't really just say "MARIA IS RIGHT!! ROSA IS A TOTAL BITCH!!" or "ROSA IS RIGHT!! MARIA IS A TOTAL BRAT!!"... it's a bad cycle and form of thinking on both of their parts... but Rosa being the adult, started it... but if you look at her past and her family, you could imagine why she's like that in the first place.
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Old 2009-11-28, 13:39   Link #113
freezep0p
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maho Momo View Post
I doubt Rosa actually hates Maria... I still believe that part of the story was a dream or an illusion of some sort. Otherwise Rosa wouldn't feel badly after she abuses Maria nor would she protect her during the entirety of EP2 nor would she have begged for Maria's life to be saved instead of her own in EP3 (at least, I remember that happening in the VN).

Though, one could look at that Rosa torture scene as a Black Witch torture scene... even Maria says it during that she's not her mother but the Black Witch who looks like her mother.
I wouldn't necessarily count EP2/3 as proof that she cares about Maria, as it could be just as well argued that Rosa was the one who killed Maria in both those scenes.

I think part of Rosa hates Maria, but love and hate aren't mutually exclusive. The torturing scene probably just showed one side of her feelings; while she does resent Maria for getting in the way of her happiness, she probably hates herself more for feeling that way in the first place. Her main concern has always been with having people think she's a good mother than actually acting as one. But in the end, Maria's really the only one who's never judged her for it... well, at least not until episode 22.

I dunno, though. Like someone else said, it seems like they both have their own issues going on. I think Maria's more of a victim than Rosa in that her craziness is a result of the circumstances rather than her own choices, but... Maria *can* be pretty obnoxious, so I can't blame Rosa entirely.
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Old 2009-11-28, 14:31   Link #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freezep0p View Post
I wouldn't necessarily count EP2/3 as proof that she cares about Maria, as it could be just as well argued that Rosa was the one who killed Maria in both those scenes.

I think part of Rosa hates Maria, but love and hate aren't mutually exclusive. The torturing scene probably just showed one side of her feelings; while she does resent Maria for getting in the way of her happiness, she probably hates herself more for feeling that way in the first place. Her main concern has always been with having people think she's a good mother than actually acting as one. But in the end, Maria's really the only one who's never judged her for it... well, at least not until episode 22.

I dunno, though. Like someone else said, it seems like they both have their own issues going on. I think Maria's more of a victim than Rosa in that her craziness is a result of the circumstances rather than her own choices, but... Maria *can* be pretty obnoxious, so I can't blame Rosa entirely.
I can't say anything to the EP2 scene but I thought there was red that denied that Rosa killed Maria in the EP3 scene.
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Old 2009-11-28, 14:53   Link #115
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Could someone explain to me why exactly people think Rosa may not have destroyed Sakutaro? I never quite understood the reasoning behind it.

Spoiler for Ange and Episode 4:
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Old 2009-11-28, 15:27   Link #116
Kaiba
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I don't feel like elaborating on it due to VN spoiler, but here are some basic premises:
1. I find the story presented by Maria regarding Sakutarou's destruction completely unbelievable, particularly with regards to the behavior of the social worker.
2. The 1986 is definitely not Maria's first visit to Rokkenjima. I hold she's been there for previous family conferences, took Sakutarou to one of them, and lost it.
3. Maria refused to accept that Sakutarou was lost, and so re-created him as an imaginary friend, hence his rebirth as shown when he was made a human... thing.
4. Rosa destroyed the imaginary Sakutarou on that night that things went bad, declaring that there is no Sakutarou and that Maria needs to get over losing the stupid doll, which destroyed the image in her mind.

I'm not stating where I think Sakutarou is due to spoilers, but these are the basic premises.
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Old 2009-11-28, 16:52   Link #117
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I don't see any reason to believe Sakutaro's death was faked or misinterpreted. Yes it may be selective memories, but at the same time this is apparently recorded in Maria's diary (the one Ange reads). Besides if Maria just lost Sakutaro at Rokkenjima then I'm sure one of the servants would have noticed and just call Rosa about it. Even if Rosa didn't want Maria to have Sakutaro anymore I'm sure one servant would have been nice enough to give the toy back when Maria came to Rokkenjima again (like Shannon or something). Dead =/= Lost.

Ange said the last conference she went to (1985) was when she got expelled from the Mariage Sociere. Back then Maria had Sakutaro still. So I doubt Maria lost him there.
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Old 2009-11-28, 17:22   Link #118
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The main problem with Sakutaro being lost instead of ripped apart is that Maria's treatment of Rosa during Problem Child/Wonderful World of Witches suddenly loses most of its meaning.
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Old 2009-11-28, 18:33   Link #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
I don't feel like elaborating on it due to VN spoiler, but here are some basic premises:
1. I find the story presented by Maria regarding Sakutarou's destruction completely unbelievable, particularly with regards to the behavior of the social worker.
2. The 1986 is definitely not Maria's first visit to Rokkenjima. I hold she's been there for previous family conferences, took Sakutarou to one of them, and lost it.
3. Maria refused to accept that Sakutarou was lost, and so re-created him as an imaginary friend, hence his rebirth as shown when he was made a human... thing.
4. Rosa destroyed the imaginary Sakutarou on that night that things went bad, declaring that there is no Sakutarou and that Maria needs to get over losing the stupid doll, which destroyed the image in her mind.

I'm not stating where I think Sakutarou is due to spoilers, but these are the basic premises.
Rosa is filthy rich by any normal standards. She just bribed the social worker off.
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Old 2009-11-28, 22:56   Link #120
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And as Rosa said - they had no proof Maria was being abused other than being kept home along late nights. Maria herself never said she was being abused by Rosa. If she did THEN child services could do something. But she loves Rosa too much to fault her (even after Sakutaro is ripped to pieces she blames the black witch rather than her mother)
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