The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya - Episode 16 Discussion / Poll [2009 added ep. 6]

[Eak]

More slo-mo in this iteration.. haha

[panzerfan]

Hmm... I have just thought of a parody to this current situation. Here's a few minutes of photoshop hackjob.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by monir

Is it too harsh for me to wish Kadokawa should receive some sort of tangible backlash which would decisively help them to reconsider their tactics and serve it as a future reference for the other anime industry? I agree with you. Casual fans may not make up for most of their consumable goods such as anime and games. The question is how will the faithful ones are receiving this stunt/ballsy-act? Are the getting equally frustrated? Is Kadokawa taking its adoring fanbase who contribute to their economy the most for granted? Yes, time will tell.

Well, I think the real question basically comes down to what the lasting impact is. I mean, will this particular set of DVDs sell less than your average Haruhi set? No doubt, but I'm sure they accounted for that when coming up with this idea in the first place. (I'm still interested to see if the DVD solicitations will be the way the rumour suggests or not.) My basic premise is that a lot of the people who have given up may have only given up "for now", like (as W-General alludes to) what happens during filler arcs in shounen shows. When the show goes back to the core material, I think much of the interest will return (especially if the continuation is high-quality and true to the source material).

Originally Posted by mokuseimaru

One thing I'd like to know is: what kind of ratings has the show been getting? The only sites I've found for that are in Japanese.

Well, nobody really cares about the ratings for shows that air on local stations past midnight. It's spread over some ~10 different stations all airing at different days/times anyway depending on the area the viewer lives in. It's like getting ratings for infomercials -- the generally-accepted measure of success is in merchandise sales. That's why everyone's thinking about the DVDs.

[Vexx]

This seems to be a major endurance test for attention-span. If you're *watching* rather than going "omfg not again" (well... you can be doing both I guess) - there's a lot of subtle things going on, especially in this episode.

That really seems to be what it boils down to -- patience and attention-span. Its like the ability to sit patiently for four hours for that perfect photo of a rare bird or something.

My only remark about "casual fans" is this: if you haven't spent money on Haruhi merchandise, you can rage away but you really don't matter to KyoAni (or any other business for that matter). If you've purchased goods, CDs, figures, DVDs, etc.... then you matter.

Personally, I think they could have accomplished the same thing in 3 episodes and wait to see how the DVD version of this season plays out.... I'm still wondering if they plan to re-release the entire series as a SHnY 2.0 (including the first season eps again).

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Well, I guess that everyone wants people to agree with them, and would like people who are being unreasonable in their disagreement to moderate their point of view to be less hostile (which is basically what you said, stated in another way). But unlike politics, I don't think you can assume that everyone is "loyal" to a party just because they have certain points of view. I think that the only "side" most people take is their own. Maybe I'm wrong, though, but that's always how I've tried to perceive it anyway...

I see your point.

Well, really, whatever decisions were made about the structure of this anime were done months and months ago. These shows have huge production lead-times. Saying something now about an arguably bad decision they made a long time ago isn't really going to change anything in our present.

You could very well be right there. I'm thinking long-term here (Season 3 and beyond here). I have a working theory on what's going on here that I'll admit up front is an educated guess at best, but if it's right... I think that the Haruhi franchise is heading in the wrong direction on a long-term basis.

There are two noticeable changes between this season and Season 1 Haruhi.

1) The art style differences. Yes, this is only pronounced in a couple new episodes, but even in the more... faithful to Season 1, we'll say... episodes, there are subtle differences. Kyon, Koizumi, Mikuru, and Yuki look the same for the most part.... but Haruhi's appearance has changed.

2) The Endless Eight episodes - 5 and counting now.


I personally think that these two differences are intricately related.

Let's say KyoAni intentionally wants Haruhi, for whatever reason, to gradually switch over to the K-ON art style. Well, I think that even most fans of that art style will admit that it's an art style that works best with slice of life/comedy scenes... and not, say, scenes like Yuki Nagato vs. Ryoko Asakura in Season 1. Or Day of Sagittarius. It's hard to imagine the K-ON art style effectively conveying sci-fi action scenes, in short.

So, KyoAni, realizing this themselves, decides to take the most slice of life section (i.e. the section most compatible with the K-ON art style) of the Haruhi novels and milk them for all their worth - using the time loop set-up as an excuse to give us the current lengthy Endless Eight arc. And to put off the Disappearance arc as long as they can... and/or, perhaps, replace a large chunk of it with anime original material.

In my mind, at least, it's not unthinkable - the Shakugan no Shana source material involved a plotline very different from the anime original material that Shana season 2 gave us.

A couple things I'm intending to keep a close eye on...

1) What episode 8 looks like since that will be handled by the original Season 1 Haruhi team. If this doesn't have Haruhi looking virtually identical to her Season 1 appearance, then we likely have a permanent art style change.

2) Whether or not Endless Eight has an anime original ending. At this juncture, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if it does have an anime original ending.


The more "anime original" I see, and the more K-ON art style I see... the more I think that the Disappearance arc might not be what most fans are hoping for. And if you want the Disappearance arc to be faithful to the source material, and to simply look right... now's probably the time to let KyoAni know what you think about Endless Eight.

Just a theory, I'll admit. But I think it makes sense, at least for now.

So... this is the bottom line for my concern.

[mokuseimaru]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Well, nobody really cares about the ratings for shows that air on local stations past midnight. It's spread over some ~10 different stations all airing at different days/times anyway depending on the area the viewer lives in. It's like getting ratings for infomercials -- the generally-accepted measure of success is in merchandise sales. That's why everyone's thinking about the DVDs.

Ah, so am I to take it that Haruhi is distributed like a syndicated show would be in America, and the 1:00 A.M. Thursday night/Friday morning airing just happens to be the first one?

I guess I'm a little confused. Do the sponsors (not just Kadokawa but the minor sponsors like Lantis) get a cut of the DVD sales? I was under the impression that the point of sponsoring a show was for ad time, not for direct profit---or do otaku-drawing shows like Haruhi work under a different system?

[Rice_slayer]

I give it a 1 because this is just stupid, but this was probably the best version, no stills, all animated and great art quality, Haruhi was K-Onified! Endless end goes on for 8 episodes? I honestly don't care anymore, By the time it end's school will roll around and I will have HOMEWORK to work on...

[Jintor]

Well that was a whackjob episode.

It felt very jazzy, for some odd reason.

[Dr. Casey]

Just finished watching the Mazui subs. Honestly, I didn't enjoy it as much as the previous episode. The lighter atmosophere and more casual tone made it that much less immersive for me, and the greater amount of new content (Cicade release taking place at the temple, merry-go-round scene) weakened the feeling of deja vu.

As for things I liked, I was able to relate to Yuki's frustration more in this episode than the previous. Things like Kyon's shock at Koizumi's revelation are almost grating because none of it matters anyway, because in less than two weeks this version of the S.O.S. Brigade (Sans Yuki) won't even exist. The complete meaninglessness of everything that happens is becoming more drilled in with each episode, and I wouldn't blame Yuki if she snapped and killed everyone the next time Kyon goes "What?! 15,522 times?!?!?!??'11111" The four loops of Haruhi's exit at the end were also interesting, and I liked the expressions of the group more than usual this time around, kind of defeated, but also as though they've had enough and are ready to do something about it. ... as soon as Kyon stops losing his nerve and voice for whatever reason at the restaurant, anyway. Oh yeah, and the merry-go-round part was fun, too.

So as far as the repeats go, I'd place Endless Eights IV at the top, Endless Eights III at the bottom, and Endless Eights V somewhere in between.

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

You could very well be right there. I'm thinking long-term here (Season 3 and beyond here). I have a working theory on what's going on here that I'll admit up front is an educated guess at best, but if it's right... I think that the Haruhi franchise is heading in the wrong direction on a long-term basis.

There are two noticeable changes between this season and Season 1 Haruhi.

Spoiler for space:

1) The art style differences. Yes, this is only pronounced in a couple new episodes, but even in the more... faithful to Season 1, we'll say... episodes, there are subtle differences. Kyon, Koizumi, Mikuru, and Yuki look the same for the most part.... but Haruhi's appearance has changed.

2) The Endless Eight episodes - 5 and counting now.


I personally think that these two differences are intricately related.

Let's say KyoAni intentionally wants Haruhi, for whatever reason, to gradually switch over to the K-ON art style. Well, I think that even most fans of that art style will admit that it's an art style that works best with slice of life/comedy scenes... and not, say, scenes like Yuki Nagato vs. Ryoko Asakura in Season 1. Or Day of Sagittarius. It's hard to imagine the K-ON art style effectively conveying sci-fi action scenes, in short.

So, KyoAni, realizing this themselves, decides to take the most slice of life section (i.e. the section most compatible with the K-ON art style) of the Haruhi novels and milk them for all their worth - using the time loop set-up as an excuse to give us the current lengthy Endless Eight arc. And to put off the Disappearance arc as long as they can... and/or, perhaps, replace a large chunk of it with anime original material.

In my mind, at least, it's not unthinkable - the Shakugan no Shana source material involved a plotline very different from the anime original material that Shana season 2 gave us.

A couple things I'm intending to keep a close eye on...

1) What episode 8 looks like since that will be handled by the original Season 1 Haruhi team. If this doesn't have Haruhi looking virtually identical to her Season 1 appearance, then we likely have a permanent art style change.

2) Whether or not Endless Eight has an anime original ending. At this juncture, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if it does have an anime original ending.


The more "anime original" I see, and the more K-ON art style I see... the more I think that the Disappearance arc might not be what most fans are hoping for. And if you want the Disappearance arc to be faithful to the source material, and to simply look right... now's probably the time to let KyoAni know what you think about Endless Eight.

Just a theory, I'll admit. But I think it makes sense, at least for now.

So... this is the bottom line for my concern.

Your art notes are an alarm bell for me as well... watching for ep 8. Companies are not immune to mistakes. They do make strategic errors. I hope this isnt one.
The k-onification... I liked the k-on art style but not in my SHnY... can you imagine SHnY done in AzuDa style? ;p However this episode seems less k-on,ish so fingers crossed.

[Animexcel]

Originally Posted by Rice_slayer

I give it a 1 because this is just stupid, but this was probably the best version, no stills, all animated and great art quality, Haruhi was K-Onified! Endless end goes on for 8 episodes? I honestly don't care anymore, By the time it end's school will roll around and I will have HOMEWORK to work on...

stupid > best version, all animated, great art quality?

[Jintor]

I'm going to go out on a limb now and tentatively hope that they'll break the loop next week.

Did anybody else love it when they did the "Maybe I should do it" line from Kyon's POV? Closest to the novels yet!

[Ashlotte]

Well like last week theirs no real shock and awe left just the thought "Does Kyoani really have that much money to burn to keep making these?".

Honestly during such a rough ecnomic time I just gotta scratch my head and wonder what the point of throwing away so much money is...If they wanna troll just reair the same episode over and over instead of reanimating and redoing the VA work everytime no?

[Karlson]

Still going huh? Lawl

Well I said I wouldn't continue watching it till I knew that the arc ends but it's been 2 weeks and I really do want to see where the changes are now. Downloading the sub as I type this, I think I'm ready for another round of endless 8 (or maybe 2 because I still havn't seen the 5th episode yet) especially after recently enduring the SD (nice boat) finale and nothing could be worse than that.

[Jintor]

Originally Posted by Ashlotte

If they wanna troll just reair the same episode over and over instead of reanimating and redoing the VA work everytime no?

Logically speaking, therefore they can't be trolling.

On the other hand, since when has Haruhi known logic?

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

The more "anime original" I see, and the more K-ON art style I see... the more I think that the Disappearance arc might not be what most fans are hoping for. And if you want the Disappearance arc to be faithful to the source material, and to simply look right... now's probably the time to let KyoAni know what you think about Endless Eight.

I don't really buy your theory for a few reasons.

First, I don't think any of these "loop" episodes can be considered a "shift in art style", because it's pretty clear that they've been giving the different episodes to different directors and allowed them more freedom than they might have otherwise gotten. (For example, this week's episode was directed by the director of Air/Kanon/Clannad (who also did K-On 6 and 12 -- the concert episodes), with the Animation directed by the Chief Animation Director for the same.) Each episode reflects that team's choice of style in terms of character design quirks, animation, shots/framing, effects, and so on. The Episode Director also draws their own storyboards for their assigned episode, so they have a lot of freedom to take it in their own direction. They haven't really been making an effort to stick to one look or style, and this episode looked distinctly less "K-On" than the last. So it's not really a trend.

Second, I don't buy the theory that "this is a sign that they've stopped being faithful to the novels" as a general rule. They're in a timeloop that's gone para-novel for a reason that's pretty inherent to the way they're doing the loop (i.e. the novel only covered the final loop, and since it doesn't describe other loops in detail, they had to write themselves a way of having the freedom to do what they wanted without making it obvious when it was going to end -- that's part of the mystery, even to novel readers). This doesn't mean that, when they go back to adapting the "canon" content, they're going to change it up to somehow be more "slice of life-esque", and certainly not just to fit a certain artstyle that they want to use.

The overall art style has shifted a little bit from the earlier style (you can see that reflected in all the new promo art), but that just reflects what the artists have been working on most recently and the passage of time (it has been 3 years). I don't know if they'll ever go back to exactly the style of Season 1, because they don't draw in exactly the same way anymore. They're people, not machines. Inside this loop, they're taking more liberties with the artstyle probably because they know that otherwise people would be watching the exact same thing x times and this makes it a bit more interesting. But it's not some sort of giant conspiracy to somehow turn Haruhi into a slice of life show. These episodes are only slice of life-esque because that's what the novel equivalent of this time loop contained. Future chapters will be like... future chapters, global three-years-later art-shift aside.

Originally Posted by mokuseimaru

Ah, so am I to take it that Haruhi is distributed like a syndicated show would be in America, and the 1:00 A.M. Thursday night/Friday morning airing just happens to be the first one?

I guess I'm a little confused. Do the sponsors (not just Kadokawa but the minor sponsors like Lantis) get a cut of the DVD sales? I was under the impression that the point of sponsoring a show was for ad time, not for direct profit---or do otaku-drawing shows like Haruhi work under a different system?

It's more distributed the way an infomercial is distributed, with distributors buying airtime on various stations and the "sponsors" being the various companies selling merchandise related to the show. For example, I think the main sponsors for Haruhi are Kadokawa (novel/manga/anime publisher) and Lantis (music publisher). In some cases a TV station may pitch in some money in the production in exchange for having air exclusively/first on their network (TBS, TV Tokyo, WOWOW, some others do this), but this is just a UHF broadcast. This is not a syndicated show, and it doesn't make its primary money by advertising on the air (because, let's face it, what's the viewership like at 1am?).

[Proto]

Honestly during such a rough ecnomic time I just gotta scratch my head and wonder what the point of throwing away so much money is...If they wanna troll just reair the same episode over and over instead of reanimating and redoing the VA work everytime no?

Totally right, and they had probably thought of that as well. So, if you put yourself in their shoes, why do you think they still did it?

[Ikonomi]

Uh, let me just jump in here without reading past page 10 of this thread and say...

Really wonderful art and good animation this time around. There were a couple rough spots, but overall it was beautifully done and felt closer to traditional Haruhi than last week (as nice as last week was).

The overall atmosphere of the episode was very light -- a nice change of pace. What was up with the guys hanging around Mikuru and Yuki!??! Vultures, all of them!

Kyon... Who pedals their bike with their heels? You did it with the arch of your foot last time. No wonder you're tired by the time you get to the pool.

Itsuki... A Speedo, seriously? Well, I've been thinking about your exaggerated gestures for the past couple days (I have no idea why), and was happy to see them return in this episode. I love it.

Mikuru... You're so hot and useless. I love you.

Haruhi... You're so hot. And you managed to be insanely cute with that little brigade-leading march.

Yuki... Nice beetle. I'm sorry you're stuck in this recursion. I actually started to feel bad for you this time around, remembering how you used to sit and read by the window in the club room. So innocent.

So, I'm addressing the characters directly now. This is a sign that I've watched too many iterations of Endless Eight.

The playground thing -- was it a merry-go-round? -- Haruhi was spinning the brigade on was an excellent metaphor, as was the camera work in the scene. Very nice.

The mini-recursion of Haruhi near the end was great. It actually, ACTUALLY made me think for a minute that we were going to see the end of the loop! I have to admit I enjoyed it.

Kyon's clock was another nice suspense-generating device. With each tick I entertained the notion that something was actually going to happen at the last second. That would be too predictable, right? I cracked up when it hit midnight and the screen went black. Well done. Even though I knew the loop was not going to be broken this week, the buildup was surprisingly enjoyable.

Thus ends my rambling, poorly-formatted series of thoughts on Endless Eight V. This is V, right? Time to go change my signature and look forward to next week!

[Ashlotte]

No idea at this point...Maybe I could formulate one if I was better informed about the economics of how they sell their products over their...From the perspective of someone that works in American retail it makes utterly no sense, but thats probably not anywhere near the equivalent of how things work in the Japanese market...so...dunno...

The idea of basically throwing money away to keep making the same product that you know you can't sell for nearly as much if you just took that effort and put it into something new...Yea no clue flys in the face of all I know about sales and making a profit...

I'd say their doing it for the "lulz" but last I checked even if they are artists its still a business out to make money...

[kk2extreme]

hang in there 2 more eps to break the loop

or press ctrl + C to break it as to break a infinite loop in computer process