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View Poll Results: Spice and Wolf II - Episode 3 Rating
Perfect 10 75 63.03%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 35 29.41%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 6 5.04%
7 out of 10 : Good 3 2.52%
6 out of 10 : Average 0 0%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 119. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2009-07-26, 18:07   Link #121
Deathkillz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
There's certainly a bit of arrogance to him. And he's being very, very rash, but it's understandable:
- he's a kid;
- he's in love, probably for the first time;
- if he lets her get away now, he may never see her again;
- he has no close friend to give him some perspective in such matters.

And all he's done is basically tell Lawrence: please let me give you 1000 silver Trennies. He hasn't tried to buy Horo as if she was property. He just did the only thing he could to even have the legal right to ask for Horo's hand. Also of note, he hasn't tried anything as distasteful as saying "I'll free you from your debt if you agree to marry me". Or to buy her debt to hold it himself.
Noteworthy points.

Amati is very young and still quite naive but I still can't see his love for Horo anything more than "puppy love". You can never find better than Horo but you can fine a close one, so he is rather rushing things a bit too much. Granted that he hasn't said he will buyout Horo or anything, he still is going to ask for her hand (and under normal circumstances the girl should be saying yes in his mind which is why he is doing this in the first place). I don't think he would just blindly go into something like this if he doesn't think he has any chance of winning. He wants Horo and may do everything he can to get her.

Whether he will use force or not will change my opinion on him but for now, the book is still open to judge.
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Last edited by Deathkillz; 2009-07-26 at 18:32. Reason: me baka..
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Old 2009-07-26, 18:09   Link #122
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Doesn't this, somewhat, make Lawrence the bad guy? He's basically conning a gullible kid out of 1000 silver coins. Last time I checked, 2000 is enough to start your own business and set up shop (I believe Lawrence said so way back in the first arc of the first season).
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Old 2009-07-26, 18:12   Link #123
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It does make him somewhat of a big headed prick since he is taking advantage of the relationship he has with Horo when making the decision on the contract. Before the ending incident he had a 100% surefire way of knowing that he will come out of this with nothing but profit. Now he is screwed
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Old 2009-07-26, 18:20   Link #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deathkillz View Post
Noteworthy points.

Amati is very young and still quite naive but I still can't see his love for Horo anything more than "puppy love". You can always find better so he is rather rushing things a bit too much.
Better than Horo? Bite your tongue!

Besides, it's already been established he doesn't like the local girls. How many girl travelers do you think there are?

Quote:
Granted that he hasn't said he will buyout Horo or anything, he still is going to ask for her hand (and under normal circumstances the girl should be saying yes in his mind which is why he is doing this in the first place). I don't think he would just blindly go into something like this if he doesn't think he has any chance of winning.
Well, rationally, he's quite a good party, especially for a poor commoner girl. He's well off, generous, kind, good mannered, young, and handsome. A lot of girls would say "yes" to him.

Quote:
He wants Horo and may do everything he can to get her.

Whether he will use force or not will change my opinion on him but for now, the book is still open to judge.
Well, so far, he's been earnest and quite straightforward. According to Mark, he won't stoop to using underhanded methods. Not even the level of underhandedness normal merchants would consider par for the course.

More pragmatically, he isn't an influential trading house. Even if he could hire a few toughs to beat up Lawrence... then what? It'd just bring down the law on him. It wouldn't get him anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuutsu View Post
Doesn't this, somewhat, make Lawrence the bad guy? He's basically conning a gullible kid out of 1000 silver coins. Last time I checked, 2000 is enough to start your own business and set up shop (I believe Lawrence said so way back in the first arc of the first season).
Yes. In Lawrence's defense, he never wanted that and did warn the kid that just paying him wouldn't mean Horo would decide to stay.
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Old 2009-07-26, 18:29   Link #125
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The only thing I hate about S&W II ep 3, is the torture of having to wait for episode 4. I'm hooked on this series.
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Old 2009-07-26, 18:31   Link #126
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Oh shi- what have I said...

Sorry Horo, gomen gomen gomen gomen ;___;

And I am being overly cautious since men can turn into beasts at the drop of a hat
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Old 2009-07-26, 19:25   Link #127
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It does make him somewhat of a big headed prick since he is taking advantage of the relationship he has with Horo when making the decision on the contract. Before the ending incident he had a 100% surefire way of knowing that he will come out of this with nothing but profit. Now he is screwed
guys, the reason that Lawrence accepted the contract was not because he wanted to make money, but because he didn't want to lose face as a merchant. Horo was the one that got the true from lawrence when he told her what happened. Reputation is a very important thing for a merchant. I am pretty sure that if Amati had made his offer a private matter that Lawrance would have refused the contract. That is why Amati did it in such a public matter, to force lawrance to not lose face in front of his fellow merchants.
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Old 2009-07-26, 20:20   Link #128
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Golthin, you bring up a VERY good point. I never thought about the reputation aspect of it. If Lawrence did, in fact, refuse that contract, then it would only detract from his logos.

To others, it would appear as if he's using the excuse of debt to keep her to him, possibly against her will. Especially if he refuses even if the contract completely waives her debt and allows her, a nun, an opportunity for emancipation.
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Old 2009-07-26, 20:32   Link #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deathkillz View Post
It does make him somewhat of a big headed prick since he is taking advantage of the relationship he has with Horo when making the decision on the contract. Before the ending incident he had a 100% surefire way of knowing that he will come out of this with nothing but profit. Now he is screwed
This was my point exactly in my previous post.

Lawrence was willing to gamble his relationship with Horo for money. Even if this relationship was buolt on rock solid foundations (and the events at the end is already putting that on shaky ground), the mere fact that he's using it just for monetary gain undermines the sanctity of their relationship.
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Old 2009-07-26, 21:01   Link #130
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I get the point about the reputation, heck it was even stated in the episode that Lawrence can't back away from this. Still it doesn't mean he blindly went into it without thinking that it doesn't matter since Horo won't leave him any time soon.
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Old 2009-07-26, 23:46   Link #131
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after Horo came back, Lawrence saw the fur she was wearing and he asked her what story did she use to fool the guy. she explained what she told him. She told him that Lawrence saved her from some people and then that she got in debt with him and that she is travelling with him till she pays the debt. She didn't lie, but she kept some information about she travelling to find her home, and that if you look at it the debt was an excuse that Lawrence made to travel together.
yes, but she didn't say she is traveling with him because od debt. just that she is traveling with him until she pays it. that's a distinctive difference. she didn't say she is forced by lawrence to travel with him.

edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
This was my point exactly in my previous post.

Lawrence was willing to gamble his relationship with Horo for money. Even if this relationship was buolt on rock solid foundations (and the events at the end is already putting that on shaky ground), the mere fact that he's using it just for monetary gain undermines the sanctity of their relationship.
horo and lawrence already discused that in the episode, and came to a conclusion that that was "the lawrence thing" to do.
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Old 2009-07-27, 01:55   Link #132
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Originally Posted by Filozof View Post
yes, but she didn't say she is traveling with him because od debt. just that she is traveling with him until she pays it. that's a distinctive difference. she didn't say she is forced by lawrence to travel with him.
She said that traveling with him and praying for him was her way to repay that debt. I don't see the difference with "she's traveling with him because of the debt".
Quote:
edit:

horo and lawrence already discused that in the episode, and came to a conclusion that that was "the lawrence thing" to do.
More precisely, they said it was the grown-up thing to do. To refuse the contract would be manly, but ultimately childish.
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Old 2009-07-27, 08:26   Link #133
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What an amazing episode!

Hilarious, romantic, thrilling, sad... it had everything. Three cheers for the director!

Quote:
Originally Posted by judgment26 View Post
A word on the episode: this is one of the scenes I was really looking forward to seeing in animated form, and I must say, I am extremely pleased with how it turned out, which is exactly as I had imagined it. 10/10, hands down.
Same here!! Although I wish they would not follow the novel so eagerly. Some slight changes would be nice. As someone already pointed out, seeing Lawrence remain silent at such an important moment was really painful to watch.

Personally I hoped for something like:
Lawrence tearing apart his clothes and screaming "YES, LETS MAKE WOLFBABIES", similar to this scene in "Anchorman".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmvbcMLxdrU
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Old 2009-07-27, 12:02   Link #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FTGT View Post
What an amazing episode!

Hilarious, romantic, thrilling, sad... it had everything. Three cheers for the director!



Same here!! Although I wish they would not follow the novel so eagerly. Some slight changes would be nice. As someone already pointed out, seeing Lawrence remain silent at such an important moment was really painful to watch.

Personally I hoped for something like:
Lawrence tearing apart his clothes and screaming "YES, LETS MAKE WOLFBABIES", similar to this scene in "Anchorman".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmvbcMLxdrU
The reason why it is so good is because it follows novels closely, changes very rarely add anything good - look at Valkyria Chronicles it is full of changes but only a very small number of poeple are enjoying it.

So if you want more awesome episodes you'd better pray that they follow novels closely.
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Old 2009-07-27, 12:05   Link #135
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
She said that traveling with him and praying for him was her way to repay that debt. I don't see the difference with "she's traveling with him because of the debt".
it's not, you can't just translate this to: lawrence is forcing her to travel with him because of her debt. and you wrote "her way" which makes it even clearer.
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Old 2009-07-27, 13:17   Link #136
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Who said anything about "force"? The point is, she has an obligation to Lawrence, and the way ("her" is, as you remarked it, more unilateral than it should be) she repays it is by staying with Lawrence.

Just like a burger flipper flips burgers because he has a contractual obligation to do so, not because he particularly likes it. In the latter's case, he could chose to quit, in which case he ceases to be paid. In Horo's case, she could chose to quit, in which case she - in Amati's mind - has a debt she has no way to repay. In Rubinhagen, it means, if you remember S1, all the hair and teeth taken away, followed by a short, painful life in a lightless mine. I don't know what the laws in Kumerson have to say about it.
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Old 2009-07-27, 14:00   Link #137
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OMG could Koshimizu Ami have done any better? Im thinking not. Emotional, illogical, desperate and just losing it came out in one thunderous scene that had my jaw to the floor. We have seen Horo for the most part be that wise arrogant ever so self confident wolf that she is. We have seen her sad or flustered on a handful of occasions but never like this. If anything this showed Horo's human side. i dont know how else to put it but that way even though she is deity and a wolf. Feeling a sense of loss can make one very emotional and irrational and so for Horo to make the comment about mating one can see how desperate and alone she felt at that moment.

The question now is can Lawrence and her reconcile and what price will their relationship pay for Lawrence's basically making money off her since thats basically what hes doing. But then again if i were in his shoes and thought about the consequences of refusing the contract i might have done the same thing. I think it was hard choice honestly i dont know what i would have done. Amanti sure did manage to cause a lot of trouble i dont think badly of him since Horo is not Lawrences woman but still this is a difficult situation.

excellent
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Old 2009-07-27, 14:38   Link #138
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Who said anything about "force"? The point is, she has an obligation to Lawrence, and the way ("her" is, as you remarked it, more unilateral than it should be) she repays it is by staying with Lawrence.

Just like a burger flipper flips burgers because he has a contractual obligation to do so, not because he particularly likes it. In the latter's case, he could chose to quit, in which case he ceases to be paid. In Horo's case, she could chose to quit, in which case she - in Amati's mind - has a debt she has no way to repay. In Rubinhagen, it means, if you remember S1, all the hair and teeth taken away, followed by a short, painful life in a lightless mine. I don't know what the laws in Kumerson have to say about it.
this isn't how it goes.


this is what is known of crucial quotes in order of events:
Spoiler:


Spoiler:


Spoiler:
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Old 2009-07-27, 15:23   Link #139
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Yes, and...?

Horo uses a "sad tone of voice", and speaks of herself as an "ill-fated woman". How does any of that contradict what I said?

And from what Amati's said, she said her treatment hasn't been that good. Lawrence made no real effort to dispel that illusion, merely stating that despite everything, she might still wish to travel with him. Which, come to think of it, looks like no more than a way to wash his hands off the possibility that Horo might refuse Amati's proposal - for whatever reason.
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Old 2009-07-27, 15:42   Link #140
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Yes, and...?

Horo uses a "sad tone of voice", and speaks of herself as an "ill-fated woman". How does any of that contradict what I said?

And from what Amati's said, she said her treatment hasn't been that good. Lawrence made no real effort to dispel that illusion, merely stating that despite everything, she might still wish to travel with him. Which, come to think of it, looks like no more than a way to wash his hands off the possibility that Horo might refuse Amati's proposal - for whatever reason.
making up stuff doesn't make you right.
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