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Old 2004-03-05, 18:49   Link #61
Go-lytely
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Briareos
Well said babbito2k.

I'll add that I think westerners not taking animated erotica seriously is linked to many westerners not taking animation seriously in the first place. I doubt very much that a film like Grave of the Fireflies could have been made and marketed to great success in the US. People would say, "A what? A serious war drama as a cartoon? Yeah, right."

Cartoons (in the US) are still very strongly linked with children's entertainment. I get strange looks from some adults when I tell them I enjoy watching animated films and TV shows. I've heard people say, "Why would someone want to watch animated sex, when you can watch real people instead (porn films)?" Some westerners contend that the idea of animated sex is a perversion, clinging strongly to the idea that cartoons are just for kids. I've seen people comment online that those who watch animated erotica/porn are sad cases: "That's just pitiful, man, can't you get a girlfriend?"

Part of these points of view may be linked with the Puritan idea that sex is something inherently sinful, instead of a natural part of life. Living in the US, I can't help but feel that many Americans have a very immature (if that's the right word) ideas about the topic of sex in general.
Heavy Metal tried to break out of the idea that animation was a childrens medium. I thought it was pretty cool back in the day.
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Old 2004-03-05, 19:41   Link #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Go-lytely
Heavy Metal tried to break out of the idea that animation was a childrens medium. I thought it was pretty cool back in the day.
Jeez this was a big read. This is more than enough proof that hentai is a widely-known thing.

'round here('hippieville', CA, if you don't get the reference, GET OUT OF MY DAMN COUNTRY >.<) there's quite a decent amount of the stereotypical...what's that word? Otaku or whatever. They're usually..

1. White.
2. Rather obese.
3. Regularly wear all sorts of japanese shirts of which they have no idea what it says.
4. Watch Hentai regularly(if not religiously) and think they're slick about it.
5. Tell you all sorts of random crap(that usually is wrong) in japanese.(dear god, why is pinenut so friggin' long?!)
6. Watch ecchi/borderline Hentai shows(Love Hina..must...destroy..)

Bold 1: They often argue about this standpoint (Is hentai =anime and vice versa.) Unfortunately, anime is viewed here as 'only for children or people who like big breasts(hentai reference)' or 'fat losers with nothing better to do.' It's unfortunate.

Bold 2: Americans(and I assume just about any other country) LOVE ecchi and/or borderline hentai shows, since it's a lot more accepted, I'm not completely sure why, but I think it has to do with cheesy action movies that have borderline porno in it.

Hentai is by definition anime blah blah blah, I don't care. I think hentai isn't 'good enough' to be put in the same definition for anime. We have enough confused idiots, I'm just trying to avoid having more .
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Old 2004-03-05, 19:47   Link #63
babbito2k
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Go-lytely
Heavy Metal tried to break out of the idea that animation was a childrens medium. I thought it was pretty cool back in the day.
A lot of the Heavy Metal thing was an adaptation of French comics and the attitude the French seem to take, which is more open-minded and international. Some of the artists in Heavy Metal made an impact on the content of anime and manga, too.

In a way the casual/gratuitous nudity and adult themes of Heavy Metal (I still have a whole crate of them someplace) contributed to the way anime & manga were marketed, which I discussed earlier.

Whoa... looking at a March 1995 copy of HM (when it was in a state of decline) I find that the magazine itself was selling the following VHS anime titles (Japanese Animation on Video - It's Hot!) on a back page:

Dominion Tank Police dub
Harmagedon (wtf?!) sub
Project A-ko sub
MD Geist sub (ARGHHH! *howls in pain*)
Overfiend dub
Legend of the Demon Womb dub
Mermaid Forest sub
Laughing Target sub
Urotsukidoji OAV 5-pack
Venus Wars

Tentacle sex, military action, mecha, gothic "rumi"nations on human nature - they are all lumped together here with absolutely no warnings attached to the adults-only stuff. This is exactly what I was talking about - the indiscriminate marketing which made everything seem the same...


It seems like a bad time to reiterate that the "'hentai' is not anime" plaint doesn't get anywhere with me, but I don't want someone going "See? see? It's bad! It's confusing! It isn't good enough!" I am just backing up what I had to say in my answer to kj1980's question. After all, it's not the anime's fault that the different titles were sold in this idiotic fashion.
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Old 2004-03-05, 19:56   Link #64
Tzurial
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deralti

Hentai is by definition anime blah blah blah, I don't care. I think hentai isn't 'good enough' to be put in the same definition for anime. We have enough confused idiots, I'm just trying to avoid having more .
Hentai is anime. Just because you dont want hentai to be associated with -your- definition of anime doesnt make it any less a part of the anime realm. I dont necessarily like hentai and maybe it does turn pudgy otakus into pervy freaks, I dont know... but I do know that if someone was to ever say my squicky yaoi doujinshis werent really considered manga just because they perhaps consider it filth and dont want to put it in the same definition of what they read, I would have to kill them.
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Old 2004-03-05, 20:15   Link #65
Worldestroyer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deralti
Jeez this was a big read. This is more than enough proof that hentai is a widely-known thing.

'round here('hippieville', CA, if you don't get the reference, GET OUT OF MY DAMN COUNTRY >.<) there's quite a decent amount of the stereotypical...what's that word? Otaku or whatever. They're usually..

1. White.
2. Rather obese.
3. Regularly wear all sorts of japanese shirts of which they have no idea what it says.
4. Watch Hentai regularly(if not religiously) and think they're slick about it.
5. Tell you all sorts of random crap(that usually is wrong) in japanese.(dear god, why is pinenut so friggin' long?!)
6. Watch ecchi/borderline Hentai shows(Love Hina..must...destroy..)

Bold 1: They often argue about this standpoint (Is hentai =anime and vice versa.) Unfortunately, anime is viewed here as 'only for children or people who like big breasts(hentai reference)' or 'fat losers with nothing better to do.' It's unfortunate.

Bold 2: Americans(and I assume just about any other country) LOVE ecchi and/or borderline hentai shows, since it's a lot more accepted, I'm not completely sure why, but I think it has to do with cheesy action movies that have borderline porno in it.

Hentai is by definition anime blah blah blah, I don't care. I think hentai isn't 'good enough' to be put in the same definition for anime. We have enough confused idiots, I'm just trying to avoid having more .
1. I'm not white
2. I'm not obese (well not enough to have a man-rack)
3. Don't even own a shirt with anything asian written on it
4. I watch hentai religiously, although i don't think i'm "Slick" about it
5. I have never said a Japanese word in public as a replacment for english, and i usually bitch at my friends when they do.
6. I watch ecchi/borderline Hentai shows (Love Hina...Must find blow up dolls)

I do think Hentai is anime, by definition

And stop making fun of "Otaku's" or in other words, get of my geeky back.
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Last edited by Worldestroyer; 2004-03-06 at 18:26.
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Old 2004-03-06, 19:20   Link #66
Bullet2k4
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whooo damn..... didnt expect my topic to be this much.its sort of funny reading ya argue about this
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Old 2004-03-06, 20:30   Link #67
Evan
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I still think an anime is an anime ......no point saying whether it's hentai or not...........
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Old 2004-03-29, 08:52   Link #68
Briareos
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This guy usually says things so much better than I can:

http://www.animenation.net/news/askjohn.php?id=863
From the link above:
Quote:
Originally Posted by John of Animenation
Question:
Is hentai a disgusting, perverted version of anime to you? Is regular anime or hentai harder to make? Is hentai or regular anime more popular in America and Japan? Which one makes the most money? And which one do you like the most?

Answer:
I think my opinion of anime is similar to that of most devoted native Japanese fans. Anime is anime. It's a medium that covers a variety of genres and includes examples of atrocious quality and sheer artistic brilliance. Trying to distinguish a classification of "disgusting & perverted" anime opposed to "regular" anime is just arbitrary and illogical. Whether it deals with erotica or children's entertainment, Japanese animation is still Japanese animation. Certainly not every anime title is suitable or intended for every viewer, but there's no critical reason to try to separate and alienate adult anime from all other types of anime. In fact, I personally believe that such an action does a dis-service to the entire art form.

Personally, I may be disgusted by particular anime titles for a variety of reasons including their content or their technical execution, but I do happen to enjoy most erotic anime. As a legal adult I believe that's within my rights. And considering that entirely fictional animation does not impeach any living person's civil rights, nor has adult anime effected my social behavior in any noticeable way, I don't perceive any negative aspects to adult anime. (Note that I'm not arguing that adult anime has no negative effects on society. I'm stating only that I personally perceive no negative effect of erotic anime on society.) Erotica is a part of anime. It's just another genre covered by anime, no different from science fiction or action or romance or comedy. Furthermore, adult anime is also a legitimate target audience for anime in the same way that certain anime are designed for children, some are made for teen boys, and some anime is intended for adolescent females.

In order to be a true anime fan, one must acknowledge the existence and contribution of adult anime to the art form as a whole. It's perfectly reasonable to be a fan of certain anime titles, or certain types of anime, but to genuinely be a fan of the art form of Japanese animation, one must respect the entire spectrum of the art form. It's not necessary for an anime fan to like hentai; an anime fan need only acknowledge it. Attempting to sanitize one's view of Japanese animation by indiscriminately excluding hentai or vilifying hentai as a corruption of "pure" anime is simply narrow-minded and erroneous. The fact that adult anime exists is a confirmation of the diversity and creativity of Japanese animation. Anime isn't limited to targeting only mainstream viewers or children, and isn't limited to covering only "safe" and "pleasant" material. In fact, even many famous mainstream anime creators have also created adult anime or manga, including Masaki Kajishima, the creator of Tenchi Muyo; Kouta Hirano, the creator of Hellsing; Ken Akamatsu, the creator of Love Hina; Satoshi Urushihara, the creator of Plastic Little; Toshihiro Hirano, the creator of Iczer-One; Yu Aida, the creator of Gunslinger Girl; and Johji Manabe, the creator of Outlanders.

The existence of adult anime validates the presumption that Japanese animation is a legitimate art form and not just a collection of children's cartoons. As is the case with all legitimate art, some representations of anime are challenging or offensive because they challenge the preconceived expectations of spectators. To disregard these examples of anime just because they're offensive, or to exclude them from classification as a characteristic of anime, is to censor the very definition of anime itself.

Now whether mainstream or erotic anime is more difficult to make is probably a question that only Japanese animators can answer with authority. My suspicion, though, is that both types of anime have their own hurdles to clear. Based on the hideous production quality of many hentai anime series, it would seem as though adult anime requires a smaller budget and/or smaller production staff than typical mainstream anime. But there are also examples of adult anime that feature far better production quality than comparable mainstream anime titles. Common sense would suggest that adult anime may be easier to produce, though, based on the fact that it's probably easier to acquire funding for the production of adult anime. While financially sponsoring a mainstream anime title is always a risk, since the beginning of civilization there's always been a certainty that sex sells. So there's probably less risk involved in paying for the production of adult anime than mainstream anime, even though the market for mainstream anime is bigger.

Common sense would suggest that mainstream anime is much more popular and profitable than adult anime just because there's so much more mainstream anime produced than adult anime. On Japanese television alone there are nearly 100 different anime series airing new weekly episodes. On the other hand, there are roughly ten new adult anime titles released in Japan each month. So the average release of mainstream anime compared to adult anime in an average month is staggering: roughly 400 mainstream anime episodes released per month versus roughly 10 adult anime episodes per month. However, when we compare only direct-to-home-video releases we see an average of ten adult titles per month released in Japan versus an average of probably one mainstream OAV per month released in Japan nowadays.

In terms of financial return, based on sheer quantities of mainstream versus adult anime released in Japan, mainstream anime naturally brings in more gross profit than hentai. But on individual comparison, a typical Japanese anime DVD may contain 2-4 episodes retailing at 3,800 up to 5,800 yen while a hentai anime DVD will typically contain only one episode and retail at 5,800 up to 7,800 yen. So in an isolated, case by case basis, adult anime is probably far more profitable in Japan than mainstream anime is.
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Old 2004-03-29, 12:04   Link #69
rEkKaShInObI
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There are anime's about sex and friggin rape and all that good stuff. of course hentai is anime.
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