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Old 2009-07-30, 21:19   Link #161
AnbuItachi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paradox13 View Post
Your logic is flawed. By your logic, that would mean Zoro > everyone, because swords > everything. In fact, using your logic, I would deduce that Zoro > Mihawk because obviously 3 swords > 1.



Stop talking crap.

Besides, even if Zoro could beat Luffy because of this advantage, it wouldn't mean that Zoro is stronger then Luffy. Some fruits / weapons have an inherent advantage over others; this isn't an indication of the person's strength.

I didn't mean i think zoro > luffy because he has swords.. I meant zoro and luffy are about equal in power vs others. But vs each other, zoro has the advantage that many of luffy's opponents did not have because he uses swords. Its like luffy's rubber vs enel's lightning, just to a lesser extent. As I remember, luffy has yet to face a strong sword user because zoro always faces those who can cut, (during moria arc he faced that samurai dood, during baroque works he faced Mr. 1)
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Old 2009-07-30, 21:22   Link #162
C.A.
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As part of his dream and knowing that Luffy's greatest weakness is swords, he gladly takes on swordsmen. By supporting Luffy, he can reach his dream faster.
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Old 2009-07-30, 21:27   Link #163
andy
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Originally Posted by AnbuItachi View Post
we'll never really know unless they fight to the death in the manga which i dont think will happen, at least not soon.

I believe Zoro can defeat luffy simply because swords > rubber

"When Zoro took Luffy's pain, he did so because he wanted to know how much his captain took. He wanted to know how much stronger his captain was to him. And after taking it, he never recovered back to his full strength, it shows that Zoro does not have as much strength as Luffy yet, the strength of his determination, or Haki. Zoro learnt how much more his captain bears for the crew than himself, Zoro wants to know how strong this man he chose to follow is."

your logic is either flawed or you just didn't read the chapter correctly.

1) zoro was already seriously dmged. Kuma mentioned this. He said zoro doesn't have much life left and if he takes on luffy's pain/fatigue he would die. However, zoro didn't die, he even remained standing. He proved Kuma wrong
2) luffy recovered seriously fast after the battle with moria because Kuma took away all his damage and gave it to zoro.

I'm sure if luffy was the only guy up and all his crews were down and Kuma wanted Zoro's head, Luffy would do the same.
Dude kuma let him live , thats why he thank him when he saw him again . That line he said did not mean anything he just wanted to test him , well that's how it look to me .
Also luffy always recovers fast after his fights he a rubber man, half stuff that happens to luffy, Zoro would be dead from it.
Not that it really matters because in OP there no set power level luffy could beat enel because he is rubber but could not touch ID warden , where enel would give ID warden a hell of a fight .
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Old 2009-07-30, 21:30   Link #164
kakakka
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The fruit is his weapon, just as much as a sword is Zoro's. If a guy fought with a sword and a shield, you wouldn't take it away from him just because it provided him with 'unfair' advantages right?
I'm not saying anything about their weapons here, but comparing feeling pain and saying who's stronger based on that. (But then again, I might be reading backwards so...yeah ) I'm not talking about them fighting here
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For now, Luffy has defeated stronger opponents and took more damage than the rest of the crew...
Ok, A bit fair there then...
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Old 2009-07-30, 21:30   Link #165
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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Originally Posted by kakakka View Post
I think it's because in case of Moria and Croc, they were glorified by their status first then got beaten by Luffy (a rookie). Compared to Ace, Ace got beaten by Blackbeard (a prodigy) and Ace's glorification came after he got defeated.

Maybe that's why?
That sounds skeptical to me. People are just never able to provide valid reasons why they perceive Crocodile and Moria as being weak. Characters who lose are quickly dismissed as being refuse by these kinds of fans, and that's kind of sad.
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Old 2009-07-30, 21:38   Link #166
andy
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Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma View Post
That sounds skeptical to me. People are just never able to provide valid reasons why they perceive Crocodile and Moria as being weak. Characters who lose are quickly dismissed as being refuse by these kinds of fans, and that's kind of sad.
From my last post because in most other shows when you get beat early your weak . It's not the same way in OP hell croc would most likely kick all of CP9 ass rather easy. Thats why i am glad the we get so see some of old guys again.

Side note soon your going need a new sign blackbeard . BB crew has 6 members now.
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Old 2009-07-30, 21:44   Link #167
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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Originally Posted by andy View Post
From my last post because in most other shows when get beat early your weak . It's not the same way in OP hell croc would most likely kick all of CP9 ass rather easy.
Exactly. So many people have that same Shonen mentality (stronger foes always come after) with One Piece, but it simply doesn't always work that way in this story. Crocodile and Moria were offered shichibukai positions because of their tremendous power and notoriety. That being said, the WG acknowledges that they have great strength, so to call them weak is simply wrong.

And yes. I will need a new sig soon. I could make a collage of all the members, but I'm a little lazy to do that right now. I'm going to wait a little more in the meantime.
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Old 2009-07-30, 21:46   Link #168
kakakka
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That sounds skeptical to me. People are just never able to provide valid reasons why they perceive Crocodile and Moria as being weak. Characters who lose are quickly dismissed as being refuse by these kinds of fans, and that's kind of sad.
The mentality is kind of funny. But then blame them all we want, they're here for the show that they can cheer for the victors/idols, not losers.
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Old 2009-07-30, 21:48   Link #169
AnbuItachi
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Originally Posted by andy View Post
Dude kuma let him live , thats why he thank him when he saw him again . That line he said did not mean anything he just wanted to test him , well that's how it look to me .
Also luffy always recovers fast after his fights he a rubber man, half stuff that happens to luffy, Zoro would be dead from it.
Not that it really matters because in OP there no set power level luffy could beat enel because he is rubber but could not touch ID warden , where enel would give ID warden a hell of a fight .
zoro thanked kuma for letting the rest of his crew live... he was kind enough to only hurt him. thats why he thanked him. you think kuma would tell exactly how much damage zoro can take before he died? even chopper was like zoro was really close to death. i highly doubt kuma can control the damage that well
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Old 2009-07-30, 21:51   Link #170
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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Originally Posted by kakakka View Post
The mentality is kind of funny. But then blame them all we want, they're here for the show that they can cheer for the victors/idols, not losers.
People might as well stop cheering for Luffy then since he has quite the loss record so far. You know what it might be? The majority of people just don't like bad guys. I'm like one of the only few people that's actually cheering on the World Government and hoping that they'll prevail in this war. Having the good guys win all the time sucks.
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Old 2009-07-30, 21:52   Link #171
Phenomenal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Actually, C.A.'s quote indicates only that Zoro and Luffy (and Sanji) are strong.
Not really, it is saying Zoro has a high battle capability like Luffy. Capability is one's ability to perform and Zoro's is as High as Luffy's, which means just alike, as strong. But I'm not gonna get into an argument about semantics.. I appreciate C.A. and Kumanri's [member from another forum] translations on the page.

Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A.
Only when fighting an opponent like Lucci, it will differentiate Luffy and Zoro's strength. Zoro can take a whole lot of beating and blood loss, but at his level can he take on opponents Luffy has faced?
The same can be asked of Luffy..Can he take on somebody like Daz Bonnes?

Quote:
When Zoro took Luffy's pain, he did so because he wanted to know how much his captain took. He wanted to know how much stronger his captain was to him. And after taking it, he never recovered back to his full strength, it shows that Zoro does not have as much strength as Luffy yet, the strength of his determination, or Haki. Zoro learnt how much more his captain bears for the crew than himself, Zoro wants to know how strong this man he chose to follow is.

In the first place Kuma showed Zoro Luffy's pain because he wants to show Zoro just how great of a captain Luffy is. Luffy was a captain who willingly bears burden for his crew. Zoro accepts it because he wants to help his captain bear part of the burden, which he shows that he can't do so yet, becoming weak and failing to protect the crew against Kizaru.
Luffy couldn't protect anyone against Kizaru either..And he was Fatigued from fighting a Pacafista. Also, Did you forget Zoro fought Ryumma, TOOK damage from Odz, fought Kuma and THEN took all the pain Luffy took from Moria and his people? Zoro was suppose to die after all of that but he still survived. It was all to show that Zoro could take Luffy's place, by accepting his suffering and he did that. Luffy was good after all of that because Kuma gave all his pain to Zoro.

Not too mention it speaks highly of Zoro's dream for Kuma to even consider taking the future strongest of swordsman in exchange for the future pirate king!! Kuma was even in awe of such an ambition.
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Old 2009-07-30, 21:58   Link #172
kakakka
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Having the good guys win all the time sucks.
Haha, true.

When the Straw-Hats got defeated in the Saobody(?) Archipelago, I felt a bit relieved. First, since I think that was a big development to their outlook in fighting as a crew. Second, it kind of balance a bit on their almost clean slate of victories.

About hating bad guys, the only villain I hated in OP is Enel. Forgot why, but the rest of the villains/antagonists are amusing its so hard to really hate them.
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Old 2009-07-30, 22:08   Link #173
C.A.
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Originally Posted by Phenomenal View Post
The same can be asked of Luffy..Can he take on somebody like Daz Bonnes?

Luffy couldn't protect anyone against Kizaru either..And he was Fatigued from fighting a Pacafista. Also, Did you forget Zoro fought Ryumma, TOOK damage from Odz, fought Kuma and THEN took all the pain Luffy took from Moria and his people? Zoro was suppose to die after all of that but he still survived. It was all to show that Zoro could take Luffy's place, by accepting his suffering and he did that. Luffy was good after all of that because Kuma gave all his pain to Zoro.

Not too mention it speaks highly of Zoro's dream for Kuma to even consider taking the future strongest of swordsman in exchange for the future pirate king!! Kuma was even in awe of such an ambition.
Luffy can take on anyone except sword or blade users, its his weakness. I mentioned several posts above that Zoro is supporting Luffy by dealing with that weakness. A weakness does not determine overall strength.

Against opponents who are not weaknesses to both Luffy and Zoro, Luffy has shown to be able to do better. Luffy has shown that he has a greater capacity and potential, he was able to stretch his ability to unknown potentials.

Zoro definitely is strong and will become the strongest swordsman. But at this point his, power and potential is still limited. He acknowledges that Luffy is a stronger man than him, its the reason he willingly follows Luffy for.

After experiencing Luffy's pain, I'm sure he will grow to truly match Luffy very closely. At this point, judging from everything that has been shown in the anime, Zoro is still not as strong as Luffy. Even when Zoro fought Luffy, using swords, Luffy's greatest weakness, Zoro is only able to fight Luffy to a draw.
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Old 2009-07-30, 22:09   Link #174
andy
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Originally Posted by Phenomenal View Post
Not really, it is saying Zoro has a high battle capability like Luffy. Capability is one's ability to perform and Zoro's is as High as Luffy's, which means just alike, as strong. But I'm not gonna get into an argument about semantics.. I appreciate C.A. and Kumanri's [member from another forum] translations on the page.



The same can be asked of Luffy..Can he take on somebody like Daz Bonnes?



Luffy couldn't protect anyone against Kizaru either..And he was Fatigued from fighting a Pacafista. Also, Did you forget Zoro fought Ryumma, TOOK damage from Odz, fought Kuma and THEN took all the pain Luffy took from Moria and his people? Zoro was suppose to die after all of that but he still survived. It was all to show that Zoro could take Luffy's place, by accepting his suffering and he did that. Luffy was good after all of that because Kuma gave all his pain to Zoro.

Not too mention it speaks highly of Zoro's dream for Kuma to even consider taking the future strongest of swordsman in exchange for the future pirate king!! Kuma was even in awe of such an ambition.
I think your wrong there kuma was in awe of him willing to give up his dream of being the strongest sword man so luffy can live . Kuma ask with ambition as high as that ,why would he go to his death . Zoro said if i can't protect my crew and captain my dream is useless luffy is man who will become the pirate king.

I never saw it as zoro could take luffy place , it was to show how close zoro has gotten to luffy and how much he respect him. When they first meet zoro said he would kill luffy if got in the way of his dream , now zoro is willing to give up his life , his dream so luffy can become Pirate king.
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Old 2009-07-30, 22:11   Link #175
Vanitas
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Wapol was the only villain in One Piece that I absolutely could not stand, as kakakka stated above the others are too amusing to really hate.

Any good hero has his or her share of losses, having them lose to a good villain is nothing to pout over if anything it promotes character development. Now if said good villain is so unbeatable that he is practically a god, I will use Itachi Uchiha here as an example since he was an antagonist throughout Naruto and faced the good guys numerous times but was never "truly beaten", and even in the end he pulls a "Kimimaro" and wasn't actually beaten by anyone, he was still pivotal in Sasuke and Naruto's development.
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Old 2009-07-30, 22:35   Link #176
Phenomenal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
Luffy can take on anyone except sword or blade users, its his weakness. I mentioned several posts above that Zoro is supporting Luffy by dealing with that weakness. A weakness does not determine overall strength.

Against opponents who are not weaknesses to both Luffy and Zoro, Luffy has shown to be able to do better. Luffy has shown that he has a greater capacity and potential, he was able to stretch his ability to unknown potentials.

Zoro definitely is strong and will become the strongest swordsman. But at this point his, power and potential is still limited. He acknowledges that Luffy is a stronger man than him, its the reason he willingly follows Luffy for.

After experiencing Luffy's pain, I'm sure he will grow to truly match Luffy very closely. At this point, judging from everything that has been shown in the anime, Zoro is still not as strong as Luffy. Even when Zoro fought Luffy, using swords, Luffy's greatest weakness, Zoro is only able to fight Luffy to a draw.
^The bold shows a contradicition...Zoro fought Luffy to a draw before and took the same damage/suffering/struggles Luffy has taken against the same oppoents and more. Zoro never said anything about Luffy being stronger than him. I remember Zoro stating if Luffy ever got in the way of his dreams he'd kill him! And Zoro and Luffy have always grown in power relatively against their opponents at the same time both have shown the potential and capacity to stretch their abilities to unknown potentials.

Quote:
Originally Posted by andy
I think your wrong there kuma was in awe of him willing to give up his dream of being the strongest sword man so his crew and captain can live .
The fact that Kuma took the dream in exchange for Luffy's shows so..


Quote:
I never saw it as zoro could take luffy place.
Well Zoro did, by taking all the pain and suffering Luffy took.
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Old 2009-07-30, 22:42   Link #177
AnbuItachi
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zoro didn't join the crew and follow luffy because he thinks luffy is stronger. he thought luffy was an interesting guy and respected him so he decided to achieve his dream with him on the same team. you cant say luffy has no boundaries really, cause we haven't seen the "boundaries" of many one piece characters yet. One being mihawk, he's the #1 swordsman and i dont think you can say you see his boundaries. if you can't see his boundaries, then you can't say luffy has less boundaries than zoro when zoro will probably become the future #1 swordsman

dont mix up the giving up life = weaker part. i'm SURE luffy will do the same for any of his crews.
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Old 2009-07-30, 22:56   Link #178
Hisoka??
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Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma View Post
It's always courteous and respectful to back up your claims with some kind of reasoning. A simple "I am" doesn't quite suffice, I'm afraid.



Listen. If Ace's flames were as powerful and hot as you claim they are (and the evidence in the manga suggests otherwise), Blackbeard would have most likely been incinerated by them. All he suffered were some minor burns. That level of heat is far from being capable of turning sand into glass.



Reread the fight, because it's clear that you don't remember the circumstances on how Moria lost.

The funny thing is, Crocodile and Moria get a lot of flak just because they lost already, and are therefore perceived as being weak by a lot of fans; whereas Ace also lost (and pretty badly at that) against Blackbeard, and yet he doesn't get any flak whatsoever. I can call Ace a weakling just because he lost against Blackbeard. Is that true, though? No, it isn't. The point is, it's a fallacious argument to say that someone is weak just because they have a loss on their record, whether it be by circumstantial plot or simply being overwhelmed by a superior adversary.

The impertinence of some One Piece fans really astounds me sometimes.
have to disagree with you about blackbeard being incinerated. I agree that ace's fire doesn't seem very powerful/hot or similar to a real flame.
But the part about blackbeard would have been incinerated is fallacy. In mangas very often supposedly lethal attacks or items become non-deadly due to the "toughness" of the opponent. This holds true in One piece too. Think of almost all of zoro's fights. Opponents or zor being slashed but only minor cuts occuring. Not to mention tekkai, tightening muscles so that blades don't cut you?
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Old 2009-07-30, 23:03   Link #179
Hisoka??
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Just a thought, seems to me that if WB and jinbei combined powers, they would be almost invincible.
WB destroys all land in sight and causes tsunamis. Then Jinbei saves him from drowning/disabled due to seawater and kills all of the rest in water where all DF users are dead and the rest are very much at disadvantage due to lack of leverage.

One other thing about how people are saying AoKigi can just freeze the tsunamis, it doesn't work that way. the tsunamis have great momentum/initial and weight. What would happen if frozen is that you see icebergs crashing in. It would likely reduce casulties though as logias will be safe and the strong people can probably hit the ice away.
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Old 2009-07-30, 23:04   Link #180
D Lusion AL
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Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma View Post
People might as well stop cheering for Luffy then since he has quite the loss record so far. You know what it might be? The majority of people just don't like bad guys. I'm like one of the only few people that's actually cheering on the World Government and hoping that they'll prevail in this war. Having the good guys win all the time sucks.
Really? I never thought of the crew as good guys or the world government as the bad guys. None of the strawhats are selfless (except for maybe chopper). Luffy, and the rest only get involved in situations when thier nakama or friends get involved. I cant think of a situation where the crew fought because someone was doing something evil and they didnt agree to it.
For ex, in the shabondy arc, Luffy witnessed a slave escape, and not only saw his collar blow up but saw the celestial dragon's dog piss on him, and watched them shoot him and then step on his body. Even though he was infuriated, he never got involved nor would he have, if Kaimi wasnt kidnapped and Hachi shot.
And you cant really generalize the world government as the bad guys, because the majority are not bad people, their just following the orders of the higherups, who are unfortunatlly corupt.
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