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Flinch · 2009-10-12, 10:28

I know that, but Shiro loses his command seals as well in Heaven's Feel when Saber is killed by Hassan-i Sabbah as well. Having your servant killed is nothing short of disgraceful, and one is no longer fit to be a master when it happens.

kaizer63 · 2009-10-12, 10:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flinch

I know that, but Shiro loses his command seals as well in Heaven's Feel when Saber is killed by Hassan-i Sabbah as well. Having your servant killed is nothing short of disgraceful, and one is no longer fit to be a master when it happens.

The way I understood it is that you don't necessarily lose your command spells, but that they go inactive and are no longer visible. Though really it depends entirely on the will of the Grail. For losing your servant in a particularly shameful manner you will likely lose all your spells as a punishment. In Shirou's case he never once acted like a proper Master so once his servant was gone his spells were taken. The Grail can also arbitrarily grant more command spells. The supervisor of the war can also take and grant command spells.

On the other hand if you have none then you can't make a new contract with a servant so there's no way that Rin could have contracted Saber if she lost her remaining spell when Archer defected and the Grail decided to give her more once she received a new Servant.

Flinch · 2009-10-12, 11:25

You just defended your own point. HOW GOOD OF A MASTER CAN YOU BE IF YOUR SERVANT DEFECTS!? Answer: A pretty bad one. Though Shiro was a failure of a magus, he performed better as a Master than Rin did... amazingly.

orangejuicetang · 2009-10-12, 12:27

The question here is how does the grail judge whether you've been a good master or a bad master? Is it sentient? Does it look at the scene and see, oh Archer's betraying Rin right now? Does it only see it in terms of numbers and info, like "Rin and Archer approach Caster's position. Archer gets rule breakered. Caster takes Archer"? Does it read every Servant's thoughts so it knows what their intentions are? Something like "This master is horrible" or "I have a complicated plan for taking down Caster and freeing the command spell, and step one is faking my betrayal in order to betray Caster later?" What qualities make up a "good" master? Your assuming that the Grail is like some kind of omnipotent watcher who can observe each scenes and arrive at a conclusion from each one. However, I feel like it's more like some kind of will-less mass of power which just acts when certain criteria are met. Are you a magus in this town and are there not yet seven Master's? Your qualified, here's a servant. How many Servants have you battled or attempted to battle? If the answer is zero, then you are not a good master and your command spells will be revoked. Did your Servant have his/her contract forcefully broken off? Insufficient information, will continue to gather information. Kind of like a computer program, in that it goes to a certain junction, ask a question, and then goes down another junction depending on the answer.

Flinch · 2009-10-12, 17:03

The grail chooses magi who have a specific wish that only it can fulfill to become Masters. If you are not deemed fit to participate, the Grail will not give you command seals to fight in the first place. With that in mind, it must know what multiple people truly desire, and be able to rationalize which 7 people deserve to compete for that wish. Additionally, if a Master should die, the grail must choose another magi to take their place (provided there is one or more servants free) by determining who is the next most deserving to have their chance to make their wish reality. To make judgments like that, it must be a sentient entity with the power to grant ANY wish, making it omnipotent as well. Do you really think an entity like that wouldn't be able to know what happens to any Servant that came forth from its power?

orangejuicetang · 2009-10-12, 17:47

Honestly, the grail does a pretty shitty job then. It's also supposed to summon Servants with wishes and desires that the grail will grant, which would was supposed to be the entire reason the Servants cooperated with their master. However, it summons quite a few servants without don't have any wish to make upon the grail (f/z lancer, f/z gilgamesh, f/sn lancer, f/sn assassin, f/sn Archer, F/sn Rider, ect.) I'll make a point, at the very beginning of fate/stay night, in the prologue, Rin says she doesn't really have a wish for the grail. Ilya doesn't have a wish for the grail either. Kotomine doesn't have a wish, he just wants to see what happens. I doubt f/z's caster's master knew what the grail was let alone have a wish for it. The maguses from f/z, Tokomi and El-Melloi basically wanted to win the war to prove their own superiority, or at least that's the feeling you get from El-Melloi. Kotomine himself states that the grail is most like a simple mass of power.

willyvereb · 2009-10-12, 17:54

The Grail is fairly sentinent:

Spoiler for HF:

Flinch · 2009-10-12, 18:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by orangejuicetang

(f/z lancer, f/z gilgamesh, f/sn lancer, f/sn assassin, f/sn Archer, F/sn Rider, ect.)

Diarmuid- Diarmuid wanted to live a peaceful life without the curse of his love spot. That's pretty simple. He killed many men he didn't want to kill in order to try and survive.

Gilgamesh- He wanted to rule verything... not to mention he wanted to be remembered for all eternity, stemming from how no one remembered him in The Epic of Gilgamesh after he returned to Uruk.

Cuchulainn- To fight again... it's all he wanted. The grail was an oppurtunity for him to fight against legends like himself, how could he pass that up?

Kojiro- My guess would be a fair fight with Musashi. Seeing how Kojiro always wanted to challenge himself, it makes sense that he would wish for the opportunity to pursue a chance to do so.

Emiya- One opportunity to go back in time and kill himself to prevent himself from going through the pain of being summoned from death to kill thousands of people again and again in order to save millions. Not to mention, he would've wished for Kiritsugu's ideal wish of a world where no one has to die.

Medusa- Medusa wanted to be cute like her sisters. She wanted to have smaller breasts and be short and "cute" like them instead of beautiful.

Kotomine Kirei- To indulge in the suffering of mankind.

Tosaka Tokiomi- To win the grail for the glory of the Tosaka family.... and to be the first of the three head families to do so.

Tosaka Rin- pretty much the same as her father.

Illyasviel von Einzbern- same as above.

Any others you want me to name?

orangejuicetang · 2009-10-12, 18:50

I meant wish as in some miracle they actually wanted to get from the grail, not their personal reason for wanting to win the grail. As in, if they won the war, would they actually wish for something. I guess we were just thinking on different wavelengths about the word "wish". The reason that everybody is technically fighting for the grail is because the winner can make any wish and the grail will make that miracle come true. I'm saying that these people didn't have a wish/miracle they wanted to make upon the grail personally. Now let's go through that list one more time.

Diarumuid- He wanted to participate solely to show his loyalty. He didn't have any wish he wanted to make on the grail, he just wanted to be the loyal servant that he was unable to be during his life due to the princess and ect.

Gilgamesh- He doesn't have a wish for the grail in Fate/Zero. He wants it solely because "it's a treasure, therefore it belonged to me at one point, therefore if anyone else takes it then that becomes theft from me, and thieves must be punished".

Cuchulainn- Yes. That's pretty much it. But he doesn't have a personal wish he wants the grail to grant him, as long as he can fight. It's even mentioned in the game, something like "Cuchulainn didn't even care about the holy grail. all he wanted was to fight, which should be simple in this war, but his master made many unreasonable demands" or something along those lines.

Kojiro- I'm going to start out by pointing out that Kojiro isn't even Kojiro. He's some wraith that was some unknown swordsman who lived at the temple, and the grail just went to him and said, "Your going to be Kojiro for this war. Now go" In the Nasuverse, Musashi didn't fight against Kojiro, since Kojiro didn't exist. There existed a man named Kojiro, and there existed a person who wielded the really long katana that Kojiro was said to have wielded, but these two people were different. Assassin is similar to Lancer, in that all he wants is a good fight, since there's really nothing else for him.

Emiya- Even he knows that that wouldn't likely work. Killing Shirou probably wouldn't create the time paradox he wanted. More likely, he wants to spare Shirou the pain of going down the same path he did. And I'm almost sure he wouldn't make such a wish for that sort of ideal world, since it has been mentioned various times how a world without conflict would be a bad thing, and Emiya is smart enough to know this.

Medusa- I have no idea.

Kotomine- To be more specific, he wants to find a meaning to his life. He feels like watching the holy grail give birth to this miracle would give his life meaning since he was reborn through a similar way, with the mud covering his body at the end of the last war.

The Tohsakas- Yes, they wanted to win the grail for the glory, not for the wish.

Ilya- She wanted to win because she was expected to, since that what her family trained her to believe.

El-Melloi- To prove what a supreme magus he is.

RadiantBeam · 2009-10-12, 18:53

Aren't plotholes fun? 8D

Key Board · 2009-10-12, 19:02

A few had personal wishes

Saber wanted to erase her past
Alexander wanted to become flesh and blood once again (and presumable work on this world conquest once more)

but IIRC, the grail has a quota to meet and if forced it will pick just about anyone with qualifying magic potential to be a master

orangejuicetang · 2009-10-12, 19:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Key Board

A few had personal wishes

Saber wanted to erase her past
Alexander wanted to become flesh and blood once again (and presumable work on this world conquest once more)

Yes, some Servants had wishes they wanted to make upon the grail. My point is that these Servants were supposed to be 'typical' servants, in that they had something they wished for that could only be granted as a miracle by the grail.

kaizer63 · 2009-10-12, 23:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flinch

You just defended your own point. HOW GOOD OF A MASTER CAN YOU BE IF YOUR SERVANT DEFECTS!? Answer: A pretty bad one. Though Shiro was a failure of a magus, he performed better as a Master than Rin did... amazingly.

Shirou was a terrible Master. Until he had no choice he refused to actively fight and, while it was toned down in UBW he still had issues about actually letting his Servant fight. He also refused to let his Servant properly guard him and as a result was captured by Caster. He also tended to charge in recklessly rather than actually plan. As a whole Shirou worked poorly with his Servant tried to be a Servant rather than a Master. He was never in the war to be a Master, but to be a hero.

Rin, on the other hand, was an excellent Master. Archer admitted he defected not because Rin was a poor Master, but solely because he wanted the opportunity to kill Shirou. Even after she lost her Servant she continued to act as a Master and tried to take on the other Masters and win the Grail.

Quote:

The grail chooses magi who have a specific wish that only it can fulfill to become Masters. If you are not deemed fit to participate, the Grail will not give you command seals to fight in the first place. With that in mind, it must know what multiple people truly desire, and be able to rationalize which 7 people deserve to compete for that wish. Additionally, if a Master should die, the grail must choose another magi to take their place (provided there is one or more servants free) by determining who is the next most deserving to have their chance to make their wish reality. To make judgments like that, it must be a sentient entity with the power to grant ANY wish, making it omnipotent as well. Do you really think an entity like that wouldn't be able to know what happens to any Servant that came forth from its power?

The grail does no such thing. The wishes of the magi aren't accounted for when choosing the Masters. The grail simply chooses what is deemed Seven suitable Masters. Generally this means that they have the will to fight, but nothing else other than a magic circuit is required.

Nor are new Masters chosen when a Master dies. Bazette was killed and Kotomine stole her command spells, thought as advisor he also had the right to give himself the seals that returned to the Grail upon her death. If you selected a new Master every time a Master was defeated but not a Servant then the easiest way of winning the war--killing the Masters would be pointless.

Also, while the grail is sentient, the wish is a lie. All you get is a LOT of mana. If you can't use it you won't be getting any wish. Corrupted Grail simply uses that mana to grant a "wish" based on its own interpretation.

orangejuicetang · 2009-10-28, 00:22

I swear, if this movie doesn't have ever-present feeling and the dreams, I'm going to cry. And if it does, I might still cry.

Flinch · 2009-10-29, 01:21

If they put it in, expect it to be over in 10 seconds or less. Remember, they gotta take out story to have enough time for the fight scenes. Can't wait to see this movie fail!

Reckoner · 2009-10-29, 04:12

Ever present feeling is my second favorite Fate/Stay Night track next to Emiya. I know for sure the latter will be in there (Probably another of the 1000 remixes), but the former wasn't in the original anime series from my knowledge?

Flinch · 2009-10-29, 11:09

Don't remember. I do know that they only played Ilya's theme 'Die Lorelei' (thank you for the remix, Ifind it better than the original) for about 10 seconds. "Ich weiß nicht was soll es bedeuten." was all they got in.

bergsdal · 2009-11-08, 16:06

any news ??????

orangejuicetang · 2009-11-09, 03:06

As far as I know, no.

RadiantBeam · 2009-11-09, 11:23

For being a movie based on such a popular game, there hasn't been much news on it.

2009-10-12, 10:28	Link #421
Flinch Onii-chan~ Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Einzbern Castle Age: 21	I know that, but Shiro loses his command seals as well in Heaven's Feel when Saber is killed by Hassan-i Sabbah as well. Having your servant killed is nothing short of disgraceful, and one is no longer fit to be a master when it happens. __________________

2009-10-12, 11:25	Link #423
Flinch Onii-chan~ Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Einzbern Castle Age: 21	You just defended your own point. HOW GOOD OF A MASTER CAN YOU BE IF YOUR SERVANT DEFECTS!? Answer: A pretty bad one. Though Shiro was a failure of a magus, he performed better as a Master than Rin did... amazingly. __________________

2009-10-12, 12:27	Link #424
orangejuicetang Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Age: 22	The question here is how does the grail judge whether you've been a good master or a bad master? Is it sentient? Does it look at the scene and see, oh Archer's betraying Rin right now? Does it only see it in terms of numbers and info, like "Rin and Archer approach Caster's position. Archer gets rule breakered. Caster takes Archer"? Does it read every Servant's thoughts so it knows what their intentions are? Something like "This master is horrible" or "I have a complicated plan for taking down Caster and freeing the command spell, and step one is faking my betrayal in order to betray Caster later?" What qualities make up a "good" master? Your assuming that the Grail is like some kind of omnipotent watcher who can observe each scenes and arrive at a conclusion from each one. However, I feel like it's more like some kind of will-less mass of power which just acts when certain criteria are met. Are you a magus in this town and are there not yet seven Master's? Your qualified, here's a servant. How many Servants have you battled or attempted to battle? If the answer is zero, then you are not a good master and your command spells will be revoked. Did your Servant have his/her contract forcefully broken off? Insufficient information, will continue to gather information. Kind of like a computer program, in that it goes to a certain junction, ask a question, and then goes down another junction depending on the answer. __________________ WORDS IN THE HEART CANNOT BE TAKEN If a corrupt court will not behead an evil king, than the watchman should do it himself.

2009-10-12, 17:03	Link #425
Flinch Onii-chan~ Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Einzbern Castle Age: 21	The grail chooses magi who have a specific wish that only it can fulfill to become Masters. If you are not deemed fit to participate, the Grail will not give you command seals to fight in the first place. With that in mind, it must know what multiple people truly desire, and be able to rationalize which 7 people deserve to compete for that wish. Additionally, if a Master should die, the grail must choose another magi to take their place (provided there is one or more servants free) by determining who is the next most deserving to have their chance to make their wish reality. To make judgments like that, it must be a sentient entity with the power to grant ANY wish, making it omnipotent as well. Do you really think an entity like that wouldn't be able to know what happens to any Servant that came forth from its power? __________________

2009-10-12, 17:47	Link #426
orangejuicetang Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Age: 22	Honestly, the grail does a pretty shitty job then. It's also supposed to summon Servants with wishes and desires that the grail will grant, which would was supposed to be the entire reason the Servants cooperated with their master. However, it summons quite a few servants without don't have any wish to make upon the grail (f/z lancer, f/z gilgamesh, f/sn lancer, f/sn assassin, f/sn Archer, F/sn Rider, ect.) I'll make a point, at the very beginning of fate/stay night, in the prologue, Rin says she doesn't really have a wish for the grail. Ilya doesn't have a wish for the grail either. Kotomine doesn't have a wish, he just wants to see what happens. I doubt f/z's caster's master knew what the grail was let alone have a wish for it. The maguses from f/z, Tokomi and El-Melloi basically wanted to win the war to prove their own superiority, or at least that's the feeling you get from El-Melloi. Kotomine himself states that the grail is most like a simple mass of power. __________________ WORDS IN THE HEART CANNOT BE TAKEN If a corrupt court will not behead an evil king, than the watchman should do it himself.

2009-10-12, 17:54	Link #427
willyvereb Mad Scientist #0000 Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Hungary Age: 24	The Grail is fairly sentinent: Spoiler for HF: The Great Grail is actually the body of Justicia...the first homunculous created in effort to revive the 3rd magic. __________________ MAL profile Fanfic:Fate/Twists

2009-10-12, 18:50	Link #429
orangejuicetang Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Age: 22	I meant wish as in some miracle they actually wanted to get from the grail, not their personal reason for wanting to win the grail. As in, if they won the war, would they actually wish for something. I guess we were just thinking on different wavelengths about the word "wish". The reason that everybody is technically fighting for the grail is because the winner can make any wish and the grail will make that miracle come true. I'm saying that these people didn't have a wish/miracle they wanted to make upon the grail personally. Now let's go through that list one more time. Diarumuid- He wanted to participate solely to show his loyalty. He didn't have any wish he wanted to make on the grail, he just wanted to be the loyal servant that he was unable to be during his life due to the princess and ect. Gilgamesh- He doesn't have a wish for the grail in Fate/Zero. He wants it solely because "it's a treasure, therefore it belonged to me at one point, therefore if anyone else takes it then that becomes theft from me, and thieves must be punished". Cuchulainn- Yes. That's pretty much it. But he doesn't have a personal wish he wants the grail to grant him, as long as he can fight. It's even mentioned in the game, something like "Cuchulainn didn't even care about the holy grail. all he wanted was to fight, which should be simple in this war, but his master made many unreasonable demands" or something along those lines. Kojiro- I'm going to start out by pointing out that Kojiro isn't even Kojiro. He's some wraith that was some unknown swordsman who lived at the temple, and the grail just went to him and said, "Your going to be Kojiro for this war. Now go" In the Nasuverse, Musashi didn't fight against Kojiro, since Kojiro didn't exist. There existed a man named Kojiro, and there existed a person who wielded the really long katana that Kojiro was said to have wielded, but these two people were different. Assassin is similar to Lancer, in that all he wants is a good fight, since there's really nothing else for him. Emiya- Even he knows that that wouldn't likely work. Killing Shirou probably wouldn't create the time paradox he wanted. More likely, he wants to spare Shirou the pain of going down the same path he did. And I'm almost sure he wouldn't make such a wish for that sort of ideal world, since it has been mentioned various times how a world without conflict would be a bad thing, and Emiya is smart enough to know this. Medusa- I have no idea. Kotomine- To be more specific, he wants to find a meaning to his life. He feels like watching the holy grail give birth to this miracle would give his life meaning since he was reborn through a similar way, with the mud covering his body at the end of the last war. The Tohsakas- Yes, they wanted to win the grail for the glory, not for the wish. Ilya- She wanted to win because she was expected to, since that what her family trained her to believe. El-Melloi- To prove what a supreme magus he is. __________________ WORDS IN THE HEART CANNOT BE TAKEN If a corrupt court will not behead an evil king, than the watchman should do it himself.

2009-10-12, 19:02	Link #431
Key Board Donut Join Date: Nov 2003	A few had personal wishes Saber wanted to erase her past Alexander wanted to become flesh and blood once again (and presumable work on this world conquest once more) but IIRC, the grail has a quota to meet and if forced it will pick just about anyone with qualifying magic potential to be a master

2009-10-28, 00:22	Link #434
orangejuicetang Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Age: 22	I swear, if this movie doesn't have ever-present feeling and the dreams, I'm going to cry. And if it does, I might still cry. __________________ WORDS IN THE HEART CANNOT BE TAKEN If a corrupt court will not behead an evil king, than the watchman should do it himself.

2009-10-29, 01:21	Link #435
Flinch Onii-chan~ Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Einzbern Castle Age: 21	If they put it in, expect it to be over in 10 seconds or less. Remember, they gotta take out story to have enough time for the fight scenes. Can't wait to see this movie fail! __________________

2009-10-29, 11:09	Link #437
Flinch Onii-chan~ Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Einzbern Castle Age: 21	Don't remember. I do know that they only played Ilya's theme 'Die Lorelei' (thank you for the remix, Ifind it better than the original) for about 10 seconds. "Ich weiß nicht was soll es bedeuten." was all they got in. __________________

2009-11-08, 16:06	Link #438
bergsdal Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2009	any news ??????

2009-11-09, 03:06	Link #439
orangejuicetang Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Age: 22	As far as I know, no. __________________ WORDS IN THE HEART CANNOT BE TAKEN If a corrupt court will not behead an evil king, than the watchman should do it himself.