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Old 2009-08-10, 14:35   Link #261
Phenomenal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James0246
That is fine. I was never trying to detract from Mihawk. Rather, I was emphasizing that Mihawk never defeated Shanks. Ultimately we are saying the same thing (neither beat the other), just placing our emphasis on different characters.
Yeah, my point to paradox was Mihawk losing to a non swordsman would still be foul. He/she thought it would be ok if Mihawk lost to the opponent since he wasn't a swordsman which would still allow him to retain his title. People act as if Swordsman can only fight/defeat swordsman, well Mihawk came here to test his strength against Whitebeard who isn't a swordsman.

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Originally Posted by Master Mold
Look what you did Phenom. LOL!
The truth hurts...

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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
I'm bored, so...

Or, and this may sound crazy, you could write a legitimate post in which you describe, in bullet-point format, why what we are reading/have read is bad. You, and 1 or 2 others, have never described what is wrong or why it is wrong ) (this goes for Phenomenal as well).
Nah, it doesn't cause I always put my reasons James and then you and a few others always try to combat those reasons only to be hit with a skillet, frying your posts. Then when many people get their points hammered they end their arguments with "your a troll." It is always a never ending story with this thang, so please don't act like I and a few others just come in here with "troll" posts, cause there is always reasons backing it up, good or bad. It's up to you people to address them or ignore them.
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Old 2009-08-10, 14:36   Link #262
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Originally Posted by james0246
I actually edited my post, before you posted, indicating that I had misread your post concerning this issue. I agree that swordsmen are among the elite (though I will say that Zoro v. Luffy is not an example of anything, they didn't really fight, and neither injured the other, so the example does not really prove anything).
I see Luffy vs zoro differently, but I don't feel like getting into any sub arguments.

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As Trax said, we cannot confirm or deny anything based on Shanks using a sword. There is no reason to assume that Shanks only rivaled Mihawk (or vice versa) because of his swordsmanship (or even a combination of swordmanship and haki). It's not like Mihawk only fights swordsmen (he is trying to battle Whitebeard after all). Their rivalry was probably similar to Whitebeard and Roger, where even if they had differing abilities, they still fought equally.
Well Shanks and his great swordsmanship skills exist, along with duels with hawk Eye's (which is formal combat.) Can't say much about the assumption about swordsmanship being his 2nd skill and not his best, or whatever the fandom is saying now a days weather it be DF, auto mail or what. Until it is put into the story it don't exist. If there rivalry (Shanks and hawkeyes) was the same as Whitebeard and Rogers, Miahwk would still have interest in Shanks and there rivalry wouldn't be past tense, and no one would have the title of strongest swordsman until one surpassed the other.

Quote:
But Shanks has not be "surpassed" otherwise the records we currently have would indicate that Shanks had lost to Mihawk.Instead, they say that Mihawk and Shnaks have never beaten each other.
If that's the case then why is there rivalry in past tense? While Mihawk is the strongest and while Shanks is not? One was surpassed, and Mihawk is the one with the title of strongest swordsman in the world.

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edit: I'm going to the gym now for a few hours, so any other point I would like to make will ahve to wait. Sorry...
I need to start building some steel as well.

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Originally Posted by Trax View Post
At the moment Mihawk seems to be portrayed as being slightly below Yonkou level, with his attack being stopped by a commander. However, we're talking about a commander from the strongest pirate crew here, so he's not exactly a pushover.
You do know that no named attack was meant for a flesh an blood human, not a diamond man. In any case didn't you see Mihawk face expression? after Joze was screaming like a lunatic just to stop a causal sword slash strike from Mihawk. That right there let me know the out come of that battle.

Oh and one more thing I think Red Dog and Doflamingo will get there shot at the King.

Oh, I'm such a troll. (sorry can't not help it)

Last edited by Master Mold; 2009-08-10 at 15:36. Reason: JK of coruse.
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Old 2009-08-10, 15:08   Link #263
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I've always thought that Mihawk might be a tad overrated by fans, not to detract anything from his real power and skill. However, he seems to be rated by fans as like the 2nd most powerful character in the series. Realistically, all we know about him is that he's the best swordsman in the world and that he's a Shichibukai, as well as he owned Zoro. His display of sheer incomparable power came a long time ago, back when Luffy and co. were still in the East Blue. After that, there isn't much to say about his power.

We know that him and Shanks used to be rivals. It would appear that somewhere along the line, Mihawk surpassed him and became world renowned. The thing that holds me up over that, however, is the fact that Mihawk is a Shichibukai. If he's as powerful as/more powerful than a Yonkou, why stay a Shichibukai. Why not rival the rest of the Yonkou, and to hell with the WG? A couple of things lend to this, imo, and you're free to disagree, but, first: when he came to Shanks to bring him news of Luffy's coming, Shanks said 'you come to challenge me?' If Mihawk was better, wouldn't the one expected to put the challenge forth be Shanks? Also, the way I read Mihawk's statement in the last chapter about Whitebeard indicated to me that there's quite a ways between them.

For the sake of Mihawk being who he is in fandom, I do believe that he will probably defeat Jozu. At the same time, I don't think it'll be a runaway type victory, which seems to be the common conception. Just cuz Jozu isn't a captain himself, doesn't mean the commanders of Whitebeard's crew can't be as good as the major fighters on the WG's side.

If we assume that the Shichibukai are close to one another in strength and that Luffy and Zoro have grown immensely since they fought Don Krieg, it's not inconceivable that Mihawk isn't an unreachable beacon of strength, like we think. Keeping in mind that they've defeated two Shichibukai, there's nothing to say that Mihawk is still that far ahead of them, even if we're to assume that he's the strongest of them. One can mention Kuma, but remember also that both times Kuma showed up, the Straw Hats had just finished a tiresome battle, and were in bad shape.
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Old 2009-08-10, 15:21   Link #264
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Mihawk said he does not care about fighting shanks since he only has one arm . That's why plain and simple . While mihawk is the greatest swordsman in the world that does not make him stronger than shanks. Mihawk is one who said he does not want to fight shanks anymore and maybe that is how there rivalry end.

Now maybe shanks only uses a sword we don't know. Also shanks is one of the few chars that we saw use haki out side amazon lily . Hell for all we know after losing him arm he went and learn something else other than swordsman ship .

Now i am not saying shanks is stronger than mihawk or mihawk is stronger than shanks the truth is we just don't know. Mihawk surpass shanks in swordsman ship but we have no idea how shanks fights.

For all we know shanks could have ate a DF in the 10 years or able to find a way to use haki to counter the lost of his arm .

Him being strongest swordsman in the world is great but there alot of people out there that could give mihawk a hard time.
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Old 2009-08-10, 15:26   Link #265
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Originally Posted by andy View Post
Now i am not saying shanks is stronger than mihawk or mihawk is stronger than shanks the truth is we just don't know. Mihawk might surpass shanks in swordsman ship but we have no idea how shanks fights.
Yeah, that sounds like a fair statement. And also, just cuz Mihawk is the greatest swordsman in the world, it doesn't mean he's the only greatest swordsman in the world I know that's a stretch, but all I'm saying is that Shanks could be his equal as a swordsman.
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Old 2009-08-10, 15:29   Link #266
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Yeah, that sounds like a fair statement. And also, just cuz Mihawk is the greatest swordsman in the world, it doesn't mean he's the only greatest swordsman in the world I know that's a stretch, but all I'm saying is that Shanks could be his equal as a swordsman.
Then there wouldn't be a strongest swordsman in the world. Shanks and Mihawk would be sharing the title, until one died or one surpassed the other, much like when Roger died and Newgate was then crowed the strongest man in the world, but as long as he had an equal he had no title.
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Old 2009-08-10, 15:53   Link #267
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Originally Posted by Master Mold View Post
Then there wouldn't be a strongest swordsman in the world. Shanks and Mihawk would be sharing the title, until one died or one surpassed the other, much like when Roger died and Newgate was crowed the strongest man in the world.
Arguably, although it could be that Mihawk is famous for the title, because Shanks is perceived to no longer be a challenger for it. It would be implied that to be the Greatest Swordsman in the world, one would have to defeat any other great swordsman out there. Maybe Mihawk did defeat them all, except Shanks, and because Shanks didn't challenge/come forth for it, he never received consideration for it, so it stayed with Mihawk, despite Shanks' strength.

The way I see it, the reason Shanks' strength is overlooked is probably because he's considered a has-been after losing his arm, but he's too chill to care what he's considered, so he hasn't done anything to make people think otherwise.
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Old 2009-08-10, 16:02   Link #268
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Mihawk fights as far as we know with only his swordsman skills at least I doubt he has Haki/DF powers. On the other hand we know for certain that Shanks has Haki powers and I doubt he uses them to just make half the people on whitebeards ship pass out. More likely I expect him to be able to use Haki much like Rayleigh when he fought against the Admiral ontop of his own swordsman skills. My guess is swords vs swords only Mihawk wins, haki + swords vs swords Shanks will win.
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Old 2009-08-10, 16:05   Link #269
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Originally Posted by lonewolf777 View Post
Arguably, although it could be that Mihawk is famous for the title, because Shanks is perceived to no longer be a challenger for it. It would be implied that to be the Greatest Swordsman in the world, one would have to defeat any other great swordsman out there. Maybe Mihawk did defeat them all, except Shanks, and because Shanks didn't challenge/come forth for it, he never received consideration for it, so it stayed with Mihawk, despite Shanks' strength.
If that's the case the same thing should have happened between Newgate and Rogers. Rogers beat them all expect Newgate but even so Roger was not considered the strongest man, and no one gained that title until one surpassed the other or one died. Heck its even stated Mihawk is greater than any other swordsman in the entire world, and Shanks and Mihawks rivalry is past tense meaing one is 1 upping the other, and Mihawk is the one with the title so.
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Old 2009-08-10, 16:11   Link #270
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If that's the case the same thing should have happened between Newgate and Rogers. Rogers beat them all expect Newgate but even so Roger was not considered the strongest man, and no one gained that title until one surpassed the other or one died. Heck its even stated Mihawk is greater than any other swordsman in the entire world, and Shanks and Mihawks rivalry is past tense.
The difference is in Roger and Newgate's case, both of them were still vying for the title and neither surpassed the other. As for Shanks, it seems like his rivalry with Mihawk ended cuz Mihawk didn't want to fight a one-armed person, but there really isn't much to explicitly say that Mihawk surpassed Shanks, other than Mihawk's title. Once again, that could simply due to a lack of caring about what the world said about him on Shanks' part, as he IS that type.
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Old 2009-08-10, 16:17   Link #271
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The difference is in Roger and Newgate's case, both of them were still vying for the title and neither surpassed the other. As for Shanks, it seems like his rivalry with Mihawk ended cuz Mihawk didn't want to fight a one-armed person, but there really isn't much to explicitly say that Mihawk surpassed Shanks, other than Mihawk's title.
You said it your self, not to mention it was stated Mihawk is greater than any other swordsman in the entire world.

Quote:
Once again, that could simply due to a lack of caring about what the world said about him on Shanks' part, as he IS that type.
Then Zoro is going to get a huge wake up call once he beats Mihawk and finds out the truth.
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Old 2009-08-10, 16:22   Link #272
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You said it your self.
Right, I acknowledge that the title makes it seem as though Mihawk surpassed Shanks, but it could also be due to the fact that Shanks doesn't care about that Shanks doesn't care enough about it to do anything about it. That's what I secretly think in the back of my head.

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Originally Posted by Master Mold
Then Zoro is going to get a huge wake up call once he beats Mihawk and finds out the truth.
Haha, touche. Actually, I was wondering what kind of scenario that would warrant, ie Zoro and Shanks fighting, but it seems as though Shanks to the Straw Hats is like the previous generation, and he wouldn't even get involved. Many think, actually, that he's probably going to die soon, since he can't really add more to the story, but you never know.
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Old 2009-08-10, 16:31   Link #273
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Right, I acknowledge that the title makes it seem as though Mihawk surpassed Shanks,
What about the statement "Mihawk is greater than any other swordsman in the entire world," when he was 1st introduced?

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but it could also be due to the fact that Shanks doesn't care about that Shanks doesn't care enough about it to do anything about it. That's what I secretly think in the back of my head.
Then what was all the duels/rivalry between Mihawk and Shanks in the past for then?

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Haha, touche. Actually, I was wondering what kind of scenario that would warrant, ie Zoro and Shanks fighting, but it seems as though Shanks to the Straw Hats is like the previous generation, and he wouldn't even get involved. Many think, actually, that he's probably going to die soon, since he can't really add more to the story, but you never know.
I always expected for the SH crew to battle The Red Haired Pirates.

IMO its sh8t writing to build up one characters as the dream of Zoro only say "no no it this guy," and they call me a troll.
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Old 2009-08-10, 16:42   Link #274
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What about the statement "Mihawk is greater than any other swordsman in the entire world," when he was 1st introduced?
It was Chef Zeff who said that, so since Shanks lost his arm, he's been considered by the rest of the world a has-been. I'm not saying it is the case, I just think it doesn't make much sense for a Yonkou to be weaker than a Shichibukai.

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Originally Posted by Master Mold
Then what was all the duels/rivalry between Mihawk and Shanks in the past for then?
Well, sure, that's not to say Shanks doesn't care at all. Back when he had his arm, him and Mihawk fought mutually. But since Mihawk doesn't acknowledge him anymore since he has one arm, clearly Shanks doesn't care. Mihawk called him a has-been and Shanks invited him for a drink. Lol, I think that's pretty indicative.

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Originally Posted by Master Mold
I always expected for the SH crew to battle The Red Haired Pirates.

IMO its sh8t writing to build up one characters as the dream of Zoro only say no it this guy.
I can't imagine the circumstances under which they would fight one another, but I'd be lying if I said I could imagine half of the stuff that Oda's pulled out of the hat. You could be right, since One Piece is pretty unpredictable.

As for that about Zoro, I agree, which is why I think there's gotta be some kind of resolution with regards to how strong Shanks is/what Shanks can do, etc., and I'm sure there will be in time. What I've said thus far isn't conclusive, anyway. It's nothing more than speculation, but I don't feel it's wise to rule out Shanks that easily, just based on reputation and what is accepted as general fact in the OP world. I mean, according to the world and what we all believed up until Rayleigh told us otherwise, Roger was captured by Garp.
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Old 2009-08-10, 16:58   Link #275
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It was Chef Zeff who said that, so since Shanks lost his arm, he's been considered by the rest of the world a has-been. I'm not saying it is the case, I just think it doesn't make much sense for a Yonkou to be weaker than a Shichibukai.
Well its not like the title of Shichibukai is what got Miahwk where he is now. In any case the power among Shichibukai vary, so I don't really see a problem. Same goes for the Yonkou, with Newgate and the The Saikyo Dynasty on top.

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Well, sure, that's not to say Shanks doesn't care at all. Back when he had his arm, him and Mihawk fought mutually. But since Mihawk doesn't acknowledge him anymore since he has one arm, clearly Shanks doesn't care. Mihawk called him a has-been and Shanks invited him for a drink. Lol, I think that's pretty indicative.
Well the 1st thing to come out of Shanks mouth when MiHawk visited him was "yo you come for a match?" That right there let me know Shanks still cares IMO. I see Shanks as a guy that actual likes fighting, but that's a story for another day.

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I can't imagine the circumstances under which they would fight one another, but I'd be lying if I said I could imagine half of the stuff that Oda's pulled out of the hat. You could be right, since One Piece is pretty unpredictable.
Luffy did say he would gain a that will beat your crew. IIRC what better way not to see who who then a good battle. I understand some will say Luffy can prove his crew is better then Shanks by becoming Pirate King, but what if Shanks don't care about becoming pirate King? but like i said before i don't feel like getting into sub arguments.

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As for that about Zoro, I agree, which is why I think there's gotta be some kind of resolution with regards to how strong Shanks is/what Shanks can do, etc., and I'm sure there will be in time. What I've said thus far isn't conclusive, anyway. It's nothing more than speculation, but I don't feel it's wise to rule out Shanks that easily, just based on reputation and what is accepted as general fact in the OP world. I mean, according to the world and what we all believed up until Rayleigh told us otherwise, Roger was captured by Garp.
True, time will tell.
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Old 2009-08-10, 17:10   Link #276
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But Shanks has not be "surpassed" otherwise the records we currently have would indicate that Shanks had lost to Mihawk.Instead, they say that Mihawk and Shnaks have never beaten each other.
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Originally Posted by Master Mold View Post
If that's the case then why is there rivalry in past tense? While Mihawk is the strongest and while Shanks is not? One was surpassed, and Mihawk is the one with the title of strongest swordsman in the world.
Actually, he's right, the rivalry between the two most likely did not end by a victory and a loss.

Volume 11:
Shanks: 勝負でもしに来たか?
Mihawk: フン・・・片腕の貴様と今さら決着をつけようなどとは思わん

He clearly says he hasn't come here to bring a 決着 to their rivalry, now that Shanks is one armed.
"kecchaku" (決着) is final, decisive conclusion to a battle.
It's only used when there hasn't been a decisive victor yet.

I don't know how these early parts were translated in the English volumes, and perhaps some nuances from the original Japanese text has been lost.

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Oh, I'm such a troll. (sorry can't not help it)
I think it's very easy to label you one, since despite the good points you bring up, your inflamatory suggestions that everyone else are fans that suck Oda's cock needessly cause aggression to all.
If you're not looking for a fight, you may want to restrain such comments.
If you ARE looking for a fight, then you would rightly be labeled a troll.

The fine line between constructive criticism and trolling is often decided simply by the amount of inflamatory nature in the post.
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Old 2009-08-10, 17:18   Link #277
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Actually, he's right, the rivalry between the two most likely did not end by a victory and a loss.

Volume 11:
Shanks: 勝負でもしに来たか?
Mihawk: フン・・・片腕の貴様と今さら決着をつけようなどとは思わん

He clearly says he hasn't come here to bring a 決着 to their rivalry, now that he's one armed.
"kecchaku" (決着) is final, decisive conclusion to a battle.
It's only used when there hasn't been a decisive victor yet.

I don't know how these early parts were translated in the English volumes, and perhaps some nuances from the original Japanese text has been lost.
Your going to have to spoon feed this to me.....cuz I'm confused.
So does that mean Shanks was surpassed or what?

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I think it's very easy to label you one, since despite the good points you bring up, your inflamatory suggestions that everyone else are fans that suck Oda's cock needessly cause aggression to all.
If you're not looking for a fight, you may want to restrain such comments.
If you ARE looking for a fight, then you would rightly be labeled a troll.
Hey that's just me saying it to the guys who call me a troll in the 1st place, yet don't even try to argue any points etc etc. I ain't looking for a fight, but start any of that bull just coz I don't see One piece in the same light as you with the use, of the word Troll when they never step up to combat any points, you will get a fight.

Mind I'm not talking about you.
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Old 2009-08-10, 17:21   Link #278
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Originally Posted by Master Mold View Post
Your going to have to spoon feed this to me.....cuz I'm confused.
So does that mean Shanks was surpassed or what?
It means that their battles probably never had a clear victor.
However, since Shanks lost his arm, Mihawk lost interest in bringing a conclusion to their rivalry by battle.

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Hey that's just me saying it to the guys who call me a troll in the 1st place, yet don't even try to argue any points etc etc. I ain't looking for a fight, but start any of that bull just coz I don't see One piece in the same light as you with the use of the word Troll when they never step to combat a point you will get a fight.
I realize it's not aimed at everyone, and is a strong statement to "come back" at the opponent.
But when you make such statements at someone you're in conflict with, the rest of us easily feel disturbed as such bashing can be taken by any fan of the subject as flaming to all. Does that make sense?
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Old 2009-08-10, 17:26   Link #279
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It means that their battles probably never had a clear victor.
However, since Shanks lost his arm, Mihawk lost interest in bringing a conclusion to their rivalry by battle.
What about the line in the Data Book about there Rivalry being in the past tense? So I guess this is just like another Whitebeard and Rogers rivalry but instead of one dying. One was depowered (Shanks losing his arm to a seaking) and the title went to Mihawk by default?

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Originally Posted by aohige View Post
I realize it's not aimed at everyone, and is a strong statement to "come back" at the opponent.
But when you make such statements at someone you're in conflict with, the rest of us easily feel disturbed as such bashing can be taken by any fan of the subject as flaming to all. Does that make sense?
I dig.
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Old 2009-08-10, 17:31   Link #280
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Originally Posted by Master Mold View Post
What about the line in the Data Book about there Rivalry being in the past tense? So I guess this is just like another Whitebeard and Rogers rivalry but instead of one dying. One was depowered (Shanks losing his arm to a seaking) and the title went to Mihawk by default?
It's not clear, but that is a very common and valid assumpation.
Whether you consider Mihawk "the victor" from that is up to you.

Now, that's about the "rivalry". We don't know if their rivalry was over swordmanship, or just simply rivalry over "who is stronger".
We don't know if this caused Mihawk to attain the title, we just know that it ended their rivalry.

Same as Whitebeard. WB and Roger may have been rivals over being the greatest pirate of New World, and get to Raftel. Not over the title of "Pirate King".
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