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Old 2009-08-13, 01:12   Link #321
Phenomenal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andy View Post
Because shanks being stronger without his arm does not matter to mihawk . As i said before it looks like mihawk stop fight shanks cause he lost a arm not because he grew weaker.
This makes no sense.."Mihawk lost intrest in Shanks cause he lost an arm and not because he got weaker?" LOL, Shanks couldn't beat Mihawk with BOTH [That means two people] arms that's why Mihawk DISMISSED Shanks hundreds of chapters ago when Shanks asked for a duel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paradox13
Why are you so stubborn?
No it's you people who are stubborn MM is actually following canon...

From Databook Red........

本来左ききであるシャンクスはかつて、右の腰に長剣を携えていた。 ミホークとライバルだった 過去からみて も、その剣の実力は世界でもトップクラスだ ったのだろう

"Shanks, who is naturally left-handed, once held his long sword on his right hip. Even looking from the past where he and Mihawk were rivals, that sword's skill/power was the top class in the world."

All the legendery duels Shanks and Mihawk had, duels that rocked the Grandline....We know Shanks is a swordsman, you don't duel Hawkeyes to the death multiple times with a sword when you're not a swordsman.
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Old 2009-08-13, 01:32   Link #322
andy
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Originally Posted by Phenomenal View Post
This makes no sense.."Mihawk lost intrest in Shanks cause he lost an arm and not because he got weaker?" LOL, Shanks couldn't beat Mihawk with BOTH [That means two people] arms that's why Mihawk DISMISSED Shanks hundreds of chapters ago when Shanks asked for a duel.



No it's you people who are stubborn MM is actually following canon...

From Databook Red........

本来左ききであるシャンクスはかつて、右の腰に長剣を携えていた。 ミホークとライバルだった 過去からみて も、その剣の実力は世界でもトップクラスだ ったのだろう

"Shanks, who is naturally left-handed, once held his long sword on his right hip. Even looking from the past where he and Mihawk were rivals, that sword's skill/power was the top class in the world."

All the legendery duels Shanks and Mihawk had, duels that rocked the Grandline....We know Shanks is a swordsman, you don't duel Hawkeyes to the death multiple times with a sword when you're not a swordsman.
And where in the data books was it said he only set of skill was swordsman ship. Also in the same data books it was said shanks did not lose any power which means he not any weaker .He is very good with a sword does not mean that is his onlysets of skills.

Last edited by andy; 2009-08-13 at 01:44.
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Old 2009-08-13, 01:42   Link #323
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Originally Posted by andy View Post
Okay
Yeah, I already proved my case, its up to you to prove yours "that Shanks is not a swordsman, and his fighting style is X" with facts and not assumptions, (which don't exist). I'm not going to keep wasting my time with you, repeating facts etc etc that your only going to ignore. I agree to disagree.

but I will correct you here.

Quote:
Also zoro illusions are from his sword skills most of time when you see them is when he uses a move. There are not a extra skill zoro adding illusions to his swords it not going to make him by pass DF power unlike what we saw with haki.
No, the illusions are from Zoro's "Killer intent" which was stated in the Yellow Data Book.
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Old 2009-08-13, 01:57   Link #324
andy
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Originally Posted by Master Mold View Post
Yeah, I already proved my case, its up to you to prove yours that Shanks is not a swordsman, which you have yet to do. I'm not going to keep wasting my time with you, repeating facts etc etc that your only going to ignore.

but I will correct you here.



No, the illusions are from Zoro's "Killer intent" which was stated in the Yellow Data Book.
okay shanks is a swordsman it which part of the manga or data book did they say he only fights with sword skills.Why can't he use haki to help him in battle.

My point with haki is we can see how it can be use to give a person a advantage in battle. why can't oda just use that make mihawk weaker than shanks which would make the story consistent. Since haki has nothing to do with sword skills.

once again i don't care who is stronger this whole thing started because Phenomenal said if shanks is stronger than mihawk it would make the story inconsistent.

Last edited by andy; 2009-08-13 at 02:16.
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Old 2009-08-13, 02:47   Link #325
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Have anyone thought of that the word "swordsman" probably just refer to a person who fights with Katana, i.e. Zoro and Mihawk? Especially out of a Japanese manga? That would save a lot of arguing, would it?
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Old 2009-08-13, 03:11   Link #326
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I'm not sure why people are still discussing this (besides the fact that we are bored ). The data books give 2 very important clues to this conversation: 1) the rivalry between Mihawk and Shanks was never settled, and neither defeated the other during any of their legendary duels; and 2) Shanks lost none of his power (whatever that may mean) upon losing his arm.

Consequently, if we classify Shanks as a Swordsman, and add the fact that Mihawk never actually defeated him in battle (he simply stopped battling him), then Mihawk doesn't deserve the title of "Strongest Swordsmen" (since his former rival is still undefeated and is still as powerful as he was during their duels). Unless there was clearly a more powerful swordsmen at the time (that we currently do not know about, so this is all conjecture) that Mihawk defeated to gain the title of "Strongest Swordsmen", then Mihawk not defeating Shanks becomes problematic for describing Mihawk as the "Strongest Swordsman".

But, if Shanks power lies not in his swordsmanship, but rather his Haki (whatever type he may possess), then Mihawk not defeating Shanks need not be a mark against his title of "Strongest Swordsman".

Additionally, and to speculate, while Shanks overall power may not have changed upon losing his arm, it is possible that Shanks' swordsmanship did decline upon losing an arm. So while he was as strong as he was before, he had to rely more on Haki than swordsmanship, and consequently Mihawk could easily assume the title of "Strongest Swordsman" (this is a conjecture, mind you).

Quote:
Originally Posted by drummania View Post
Have anyone thought of that the word "swordsman" probably just refer to a person who fights with Katana, i.e. Zoro and Mihawk? Especially out of a Japanese manga? That would save a lot of arguing, would it?
I was thinking something similar. Maybe swordsmen are different from sword users. Specifically, someone like Rayleigh would be a sword user, he uses a sword to channel his Haki, but it is conceivable that he could use any weapon to channel his Haki, so his sword isn't as important. On the other hand, there are people like Zoro whose entire being is in their sword(s); rather than simply using a sword, the sword is an extension of their being. Consequently, Mihawk could be the greatest Swordsmen, but he could still be defeated by characters that use swords but their powers lie elsewhere.

This is conjecture, mind you, and is really based on personal opinion. I believe Zoro/Mihawk are Sword masters, able to use the sword as an extension of their mind, body and soul. Whereas Kaku, and most others, are sword users: people who simply use the sword as a tool to win their fights.
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Old 2009-08-13, 03:27   Link #327
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I'm not sure what the argument is this time, but here's something from me.

It doesn't matter what kind of sword you're using, as long as its a sword and its your main weapon, you are a swordsman. The word 'katana', just means 'sword' in Japanese. You can use Japanese Katanas, claymores, rapiers, sabers etc, as long as you're trained in the sword and is your main weapon, you are a swordsman.

Yes, its true the story doesn't say that Shanks can only use swords and have no idea how to fight otherwise. But using his sword, Shanks was a swordsman rival to Mihawk. And as a swordsman, he used to fight equally with Mihawk.

Why does Mihawk have the title of 'World's Strongest Swordsman'? Because no one else is able to claim that title from him, its that simple.

Even in real life, in any international tournament or competition, the winner will hold the title. Someone else who didn't compete can be stronger, but no one knows that, because he didn't challenge the champion. The champ still holds the world's strongest title.

Mihawk has no interest in fighting Shanks, their rivalry is of the past, Mihawk still holds his title as no one can snatch it from him. But we will never know who is stronger as long as they don't fight.

On Zoro's 'killing intention' and swordsmanship with Haki.

In case people don't know, 'killing intention' is called 'Sakki', yes, the same 'Ki' as in 'Haki'.

Sakki is the murderous killing intention you feel from someone who's out to kill. Anyone can hold a sword, but not everyone can be as deadly with a sword. A truly powerful swordsman will be so skilled with a sword that you feel that you're dead just by looking at him, that is Sakki.

When Zoro uses Asura, he is gathering all his killing intention into a single attack, at this moment his opponents feel so much fear from him that they see an illusion of Asura in Zoro, the demon with multiple heads and limbs. Zoro's attack is deadly enough to generate such a response and is also able to create the same destructive force. Or you can say that its exactly because the attack is able to cause damage like the demon Asura, that people can see the form of Asura in Zoro before they even receive it.

Haki like Sakki, the word 'Ki' in this sense means intention, 'killing intention' for Sakki and 'Intention to dominate' for Haki. Haki simply means the dominating spirit or ambition one has, to overcome and defeat his opponents. The fact that Mihawk fought to become the 'World's Strongest Swordsman', mean that he had such an ambition, Haki, to allow himself to attain such power and the title itself. People fear him just knowing his name, because he had attained that title and made a name for himself with his power. The power that one has is his Haki.

Does wielding a sword have nothing to do with Haki? Of course it has alot to do with it, especially for those who want to defeat all other swordsmen, that ambition is Haki itself. Because a swordsman has such an ambition, Haki, he doesn't give up in battle until he dominates all others.
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Old 2009-08-13, 04:04   Link #328
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
It doesn't matter what kind of sword you're using, as long as its a sword and its your main weapon, you are a swordsman. The word 'katana', just means 'sword' in Japanese. You can use Japanese Katanas, claymores, rapiers, sabers etc, as long as you're trained in the sword and is your main weapon, you are a swordsman.
Ah, but that is where the debate is currently centered. Is Shanks a swordsman, or does he simply use a sword bolstered by his Haki abilities (and his Haki simply happens to be better/greater than Mihawk’s)? To put it another way, is Whitebeard a spear user (a practitioner of Naginatajutsu (or whatever a Bisento-user practices)), or is he a devil fruit user, or some combination?

Mihawk may very well be a better swordsman than Shanks (currently or previously), but that doesn't mean that Mihawk is superior to Shanks. Again, I would claim that they are probably equal, similar to Whitebeard and Roger.

Last edited by james0246; 2009-08-13 at 04:14.
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Old 2009-08-13, 04:59   Link #329
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Ah, but that is where the debate is currently centered. Is Shanks a swordsman, or does he simply use a sword bolstered by his Haki abilities (and his Haki simply happens to be better/greater than Mihawk’s)? To put it another way, is Whitebeard a spear user (a practitioner of Naginatajutsu (or whatever a Bisento-user practices)), or is he a devil fruit user, or some combination?

Mihawk may very well be a better swordsman than Shanks (currently or previously), but that doesn't mean that Mihawk is superior to Shanks. Again, I would claim that they are probably equal, similar to Whitebeard and Roger.
Well, we do not know whether Shanks only fights with a sword or does he have other methods of fighting. In the One Piece games, Shanks fights with his sword, gun and his fist, but of course it's not canon.

As a swordsman, he could be equal to Mihawk in the past, but we will never know now since they won't be fighting each other. Shanks could be a weaker swordsman in techniques compared to Mihawk, but his strength and Haki makes up for the weaker technique. Mihawk could have weaker Haki but the technique and skill with the sword to be undefeated. Still Mihawk should have a strong Haki enough to rival Shanks, both of them couldn't defeat each other, neither of them had the intention to lose.

What we know is that Shanks was a capable swordsman and rivaled Mihawk as one. We don't know, but Shanks could be an excellent brawler like Luffy, using his single arm and kicks, he also has incredible strength as well seeing that he blocked Whitebeard with a single arm.

A martial artist doesn't always stick to a single method of fighting, a swordsman can also be great at bare fisted fighting. Shanks may be good at sword fighting, he may also be good at other methods of fighting. Yes, its like Whitebeard, he could fight with his Bisento or with his quake ability. He is a master of both weapon and ability, both are his main weapons.

Let's say the world tennis champion and the world's badminton champion were to play against each other in both games. The tennis champ would most likely win in tennis and badminton champ would win badminton. But they're still both 'World Strongest' in their games.

We can't really tell anyone is stronger than another if we don't see them fight. Someone carrying a title is only the strongest until he is defeated and surpassed. If he is equal to someone else but not defeated, he just keeps his title.
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Old 2009-08-13, 05:20   Link #330
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C.A i understand what you are saying about haki. But my point was that oda could use that to make shanks stronger than mihawk if he wants .So it won't matter in long run of the story. Mihawk would still be strongest swordsman in world. But shanks beating him won't be a problem story wise.

As you said we will never know . This whole thing started because Phenomenal said if shanks is stronger than mihawk it would make the story inconsistent i said no and this what happen .

lol
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Old 2009-08-13, 05:27   Link #331
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I see, actually my posts also support Shanks to be possibly stronger than Mihawk.

Swordsmanship may not be Shank's best area, though he's great at it.

If Shanks doesn't use a sword, he may still be stronger than Mihawk. Like the tennis and badminton example I mentioned.
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Old 2009-08-13, 08:37   Link #332
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
I was thinking something similar. Maybe swordsmen are different from sword users. Specifically, someone like Rayleigh would be a sword user, he uses a sword to channel his Haki, but it is conceivable that he could use any weapon to channel his Haki, so his sword isn't as important. On the other hand, there are people like Zoro whose entire being is in their sword(s); rather than simply using a sword, the sword is an extension of their being. Consequently, Mihawk could be the greatest Swordsmen, but he could still be defeated by characters that use swords but their powers lie elsewhere.
He doesn't need a sword to channel his Haki. He was shown to be able to channel his Haki to target specific individuals, and he was able to reflect Kizaru beam from killing Zoro just by redirecting it with a kick.
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Old 2009-08-13, 09:13   Link #333
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Yes, you do not need a specific object to 'channel' your Ki, but you can still put your Ki into doing something. I must remind people that the word 'Ki' describes mood, intention, will, emotion and spirit.

Refer to those words and you can understand how Ki works.

Take Ussop for example, he lacks courage, 'Yuuki' in Japanese. He did not have Yuuki when he fought Perona, but when he put on Sogeking's mask, he got a moment of Yuuki, he gained courage and confidence from the mask. It stuck to him for a while until he realised Perona's ability and her real body, he now has Yuuki even without the mask.

If you wield a powerful weapon or ability, you may feel a strong Haki or Sakki with it. But ultimately, the Haki or Sakki comes from the person himself. You can say the weapon or ability creates a 'Ki' connection between the itself and the user. And the connection works both ways, the weapon or ability makes you intimidating, or you can say that you wielding the weapon or ability in an intimidating way.

It doesn't matter what weapon or ability it is, a sword or Devil Fruit ability, everything makes up the Ki of a person. This includes the person's reputation, looks, character and personality.
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Old 2009-08-13, 09:57   Link #334
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The problem boils down to this, C.A.

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Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
It doesn't matter what kind of sword you're using, as long as its a sword and its your main weapon, you are a swordsman.
This is a fact.

Quote:
And as a swordsman, he used to fight equally with Mihawk.
This is NOT a fact.

We do not have ANY information on how they fought.
You're basically making a blanket statement, filling in information that is not given to us yet. We do not know if they were matched in swordsmanship, or otherwise.
Shanks and Mihawks were a match, yes. However, we have no information on HOW they were matched.

If Sanji used kitchen knife and fought equally with Zoro, using both his kicks and knife, it doesn't make him an equal swordsman as Zoro.
But with multiple arsenals at his disposal, he could possibly match Zoro.
Since we have no information on exactly how Shanks fight, we can't make an assumption just YET that he was an equal swordsman as Mihawk.

However, I think it's perfectly fine to make a temporary assumption based on given information, which Master Mold has repeatedly stated.
"Until further information is revealed, I'm going to assume xxx based on information given" is the right stance to have.
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Old 2009-08-13, 10:54   Link #335
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Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
I'm not sure what the argument is this time, but here's something from me.

It doesn't matter what kind of sword you're using, as long as its a sword and its your main weapon, you are a swordsman. The word 'katana', just means 'sword' in Japanese. You can use Japanese Katanas, claymores, rapiers, sabers etc, as long as you're trained in the sword and is your main weapon, you are a swordsman.
This is quite possibly an overkill etymology lesson (and others may disagree on the details), but: From what I remember, while 'katana' could be said to just mean sword, it's a bit more complicated than that. The closest equivalent to the English word 'sword' in Japanese would probably be 'ken' - as in "Hikari no Ken" (Sword of Light) or "kenjitsu" (the art of the sword). In Japanese, "katana" didn't become common until about the 16th century, replacing the older word "tsurugi".

IIRC In Japanese, it would be generally incorrect to refer to a double-edged sword as a "katana" ("tsurugi" or "ken" would probably be used instead). I think "tsurugi" can refer to a "Samurai sword" but would be odd to do so in modern Japanese. Within a single story, if you have "katana" and "tsurugi" being referred to, it's probably being used to distinguish single-edged and double-edged swords.



Going back on-topic slightly and as a general note to everyone... I think it would be wise to not take the data books literally - or rather, translations of them. From what I've seen, some of the translations are quite poor.
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Old 2009-08-13, 11:00   Link #336
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Well, I've been under the impression that Mihawk used to fight Shanks on many occasions without a clear winner because they are equally strong with each other. And it was pointed that Shanks was a great swordsman, I think Buggy said that in that very first arc. My early impression and probably still the same now, is that Shanks has always been fighting as a swordsman.

But yes, if it wasn't a fact then I could be wrong.

My posts above also point out that Shanks could be stronger in other ways and not weaker than Mihawk because Mihawk is the 'World's Strongest Swordsman'.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kari-no-sugata View Post
This is quite possibly an overkill etymology lesson (and others may disagree on the details), but: From what I remember, while 'katana' could be said to just mean sword, it's a bit more complicated than that. The closest equivalent to the English word 'sword' in Japanese would probably be 'ken' - as in "Hikari no Ken" (Sword of Light) or "kenjitsu" (the art of the sword). In Japanese, "katana" didn't become common until about the 16th century, replacing the older word "tsurugi".

IIRC In Japanese, it would be generally incorrect to refer to a double-edged sword as a "katana" ("tsurugi" or "ken" would probably be used instead). I think "tsurugi" can refer to a "Samurai sword" but would be odd to do so in modern Japanese. Within a single story, if you have "katana" and "tsurugi" being referred to, it's probably being used to distinguish single-edged and double-edged swords.



Going back on-topic slightly and as a general note to everyone... I think it would be wise to not take the data books literally - or rather, translations of them. From what I've seen, some of the translations are quite poor.
Yea, I know the word does have a more specific meaning.

I'm not saying a rapier or claymore is a katana, but a wielder of a katana, is just a swordsman like a wielder of a rapier or claymore.

Oda seems to be stretching the term 'katana' as well, seeing that Mihawk's sword is also a wazamono, which is supposed to be a ranking system for katanas.

EDIT: On the data book translations, yes its not properly translated. One of the problem is that the translators seem to be translating from the chinese version of the book. A translation of a translation will definitely have something lost in translation.
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Old 2009-08-13, 18:21   Link #337
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once again i don't care who is stronger this whole thing started because Phenomenal said if shanks is stronger than mihawk it would make the story inconsistent.
It would, since at this point in the story shows Shanks to be a great swordsman, and nothing more, and for another swordsman to be greater then the one who the story has dubbed the greatest of all swordsmen in the world, aka Mihawk (the light weight champ) it would be an inconsistency, for all swordsman in the world are by default weaker then Mihawk.

Now For it NOT to be an inconsistency, Shanks main power must lay in something else, like a Fruit or street fighting hobo style, which hasn't made its appearance in the story yet.
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Old 2009-08-13, 18:25   Link #338
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Meh, let's just wait and see what Shanks and Mihawk can really do. I doubt there's a viable scenario in which they would be pitted against each other, but it's possible - such as perhaps, if Shanks shows up on the battlefield somehow on the side of Whitebeard...
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Old 2009-08-13, 18:28   Link #339
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I think we will get a chance to see them (Shanks and Mihawk) do battle/duel sometime latter in the Manga.

But N E ways why we talking bout these feather weights when the heavy weight champ Newgate is pwning all of the WG tops dogs by swinging his fist and smiling?
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Old 2009-08-13, 18:30   Link #340
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You think as a flashback or as a modern type occurrence?

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But N E ways why we talking bout these feather weights when the heavy weight champ Newgate is pwning all of the WG tops dogs by swinging his fist and smiling?
Lol
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