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Old 2009-08-07, 20:49   Link #21
Blue-kun
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It still bugs me that even big anime productions like Garden of Sinners use so many stills.
I don't know how Kara no Kyoukai became a "big anime production". Although I don't have any sort of numbers to back me up here, the fact that it's being shown on TWO THEATERS in Japan makes me think that their budget might not be so hot as you (and a lot more people) seem to think..

Oh, and if I recall correctly, they also went public sometime ago saying they were having some trouble with the seventh movie, too, so I'd say they're not exactly dancing on top of a Yen mountain.

On the other hand, they sure must be making a good profit out of the movies, since every DVD sold more than 50k copies, which is a pretty high number.
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Old 2009-08-07, 20:51   Link #22
Revenger1589
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Originally Posted by lubczyk View Post
It's supposed to animation not a book. You can have good animation and a good story. When I'm watching animation, I expect it to be good. If you're only riding on a story, publish a book or an audio drama.

It still bugs me that even big anime productions like Garden of Sinners use so many stills. Much of the latest film was lifeless.

Stills in animation suck, even in anime with "good stories." The writing quality in anime needs to go up as well.
Are you really complaining about the animation of Kara no Kyoukai? Over animating something usually makes it look worse, UFOtable have obviously learnt their lesson from Manabi Straight.

And regarding the topic, HD makes no difference to the animation quality.
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Old 2009-08-07, 20:55   Link #23
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you're such a negger, TheFluff.
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Old 2009-08-07, 21:13   Link #24
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Originally Posted by Revenger1589 View Post
Are you really complaining about the animation of Kara no Kyoukai? Over animating something usually makes it look worse, UFOtable have obviously learnt their lesson from Manabi Straight.

And regarding the topic, HD makes no difference to the animation quality.
Well, if they stuck with smaller canvases (even a smaller 4:3 aspect ratio) they would have more manpower to draw more in-between frames. I'd be happy with that.
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Old 2009-08-07, 21:26   Link #25
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It doesn't work like that, TheFluff already explained why. You may choose to use simpler artwork to provide smoother animation, like Kemonozume and Kaiba, but resolution has nothing to do with it, in fact, both these anime aired in HD.
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Old 2009-08-07, 21:30   Link #26
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Originally Posted by Theowne View Post
This thread is called "would you sacrifice HD for better animation". I said yes, using Ghibli films as an example of great animation. I would surely give it up for regular anime to look more like them. Can you tell me where the problem lies here?
Well, the neg rep criteria appears to be posting in this thread rather than what you post, so at least he's being equal about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lubczyk
Well, if they stuck with smaller canvases (even a smaller 4:3 aspect ratio) they would have more manpower to draw more in-between frames. I'd be happy with that.
Aren't these canvases digital to begin with? If so, you have the option of filling it with more detail, but through the magic of modern scaling tech, you can also fill it in with the exact same amount of detail you were before, just as quickly.

And the 16:9 aspect ratio presents framing opportunities for a scene 4:3 doesn't, so it's not like cutting that is anywhere near negligible.
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Old 2009-08-07, 21:35   Link #27
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Actually, having a anime 4:3 make the picture quality worse than having 16:9 and you are losing content in the process. This was done with Clannad which the widescreen versions that BS-i aired were marginally better than the ones on TBS.

Besides, most stations upscales the actual video to high definition, so most of the time, it won't look as good since the original video is just standard definition (854x480). If you compare the station's and the upscaled DVD, the upscaled DVD most of the time will have better picture quality. Sacrificing HD wouldn't do much since most of these productions are upscaled.
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Old 2009-08-07, 21:42   Link #28
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Originally Posted by chikorita157 View Post
Besides, most stations upscales the actual video to high definition, so most of the time, it won't look as good since the original video is just standard definition (854x480). If you compare the station's and the upscaled DVD, the upscaled DVD most of the time will have better picture quality. Sacrificing HD wouldn't do much since most of these productions are upscaled.
And yet these "upscaled" shows include several KyoAni works... generally considered to fall more to the detail end of the scale than the high frame rate end.

Which is of course the correct choice for those shows... I didn't notice a lot of jerky animation in Clannad because they did give frames to the few scenes that needed it.
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Old 2009-08-07, 22:29   Link #29
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My point still stands. I see no major dip in animation quality recently because I don't nitpick. Therefore, nothing needs to change.
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Old 2009-08-08, 01:53   Link #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
Does HD even have much of an impact on anime production?
I don't think so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lubczyk View Post
Well, if they stuck with smaller canvases (even a smaller 4:3 aspect ratio) they would have more manpower to draw more in-between frames. I'd be happy with that.
I don't think the canvas size relative to drawing amount changes. Certainly any on-paper doesn't (cuts, key-frame sketches; on-paper in-between sketches). If the in-betweens are drawn digitally, why would they spend more time drawing? Are you saying they would in-effect have to move their hands 4x more on a tablet? why, when it's scalable anyways

edit:
the other point is to look at the old titles are re-mastered natively in HD, with the cells re-filmed onto HD. If you say you have to sacrifice in-between man power for HD production, then how are they able to remaster those then?

edit 2:
I do think though that the average in-between animation could be much better. I mentioned this in another thread before, but they could utilize software more (vectorization, CG modeling, skeletal modeling, IK transformations, etc) to really increase the efficiency as opposed to drawing most of the frames by hand. US/Western animation I think is actually better in this regards.

Last edited by npcomplete; 2009-08-08 at 02:10.
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Old 2009-08-08, 02:32   Link #31
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Originally Posted by Theowne View Post
This thread is called "would you sacrifice HD for better animation". I said yes, using Ghibli films as an example of great animation. I would surely give it up for regular anime to look more like them. Can you tell me where the problem lies here?
You want regular anime to look like Ghibli films? The title of the thread is "Sacrifice HD for better animation". Ignoring how wrong that is in the first place you've seemed to misread it as "Every animator sells of his house and gives funds to the anime they work on so they can look like Ghibli films." Comparing hand drawn Ghibli works of arts with massive budgets to regular anime is just lol
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Old 2009-08-08, 03:19   Link #32
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People are making it look like before HD there was only quality animation and now it's turning every anime in 'the violinist of hameln'

this thread is funny
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Old 2009-08-08, 03:36   Link #33
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How could you sacrifice HD for a better animation? They're not even dependant on each other. It's not like people in studios have more time for animation if they make SD-only. I must agree with TheFluff here, this thread is completely pointless.
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Old 2009-08-08, 08:16   Link #34
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Originally Posted by chikorita157 View Post
Actually, having a anime 4:3 make the picture quality worse than having 16:9 and you are losing content in the process. This was done with Clannad which the widescreen versions that BS-i aired were marginally better than the ones on TBS.
you're actually serious are you
since it appears you are, I'm going to have to take the bait and make a serious business explanation here, sorry if I got trolled

There is nothing inherently "worse" or "better" about any particular image aspect ratio. What happened in the Clannad case (yes, that's what the TBS transport stream looks like) was that it was made as 16:9, then for some reason the scum at TBS did what they do with a lot of anime, they pan and scanned it to 4:3. This obviously meant content was lost. The part where the broadcast version of any kyoani show looks like absolute shit even in the widescreen version is either some convoluted form of "BUY THE DVD'S, FAGGOT" DRM, or their engineers/the broadcast stations' engineers plain don't know what the fuck they're doing (pretty much all of kyoani's shows and all of the 4:3 pan&scan shit aired on TBS looks like it's been pulled through a bad analog composite cable, with predictable results: rainbows, dotcrawl and general shittiness).
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Old 2009-08-08, 12:10   Link #35
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I was under the impression that shows like Gundam 00 and Samurai 7 were shows that were specificially drawn on a larger canvas and at greater detail so to take advantage of High-Definition.

You can draw frames on a postage stamp or you can draw frames on a wall-sized mural. The latter will almost always display more detail, especially if scanned into digital format and displayed on a screen.

IF you want to make an anime look good in high definition, you have to draw the individual frames larger and include more detail. That takes more manpower and time than drawing for, let's saw, a smaller output format like SD.

If animation production companies switched to a smaller canvas that wasn't meant for HD, individual artists would spend less time to draw a single frame and could utilize the time and effort saving to draw more frames, am I not correct? We're not taking about filming here, we're talking about cells that have to be drawn.

It still feels that anime, in over 60 years, hasn't moved past the motion-comic stage, even though production, spending and tools have become better, more efficient and more resourceful.
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Old 2009-08-08, 13:11   Link #36
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Originally Posted by lubczyk View Post
IF you want to make an anime look good in high definition, you have to draw the individual frames larger and include more detail.
But who's to say that they aren't already large enough and contain the detail you need to begin with? That's why I mentioned refilming the cells at higher resolution for HD, which does result in better detail. I think you're assuming that they are starting out postage sized.

The cells aren't that small anyways, something like a square foot, sometimes a couple in. larger. You can still certainly draw very fine detail at that size. It would be impractical to blow it up proportionally to the final medium's resolution size. That is, make the canvas 4-6 sq ft, which would make it impossible to use.

Anything on physical sheets / cells now (like after 2000) are just for the sketches, outlines for the characters and objects. They are all scanned in, lines cleaned up and finalized digitally, and painted digitally. The backgrounds are also sketched on paper then rendered digitally.
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Old 2009-08-08, 13:21   Link #37
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But who's to say that they aren't already large enough and contain the detail you need to begin with? That's why I mentioned refilming the cells at higher resolution for HD, which does result in better detail. I think you're assuming that they are starting out postage sized.

The cells aren't that small anyways, something like a square foot, sometimes a couple in. larger. You can still certainly draw very fine detail at that size. It would be impractical to blow it up proportionally to the final medium's resolution size. That is, make the canvas 4-6 sq ft, which would make it impossible to use.

Anything on physical sheets / cells now (like after 2000) are just for the sketches, outlines for the characters and objects. They are all scanned in, lines cleaned up and finalized digitally, and painted digitally. The backgrounds are also sketched on paper then rendered digitally.
There has to be a way to further refine the process.
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Old 2009-08-08, 14:05   Link #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lubczyk View Post
There has to be a way to further refine the process.
So basically you're trying to troll us by commanding the production companies to do what you think is best. I think people are right; this thread is pointless. Why don't you mail ufotable and post us the reply.
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Old 2009-08-08, 14:12   Link #39
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Originally Posted by lubczyk View Post
There has to be a way to further refine the process.
If npcomplete is right and the cells are like 1 square foot, then you're talking 12 inches X 12 inches. Scan that at 300 DPI and you get a 3600X3600 resolution... way more than enough for HD. Mastering in HD just means you retain detail that would otherwise be lost to fuzziness.
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Old 2009-08-08, 14:17   Link #40
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Anyways, the sketches they scan into the scanner will be higher quality (since they use high end, professional scanners, not the consumer models) than just doing it on the computer and afterwards, they can either clean it up or vector it so it will be higher quality (most likely using a graphics tablet of some sort or a mouse) and put it together once the background is completed and digitally color it. Although the animation is above the HDTV resolution, the final most of the time is downscaled...

I have to agree, this topic is pretty much pointless.
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