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Old 2010-11-03, 23:04   Link #821
LotionExplosion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omimon View Post
Spoiler:
AWESOME! Damn, If I can only read Japanese, I would die Happy.

EDIT: Why isn't that being translated now

Last edited by LotionExplosion; 2010-11-04 at 01:22.
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Old 2010-11-04, 04:11   Link #822
Shikijin
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Originally Posted by LotionExplosion View Post
AWESOME! Damn, If I can only read Japanese, I would die Happy.

EDIT: Why isn't that being translated now
Because the only active translators are busy with Kizumonogatari, I guess

Btw, I was thinking about it... (no, I'm not talking about translating neko )

Personally I am self-taught on Japanese. I just thought of a simple trick: you get the text in an electronic format, and then you check each word simply with a click. This is a lot faster than checking words on a dictionary (find radical + count strokes), though it will still take a lot of time. If you can skip learning kanji then you can just learn the grammar and you can start practicing immediately. The idea is that learning how to translate a written language takes less time than learning how to speak, read and write in it, because you focus on a smaller task. Over time though you will even start to get the subtleties of fansubs. You need to start translating first because that way you can see if your idea of the original text's meaning makes sense, after some chapters though when you think you've got the gist of Japanese you can start reading directly.

What I was thinking is that I could try to write a guide on how to translate Japanese. I am just self-taught, but I managed to learn more than what you can find on free sites. I was picturing this grand plan of training people on how to translate Bakemonogatari to save me work. The only point is that translating something takes more time than one could possibly imagine, and this even if one doesn't even need to check words on a dictionary. It takes a lot of dedication. Learning a language is not easy, and it's not something you can do in just a month. If you think you will still be watching anime five years from now, then learning a bit of Japanese may be a handy hobby though.
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Old 2010-11-04, 08:42   Link #823
karice67
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^
I'm self-taught too, and quite frankly, I can't agree with focusing on just the reading side. And I definitely don't recommend trying to translate unless you're already very good at both languages. Unless you're really die-hard about what you're trying to translate, you'll only get frustrated.

Reading really isn't enough. All four skills (reading, writing, listening, speaking) will help you learn, but the real key is INPUT: read and listen to as much material as you can. Related material if you can help it (e.g. try watching anime with Japanese closed captions, reading manga in Japanese and watching their anime adaptations etc). The main reason I can read novels after 3.5 years of serious dedication is because I've done enormous amounts of listening for about 8 years.

It's the initial stage, getting the basics, that's hard, but after that, you just have to keep enjoying everything you can get your hands on (try to get an electronic dictionary too, one with writing recognition). And with the internet, you don't have to be in Japan to do it.

=====

And apologies, I'm can't join you in translating the novels m(_ _ )m. I'm working on some (mostly) audio-related translation projects myself.
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Old 2010-11-04, 08:47   Link #824
omimon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
^
I'm self-taught too, and quite frankly, I can't agree with focusing on just the reading side. And I definitely don't recommend trying to translate unless you're already very good at both languages. Unless you're really die-hard about what you're trying to translate, you'll only get frustrated.

Reading really isn't enough. All four skills (reading, writing, listening, speaking) will help you learn, but the real key is INPUT: read and listen to as much material as you can. Related material if you can help it (e.g. try watching anime with Japanese closed captions, reading manga in Japanese and watching their anime adaptations etc). The main reason I can read novels after 3.5 years of serious dedication is because I've done enormous amounts of listening for about 8 years.

It's the initial stage, getting the basics, that's hard, but after that, you just have to keep enjoying everything you can get your hands on (try to get an electronic dictionary too, one with writing recognition). And with the internet, you don't have to be in Japan to do it.

=====

And apologies, I'm can't join you in translating the novels m(_ _ )m. I'm working on some (mostly) audio-related translation projects myself.
I want to add that with novels like Bake, understanding the language is one thing but also understanding the lingos. This series and some others use what I would call modern usage of a language and just studying a language with a textbook can only get you so far.
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Old 2010-11-04, 09:16   Link #825
karice67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omimon View Post
I want to add that with novels like Bake, understanding the language is one thing but also understanding the lingos. This series and some others use what I would call modern usage of a language and just studying a language with a textbook can only get you so far.
*Agrees*. Just looking at just the Bake drama CD made me really grateful that I've lived in Japan and actually asked about some of the things that would otherwise have confused me (e.g. 倍率/bairitsu = ratio of applicants to available places at a school. Is there actually a word for this in English? ).
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Old 2010-11-04, 13:38   Link #826
Shikijin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
I'm self-taught too, and quite frankly, I can't agree with focusing on just the reading side.
It is obvious that speaking helps you remember the words better, and writing helps you remember the kanji better. In high school though I was required to learn how to translate Latin and Ancient Greek yet I was not required to speak nor write them, so the idea is perfectly acceptable for me.
Quote:
And I definitely don't recommend trying to translate unless you're already very good at both languages. Unless you're really die-hard about what you're trying to translate, you'll only get frustrated.
All the material I use to learn Japanese is in English, but it would have been too hard to start translating directly in English, so I started translating the first chapters of Nisemonogatari in my mothertongue. The first chapter, 6 pages long, took me 2 whole days. I admit I even felt a sense of proudness. When I got to chapter 4 things had started to click. I went back to the first chapters and I noticed I had to correct almost half of them with what I've learned meanwhile.

One cannot hope to learn without errors. On the other hand, I didn't find it frustrating. In fact, quite the opposite. The more you go on, the more you feel you are becoming skillful. You just have to accept initially you will have more losses than victories.
Quote:
Originally Posted by omimon View Post
I want to add that with novels like Bake, understanding the language is one thing but also understanding the lingos. This series and some others use what I would call modern usage of a language and just studying a language with a textbook can only get you so far.
Well, technically with Shinobu there is even old Japanese And Nisio not only makes a modern use of Japanese, but also speaks with a slight dialectal inflection (not counting characters that have specifically a heavy accent). I can even tell where he is from
Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
*Agrees*. Just looking at just the Bake drama CD made me really grateful that I've lived in Japan and actually asked about some of the things that would otherwise have confused me (e.g. 倍率/bairitsu = ratio of applicants to available places at a school. Is there actually a word for this in English? ).
Searching it on kotobank:

1 ある数が他の数の何倍であるかを示す比率。また特に、競争率。「―の高い名門校」

競争率 (n) ratio of successful (applicants) to total applicants

I think it's "admission rate" in English.

If you want a word difficult to translate, try this

マッチポンプ (n,vs) stirring up trouble to get credit from the solution (wasei: match pump, i.e. lighting a match and then putting it out with a water pump)
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Old 2010-11-05, 01:17   Link #827
LotionExplosion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shikijin View Post
Because the only active translators are busy with Kizumonogatari, I guess

Btw, I was thinking about it... (no, I'm not talking about translating neko )

Personally I am self-taught on Japanese. I just thought of a simple trick: you get the text in an electronic format, and then you check each word simply with a click. This is a lot faster than checking words on a dictionary (find radical + count strokes), though it will still take a lot of time. If you can skip learning kanji then you can just learn the grammar and you can start practicing immediately. The idea is that learning how to translate a written language takes less time than learning how to speak, read and write in it, because you focus on a smaller task. Over time though you will even start to get the subtleties of fansubs. You need to start translating first because that way you can see if your idea of the original text's meaning makes sense, after some chapters though when you think you've got the gist of Japanese you can start reading directly.

What I was thinking is that I could try to write a guide on how to translate Japanese. I am just self-taught, but I managed to learn more than what you can find on free sites. I was picturing this grand plan of training people on how to translate Bakemonogatari to save me work. The only point is that translating something takes more time than one could possibly imagine, and this even if one doesn't even need to check words on a dictionary. It takes a lot of dedication. Learning a language is not easy, and it's not something you can do in just a month. If you think you will still be watching anime five years from now, then learning a bit of Japanese may be a handy hobby though.
I'm assuming your tellin me to try out rosetta stone, only if I had the time. But yeah I'll try to learn but will take a while.
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Old 2010-11-05, 02:24   Link #828
karice67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shikijin View Post
In high school though I was required to learn how to translate Latin and Ancient Greek yet I was not required to speak nor write them, so the idea is perfectly acceptable for me.
I've studied Latin too, but only reading/translation...and yeah, I really don't remember much of it.

I think you might well be one of the die-hard fans (I mean it as a compliment!). I know I sure didn't want to try translating Bakemonogatari when I started reading - I just wanted to keep reading more!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shikijin View Post
I think it's "admission rate" in English.
This or "acceptance rates". But it's still slightly different because (# of applicants accepted) doesn't necessarily equal (# of places available) <= a bit pedantic, I know. Additionally, the term in Japanese has an additional purpose in the Japanese senior high school system: it's published BEFORE schools determine who to accept, so that students can change their minds about the school they apply to (they can only apply to one school at a time). In this case, using "admission/acceptance rate" would be a bit strange.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shikijin View Post
If you want a word difficult to translate, try this

マッチポンプ (n,vs) stirring up trouble to get credit from the solution (wasei: match pump, i.e. lighting a match and then putting it out with a water pump)
I don't think we have a term for this one...as of yet, anyway. It's fun to learn how they manipulate words to create such succinct terms...not so fun when you have to translate them
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Old 2010-11-05, 07:59   Link #829
Shikijin
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Originally Posted by LotionExplosion View Post
I'm assuming your tellin me to try out rosetta stone, only if I had the time. But yeah I'll try to learn but will take a while.
Oh, no. Not that I have anything against rosetta stone. I said my idea was to write a specific guide to teach people how to translate Nisio ('cause it's the only author I have ever read) and the Japanese you will encounter when you read his books. I would have explained also how to use JWPce and how to search words not on your dictionary on the web. And I would have even supervised the translation and provided a scrupulous ダメ出し (fault-finding).
Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
I think you might well be one of the die-hard fans (I mean it as a compliment!). I know I sure didn't want to try translating Bakemonogatari when I started reading - I just wanted to keep reading more!
I had to translate because otherwise I couldn't have read anything. When every sentence has something you don't understand and you have to stop checking grammar, you can't follow the story. When I translate instead I take care everything makes sense, so even if now I can just read an I am fine, translating still makes me attempt to deal with critical points. Anyway, after Kizu I don't know if I will take on Nise I probably will try reading Zaregoto
Quote:
This or "acceptance rates". But it's still slightly different because (# of applicants accepted) doesn't necessarily equal (# of places available)
Ah, it's a cap on the number of applicants. Well, as expected the Japanese have very specific terms about school For example in my language there is not even an equivalent word for juniors and seniors
Quote:
I don't think we have a term for this one...as of yet, anyway. It's fun to learn how they manipulate words to create such succinct terms...not so fun when you have to translate them
Although I have found it first in an English book about Japanese, the term is actually found once in Nise
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Old 2010-11-10, 15:22   Link #830
redgrnbluylw
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Any news on Shiro yet? (sorry to change the topic)
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Old 2010-11-10, 16:49   Link #831
omimon
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Any news on Shiro yet? (sorry to change the topic)
It's already out. I'm personally reading it right now.
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Old 2010-11-11, 05:24   Link #832
alviam099
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Originally Posted by LotionExplosion View Post
AWESOME! Damn, If I can only read Japanese, I would die Happy.

EDIT: Why isn't that being translated now
Same for me =o=

but It is allowed not incest They're not related but omimon did they do it >.> curious ...
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Old 2010-11-11, 05:32   Link #833
omimon
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Same for me =o=

but It is allowed not incest They're not related but omimon did they do it >.> curious ...
Wait...Lotion and us were talking about Tsukihi and Araragi.....and they are related....confusion
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Old 2010-11-11, 23:42   Link #834
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Wait...Lotion and us were talking about Tsukihi and Araragi.....and they are related....confusion
I thought Tsukihi's a phoenix
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Old 2010-11-12, 00:20   Link #835
omimon
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I thought Tsukihi's a phoenix
It's complicated but I think she's still blood-related.
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Old 2010-11-14, 16:37   Link #836
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Did Hitagi get a haircut? Shit I would hate that if its true, since usually when long haired character cuts hair short they look worse.
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Old 2010-11-14, 17:26   Link #837
Shikijin
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Did Hitagi get a haircut? Shit I would hate that if its true, since usually when long haired character cuts hair short they look worse.
Spoiler for Nisemonogatari:
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Old 2010-11-15, 17:07   Link #838
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Anyone have a full summary of what happened in Tsubasa Tiger?
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Old 2010-11-15, 19:56   Link #839
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Spoiler for about nadeko:
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Old 2010-11-15, 23:21   Link #840
omimon
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Spoiler for about nadeko:
It's very subtle but she pretty much throws herself on to Araragi.

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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
Anyone have a full summary of what happened in Tsubasa Tiger?
I'm only on chapter 22 so I can only tell u things up to here:
Spoiler:

Last edited by omimon; 2010-11-16 at 00:19.
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