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Old 2010-01-13, 18:14   Link #2121
Judoh
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Well the problem is then how can we explain the disappearance of the bodies unless we use Ronove's theory or some kind of trickery to say that the weren't really dead at that time? If we follow his theory we can say that they died later and were still able to pull off the prank. And the phone call after their supposed death is evidence that one or more of them were still alive when that call was made right? the second caller used "ore", which is what George and Jessica use to say "I".

and remember None of the bodies were moved

So Krauss carrying the bodies away doesn't work especially since he was dead too. So unless you argue that the bodies were hidden under the bed or something we have a problem here.

Then again maybe hiding the bodies under the bed would be considered "moving them" too.
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Old 2010-01-13, 18:18   Link #2122
Kitsu
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Quote:
the second caller used Ore, whihc is what George and Jessica use to say I.
Actually I wanted to just read but I think I have to butt in. I think the first caller used "ore" and the second caller used "Boku" (which seemed to me more like a slip) Also Jessica never refered to herself with "ore" (as ore is strictly male) she uses "watashi" Battler and Rudolph use "ore". George and Kanon are as far as I can thing of the only ones to refer themselves with "boku"
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Old 2010-01-13, 18:21   Link #2123
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I think this is a cat box here. There are two possible explanations

1 The people in the cousins room faked their own death, they then escaped and then died. This however cannot logically explained without a conspiracy including Nanjo, Battler, Eva and the rest.

2 As the red text says the bodies were never moved. Is there any proof that they left the room? In that case you need to think everyone was lying to Natsuhi about the true location of the bodies.

Quote:
Actually I wanted to just read but I think I have to butt in. I think the first caller used "ore" and the second caller used "Boku" (which seemed to me more like a slip) Also Jessica never refered to herself with "ore" (as ore is strictly male) she uses "watashi" Battler and Rudolph use "ore". George and Kanon are as far as I can thing of the only ones to refer themselves with "boku"
Correct and let us not forget that Kanon was still alive then
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Old 2010-01-13, 18:22   Link #2124
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitsu View Post
Actually I wanted to just read but I think I have to butt in. I think the first caller used "ore" and the second caller used "Boku" (which seemed to me more like a slip) Also Jessica never refered to herself with "ore" (as ore is strictly male) she uses "watashi" Battler and Rudolph use "ore". George and Kanon are as far as I can thing of the only ones to refer themselves with "boku"
Oh okay I guess I got it mixed up...

But wasn't it said in the tips that Jessica speaks like a guy?
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Old 2010-01-13, 18:25   Link #2125
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She does speak like a guy but that's usually by adding "ze" at the end of sentences just like Battler does. She also uses the conraction of words that finish with "ai" in "e" for example Bernkastel who speaks in a feminine way to say "be silent" says:

"Urusai wa yo!"

while Jessica says

"Uruse ze!"
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Old 2010-01-13, 18:35   Link #2126
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I think this is a cat box here. There are two possible explanations

1 The people in the cousins room faked their own death, they then escaped and then died. This however cannot logically explained without a conspiracy including Nanjo, Battler, Eva and the rest.

2 As the red text says the bodies were never moved. Is there any proof that they left the room? In that case you need to think everyone was lying to Natsuhi about the true location of the bodies.
Hmmm.... it sounds like either way we have to think of it as a conspiracy where everyone lies to Natsuhi.
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Old 2010-01-13, 18:36   Link #2127
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
She does speak like a guy but that's usually by adding "ze" at the end of sentences just like Battler does. She also uses the conraction of words that finish with "ai" in "e" for example Bernkastel who speaks in a feminine way to say "be silent" says:

"Urusai wa yo!"

while Jessica says

"Uruse ze!"
Oh I've been reading the tips wrong... I assumed she used "ore" and that's why she sounds like a guy... my bad...
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Old 2010-01-13, 19:19   Link #2128
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Originally Posted by Knicknevin View Post
I have doubts that he was killed at all. If he was, it certainly wasn't in the guest room. When he was 'killed', Natsuhi was in the only hiding place that the family didn't check, and she listened carefully for movement. There wasn't any. The killer didn't make a move or a sound, and unless the entire family was in on the murder, he or she couldn't have gotten out of the room without anyone noticing.

The windows were locked and the shutters closed. The door was chained. And noone was found hiding in the room. Natsuhi didn't notice the presence of another person besides Hideyoshi. And for some reason everyone besides Erika made a point not to look in the closet. And prevented her from looking in there.

If you eliminate the impossible.... right?
I've double checked the Umineko wiki. It's never been said in red that Hideyoshi died in episode 5 or even that his corpse was found. Your doubts might be correct.
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Old 2010-01-13, 21:07   Link #2129
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Theory time.

Spoiler for About the knock:
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Old 2010-01-13, 21:20   Link #2130
TeeHee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I keep my promises. If you solve the riddle of the epitaph, you should be able to reach the Golden Land. When you have, the ceremony will be over. No more people will die.

Beatrice didn't limit that promise to "I won't kill anyone anymore", she said "no more people will die". Besides that Beatrice will take the blame of any murder that happens in Rokkenjima, the same way Gaap takes the blame for anything that disappears. We have clearly seen that in the case of the child of 19 years before.
If someone dies it's Beatrice's fault, that's how her magic works, and it's the very point of the game to demonstrate it isn't the witch's fault. If you demonstrate that the witch will die.
The implication seems to be that no more people will die "by my hand".

I am taking a different approach than you. I am assuming that a human wrote the letters and is making a promise that her Epitaph plot will come to an end - that is the full extent "Beatrice's" human capacity, and therefore, a promise fulfilled. If that were the case, then you can assume the killings are continuing because a very different plot has been executed by another person/party.
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Old 2010-01-13, 22:50   Link #2131
maximilianjenus
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Or it could be simpler, if the gold is found, a safe room is found and whatever kills battler at the end of the last day, which also happens to kill everybody else alive and is named beatrice (going by Ep4 red text) is avoided by staying in the safe room with the gold.
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Old 2010-01-13, 23:22   Link #2132
TheBatteryCo.
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This is confusing me a bit, can someone please specify this red truth for me "There are no more than 18 people on this island." (or rather 18+1) By specify I'm wondering if this only applies to the time it is stated or the 3-day period in general(though nothing like that has been stated in red). With this in addition to the Kinzo matter I can't seem to think past to begin to theorize mostly because I'm narrow-minded.
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Old 2010-01-13, 23:41   Link #2133
TeeHee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knicknevin View Post
True, but...
Spoiler for space:
I'll give it a quick whack.
(I still have yet to map Ep5, but right now I'm working on Ep2.)

I suppose that if "Beatrice" has been obsessing on how to perform a series of thirteen murders for the past few months or so, and then suddenly this girl washes ashore out of nowhere, it could mean that "Beatrice" wanted to go scouting for the next few hours before she could finally hand the letter over to Maria... or she was suddenly overwhelmed with unexpected servant tasks, giving her no time to do what she had in mind. But then, the next thing she knows is that the Epitaph has been solved. To me, it seems a bit feasible.

One thing that bothers me a bit is that someone still bothered to put up a magic circle. Should I assume that anyone can learn how to write magic circles? I would, but that seems like a sloppy assumption.

My current favorite model of "Team Epitaph" involves "Beatrice" and her "accomplices". If we assume that they are the only ones familiar with the plan, perhaps someone wanted to continue it anyways in some sort of rebellion. By that, I mean "Beatrice" said, "Okay, the Epitaph was solved, ditch the plan," but the "rebel" decides to disobey. But since this "rebel accomplice" is inferior to "Beatrice", he/she does a shoddy job of drawing a magic circle and doesn't even try to close the rooms.

You can hereafter refer to this as the "Team Epitaph Rebellion Theory".

So, given that there is a "Team Epitaph", who would rebel in Ep5, and why? Or if that model cannot work, then was information leaked outside of the Team?

Quote:
Originally Posted by maximilianjenus View Post
Or it could be simpler, if the gold is found, a safe room is found and whatever kills battler at the end of the last day, which also happens to kill everybody else alive and is named beatrice (going by Ep4 red text) is avoided by staying in the safe room with the gold.
It could work. I hesitate to fully accept it simply because it implies a fantastic device/bomb is used to mysteriously kill / cause to disapper the remaining individuals, while the already-dead corpses are still intact for the official autopsies.

On the other hand, do we know for a fact that the corpses are still intact after the police show up?
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Old 2010-01-14, 01:46   Link #2134
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBatteryCo. View Post
This is confusing me a bit, can someone please specify this red truth for me "There are no more than 18 people on this island." (or rather 18+1) By specify I'm wondering if this only applies to the time it is stated or the 3-day period in general(though nothing like that has been stated in red). With this in addition to the Kinzo matter I can't seem to think past to begin to theorize mostly because I'm narrow-minded.
let's make order. The most recent claim of that kind comes from Ep4 and says:

No more than 17 humans exist on this island!!
This applies to all games!!!


It means that for what concern Ep1 Ep2 Ep3 Ep4 the total number of people alive on the island never reached 18. However since it is confirmed that dead people do not count, their number definitely decreases.


then we have Ep5

Furudo Erika had no influence on any of Beato's games before now.
She does not exist in the worlds before this one, nor does she influence them.

Furudo Erika only increases it by one person.
Besides her, the number of people on this island is exactly the same as it was in the previous games.

That means that whatever was the actual number of people on previous episodes, the same applies to Ep5 with addition of Erika.

If the actual (maximum) number is 17, then in Ep5 they are 18. If it is 16 then in Ep5 they are 17 and so on.
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Old 2010-01-14, 02:52   Link #2135
Knicknevin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TeeHee View Post

So, given that there is a "Team Epitaph", who would rebel in Ep5, and why? Or if that model cannot work, then was information leaked outside of the Team?
Hmm... the idea might have some merit. The way I'm looking at it now, if you were to take a meta-world perspective, this game might be Lambda's way of showing Battler "What would happen if there was no Beatrice on the game board". And what do we see? The killings continue, but they've taken a new twist: someone has a personal grudge against Natsuhi.

However...the staking and magic circle in Ep 5 were still a part of the original faked death plan. Our mystery caller probably knew of the plan, but I don't think they felt any particular impulse to continue with the epitaph murders. They just wanted to make Natsuhi suffer.

WRT the magic circle, the killer doesn't need to have written it- Maria could easily have done so, and it might explain why it was so sloppy. When Hideyoshi faked his death, someone in the plan might have simply swiped the stake from Kinzo's study and given it to him.



Under the circumstances... if someone likely to be a part of the epitaph murder plot is also the killer in this game, my best bets would be Kanon, George, Jessica, and Nanjo. Well, of those four, George is probably the least likely accomplice, but his relationship to my candidate for Beatrice makes him worth observing. Nanjo and Kanon sit pretty high on the list of suspicious people. Jessica's case is odd, but there are a few details here and there that make me think she might have some connection to Beatrice. Her phone call to Battler in Episode 4 set off all kinds of warning bells.

If it's George or Jessica however, someone else must have killed them behind the scenes. Maybe Beatrice caught wind of some rebellion and snuffed it out?
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Old 2010-01-14, 05:40   Link #2136
Smeckledorf
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The announcement of the gold's location probably canceled out the epitaph murders. However, this does not mean no one will die it means the past culprits decided not to do it. I think the riddle has two solutions one will lead to the gold and one will lead to something that prevents any murders. Anyways, Krauss spoke over the phone to Natsuhi on the morning of the second day, right? Please tell me what day and time the phone call happened and if any "dead" bodies were discovered beforehand. I have a bad memory.
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Old 2010-01-14, 07:44   Link #2137
Jan-Poo
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The last phone call happened around the same time the bodies were discovered in the morning, while Natsuhi was still talking at the phone the servants knocked at her door to inform her about Genji's death.
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Old 2010-01-14, 10:04   Link #2138
SidVicious
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Finished episode 5 last night.
Now I just have to wait for episode 6.
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Old 2010-01-14, 13:20   Link #2139
LaplaceNoMa
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I've just finished episode 5. I have no idea what are you people talking about any of the red truths by Lambda/Bern being fake.

There is absolutely nothing fake in any of the red truths in ep 5. Period.
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Old 2010-01-14, 14:09   Link #2140
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by LaplaceNoMa View Post
There is absolutely nothing fake in any of the red truths in ep 5. Period.
The truths aren't fake, but they're being introduced into the court under false pretenses.

There's no way in hell Erika was taping the windows shut in the middle of a typhoon, for example.
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