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Old 2010-01-14, 14:13   Link #2141
Klashikari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
The truths aren't fake, but they're being introduced into the court under false pretenses.

There's no way in hell Erika was taping the windows shut in the middle of a typhoon, for example.
Considering it has been declared in red, that happened.
That being said, it is a gameboard created by Lambda (and to some extent, manipulated by Bern, through Erika).
Thus, even if things that are unlikely to happen did happen.

And these insane changes are actually a much better benefit than random fantasy scene, or anything down to ground like Ep1.
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Old 2010-01-14, 14:22   Link #2142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Considering it has been declared in red, that happened.
Nope. There is no red text regarding the seals on the windows specifically, only "seals" in general.

I'm not saying that she didn't seal the doors shut, but it should have been next to impossible to seal the windows in that kind of weather.

Furthemore, there's no red text regarding her staying up all night OR performing a "scientific investigation". (That one is actually impossible anyway, as it refers to materials in Kinzo's possession, and the study was locked.)

Bern is lying about what Erika did in order to get the verdict she wants. Not that the trial wasn't extremely unfair to begin with...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
And these insane changes are actually a much better benefit than random fantasy scene, or anything down to ground like Ep1.
I... can't agree with this at all.
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Old 2010-01-14, 14:45   Link #2143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Nope. There is no red text regarding the seals on the windows specifically, only "seals" in general.

I'm not saying that she didn't seal the doors shut, but it should have been next to impossible to seal the windows in that kind of weather.
And why is that?
We know it is raining and all, and? I don't see how it is impossible, nor why it should be applied to this kind of setup.

Quote:
Furthemore, there's no red text regarding her staying up all night OR performing a "scientific investigation". (That one is actually impossible anyway, as it refers to materials in Kinzo's possession, and the study was locked.)
These weren't confirmed themselves as red, but they were effective enough to generate a red truth, which is absolute regardless the conditions, so long it is the truth.
Quote:
Bern is lying about what Erika did in order to get the verdict she wants. Not that the trial wasn't extremely unfair to begin with...
The trial was unfair, and the pretenses were basically uncalled for. Yet, it is effective, otherwise, it couldn't be declared in red.

Quote:
I... can't agree with this at all.
The fact Episode 5 confirmed that some people would play dead, but are then killed afterwards is perhaps one of the most important clue regarding what kind of backstabbing people were doing behind the curtains.
That and the fact a plain "anti fantasy" stance with "anyone good enough as the culprit" doesn't work.
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Old 2010-01-14, 16:20   Link #2144
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
And why is that?
We know it is raining and all, and? I don't see how it is impossible, nor why it should be applied to this kind of setup.
Perhaps 'impossible' was the wrong word. I should have used 'insane'.

People do not climb around on the outsides of buildings taping windows shut. I'll accept that she did that to the doors, but anything else completely breaks suspension of disbelief.

Hell, didn't she even not use a ladder?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
These weren't confirmed themselves as red, but they were effective enough to generate a red truth, which is absolute regardless the conditions, so long it is the truth.
...What?

Red truth doesn't work that way. It doesn't need external validation to become a truth... like you said, it's absolute.

Yes, for the purposes of that kangaroo of a court, red from the human side needed to have evidence, and what I'm saying is that the evidence presented didn't actually exist.

Rather, Bern is just saying the absolute truth without any actual backing, which is the purpose of red text to begin with. It's just against the rules she made up.

To put it more simply: From the beginning of Ep5, I believe Bern and Lambda were working together towards a goal of killing both Beatrice and Battler, and blaming everything on Natsuhi, an easy scapegoat. The entire game is one giant sham.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
That and the fact a plain "anti fantasy" stance with "anyone good enough as the culprit" doesn't work.
...Please don't tell me you think Bern/Erika are Mystery?

Mystery is about finding the truth... what Bern/Erika were doing all Ep5, regardless of what they say, was denying the Illusion of the Witch. That's Anti-Fantasy. Bern even SAYS that.
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Old 2010-01-14, 16:33   Link #2145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Perhaps 'impossible' was the wrong word. I should have used 'insane'.
That said, are you suggesting that Erika is sane?
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Old 2010-01-14, 16:49   Link #2146
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Quote:
The fact Episode 5 confirmed that some people would play dead, but are then killed afterwards is perhaps one of the most important clue regarding what kind of backstabbing people were doing behind the curtains.
You mean the thought never occured to anyone? I've been thinking that since a long time but the problem with that are still unresolved.

How could they fake their own death? This has been at the center of countless debates since EP1

Besides it wasn't really confirmed it was just a blue theory and since Battler at the same time claims he might have killed them, why should you trust the rest?
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Old 2010-01-14, 17:51   Link #2147
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Likely, the same person helped Genji and the children. I think they could have done it with some Halloween fake wound make up and a bunch of a liquid that looks like fake blood. Did Nanjo see Genji or the children's bodies? I am more interested in Krauss. I thought he was the one on the phone faking the voice himself, but why? I think he was planning to fake his murder and commit suicide so that if he had a life insurance policy, if one existed back then, then Natsuhi would receive some money. The true epitaph killings was probably going to have Kinzo thrown in for the 6th death again. Krauss might have traveled to Kuwadorian the night before the last call to prevent anyone from finding his body, at least at first. I have no clue why he would try to hide his death.
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Old 2010-01-15, 00:05   Link #2148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
People do not climb around on the outsides of buildings taping windows shut. I'll accept that she did that to the doors, but anything else completely breaks suspension of disbelief.

Hell, didn't she even not use a ladder?
Using common sense or applying the logic of what characters "should do" in a given board doesn't exactly works when the said gameboard doesn't go as usual.
And seriously, Erika is an exaggerated representation of any detective whim that would occur on a very moderate basis, but turned to be totally overwhelming here.
Quote:
...What?
Red truth doesn't work that way. It doesn't need external validation to become a truth... like you said, it's absolute.
and I mean the opposite: the red truth in this case became the external validation, which turned Erika's statements as "truth".
Deep down in the gameboard, facts were already done. Just that Erika had to mention these deeds to elevate the red truth to the open.

Quote:
Yes, for the purposes of that kangaroo of a court, red from the human side needed to have evidence, and what I'm saying is that the evidence presented didn't actually exist.
The human side doesn't need evidence if it is the doing of the detective. This is based on knox rule, which is the very reason why Erika's actions were "flawless" for the red, despite, in a non meta world bent situation, even the pieces themselves would start suspecting her.
Quote:
Rather, Bern is just saying the absolute truth without any actual backing, which is the purpose of red text to begin with. It's just against the rules she made up.
Huh, no. The rules are affecting the pieces as we know: the fact lambda and bern commented that anyone else than a witch using red isn't possible. The witches are actually out of the rules, since by themselves, they do not "exist", since the rules are applying to a mystery portion.
Quote:
...Please don't tell me you think Bern/Erika are Mystery?
Mystery is about finding the truth... what Bern/Erika were doing all Ep5, regardless of what they say, was denying the Illusion of the Witch. That's Anti-Fantasy. Bern even SAYS that.
And did I say otherwise?
They failed, and that's what I implied: mere anti fantasy stance won't work, and that's what they were doing for the whole episode.
I never implied that I was talking about Battler you know?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
You mean the thought never occured to anyone? I've been thinking that since a long time but the problem with that are still unresolved.
What I actually implied is rather: how there is a plot behind the scenes with people who are arguably not the culprits/potential culprits at that given time.
Fake deaths are what we generally think of in a closed mystery, especially in Umineko case.

However, what's actually surprising is how a WHOLE group does that, and got killed in a unexpected timing for them.
Quote:
Besides it wasn't really confirmed it was just a blue theory and since Battler at the same time claims he might have killed them, why should you trust the rest?
The problem is how it is unlikely that it could be otherwise regarding the reason that "they are alive, yet they were presented dead in the gameboard before the trial".
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Old 2010-01-15, 00:28   Link #2149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
The problem is how it is unlikely that it could be otherwise regarding the reason that "they are alive, yet they were presented dead in the gameboard before the trial".
With the evidence presented in that episode, I do not think there is any other option other than Jessica, George, and Maria being alive when they were discovered with wounds on their necks. Possibly, they were still been in the process of dying and not actually faking. The description does say the wound is deep.
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Old 2010-01-15, 00:44   Link #2150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I'm not saying that she didn't seal the doors shut, but it should have been next to impossible to seal the windows in that kind of weather.

Furthemore, there's no red text regarding her staying up all night OR performing a "scientific investigation". (That one is actually impossible anyway, as it refers to materials in Kinzo's possession, and the study was locked.)

Bern is lying about what Erika did in order to get the verdict she wants. Not that the trial wasn't extremely unfair to begin with...
She drifted to Rokkenjima from a shipwreck in a typhoon, overhearing Battler's room for a whole night with her bare ears, so sealing the windows with tapes would not be a task for her, when the witch of Miracle was backing her up.

The study was not locked AFTER Rudolf broke the window and unlocked the door. She carried out the investigation DURING the missing 10 hours time.

If Bern is lying about what Erika had done, Lambda should know it as she was the GM, as a judge, she would be blatantly unfair if she knew Bern was lying but still permitting the entry of Bern's red texts.
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Old 2010-01-15, 00:53   Link #2151
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After seeing episode 6, it is not impossible for a GM to miss the detective's actions.
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Old 2010-01-15, 01:06   Link #2152
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
She drifted to Rokkenjima from a shipwreck in a typhoon, overhearing Battler's room for a whole night with her bare ears, so sealing the windows with tapes would not be a task for her, when the witch of Miracle was backing her up.
Miracles don't occur. Bern's TIPS even say so. >_>

Quote:
Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
The study was not locked AFTER Rudolf broke the window and unlocked the door. She carried out the investigation DURING the missing 10 hours time.
...I don't quite remember, but I believe it was a different investigation she used the forensic tools for, one that took place before Rudolf broke the window. At the time, it struck me as impossible, since the study was locked, but I may be wrong.
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Old 2010-01-15, 02:19   Link #2153
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Frankly, I don’t see any difference between “anti-fantasy” and “true mystery” positions, for me it’s just some random BS thrown in by R07 to further confuse things.

I also don’t understand the huge amount of hate or at least suspicion thrown at Bern/Erika for their actions in Ep5.

If anything, my respect for Bern went up considerably after Ep 5. People blame her (and, by extension, Lambda) for rigging the game, for making Natsuhi a scapegoat, etc. etc. As I see it, all Bern tried to do in Ep 5 was to faithfully pursue “pro-mystery” position and see it through to its logical end (i.e. exposing the culprit). Granted, she turned up with the wrong culprit, but that doesn’t make her an antagonist or inherently evil per se – she just wanted the game to be over and done with so that she could move on with her life (or was it afterlife?); that is, her motives could be pure and sincere, for all we know.

As for Erika, the only thing she can be accused of is being overzealous (albeit to hilarious effects; and admit it, after Ep 5 she is truly the most fascinating/refreshing character which this franchise was in dire need of at that late time in its lifecycle).

That’s why saying things like “Bern/Erika intentionally rigged the game”, “Erika could be the culprit”, “Erika misrepresented evidence on purpose”, “Bern’s red was a lie”, “Sealing all doors/windows was not humanly possible for Erika”, "The trial was a farce" is just plain ridiculous because it's missing the point completely. All Bern/Erika wanted was to end the game from “pro-mystery” stance in the speediest way possible which surely led to them being unscrupulous at times, but not intentionally or maliciously unscrupulous; at least we were getting somewhere which can’t be said for games with incompetent Battler as GM/detective who is usually too dense or emo to make a difference when it counts.
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Last edited by Dr. Akagi; 2010-01-15 at 02:33.
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Old 2010-01-15, 02:35   Link #2154
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Akagi View Post
her motives could be pure and sincere, for all we know.
Way to ignore everything the game says about Bern's ridiculous levels of sadism. She and Erika are even more evil, depraved, and twisted than Lambda, because Lambda can at least be reasoned and bargained with.

Bern only blamed Natsuhi for everything because of how Natsuhi would react... the game, again, practically says this. Bern doesn't CARE about finding the real truth, she only cares about solving the mystery in a way that will cause the most suffering for everyone else, all to keep herself entertained.

Furthemore, I can't believe people continue to defend Bern when she spent the entire episode making faces like this:

Spoiler for trollkastel:

Good people do not make these kinds of faces.
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Old 2010-01-15, 02:44   Link #2155
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Yeah, I really do not understand the Bern and Erika apologists.

I love blue-haired flat-chests too guys, but come on. They're freaking evil.
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Old 2010-01-15, 02:51   Link #2156
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People can make faces like that, be manipulative, don’t give a shit about others and still work towards what is generally considered “greater good” by simply being cold, rational pragmatics (a case in point is Near from “Death note” - another great character largely misunderstood by the fan community).
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Old 2010-01-15, 02:52   Link #2157
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Originally Posted by Dr. Akagi View Post
All Bern/Erika wanted was to end the game from “pro-mystery” stance in the speediest way possible which surely led to them being unscrupulous at times, but not intentionally or maliciously unscrupulous
Did you just shut your eyes and listen to the pretty music during the last chapter or something? Bern unnecessarily--and with full knowledge that it wasn't the truth--implied that Natsuhi was committing adultery with Kinzo. Even if you think that breaking Natsuhi's delusion of Kinzo was all right, there is no excuse for putting forth a hateful theory she knows is incorrect in order to do nothing but cause anguish for Natsuhi.

Honestly, people that say this are ridiculous. What did Bern and Erika do that was so helpful? They railroaded an innocent woman and everyone died anyway. Yes, that was terribly helpful for all involved.
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Old 2010-01-15, 03:24   Link #2158
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Quote:
there is no excuse for putting forth a hateful theory she knows is incorrect in order to do nothing but cause anguish for Natsuhi
And what exactly made you think that?

Only GM is in possession of the ultimate (gold) truth.

It’s Lambda’s gameboard after all, where Natsuhi could easily be a mass murderer as well as an adulteress.

For all I know, Berun is in the same position as us readers for the duration of EP 5 (as well as in previous episodes, with the only difference the gameboard being of Beato’s doing).
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Old 2010-01-15, 03:31   Link #2159
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Akagi View Post
People can make faces like that, be manipulative, don’t give a shit about others and still work towards what is generally considered “greater good” by simply being cold, rational pragmatics (a case in point is Near from “Death note” - another great character largely misunderstood by the fan community).
I always thought Near (and L, too) were just as twisted as Light, but working for the cause of 'good'. That was kind of the point, as I recall.

Oh, and the concept of the "greater good" is usually espoused by evil characters anyway.

Plus... Bern isn't a cold, rational pragmatic. She's a Bond villain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Akagi View Post
It’s Lambda’s gameboard after all, where Natsuhi could easily be a mass murderer as well as an adulteress.
Way to miss the point. Objective truth exists and pieces cannot do what they will not do.

Furthermore, witches know at least some objective truths, since they can create red freely. I'm certain Bern knew exactly what Natsuhi was and wasn't.
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Old 2010-01-15, 03:32   Link #2160
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Originally Posted by Dr. Akagi View Post
And what exactly made you think that?
It's stated that both Bern and Lambda know that Kinzo is dead. Also, Bern gloats and laughs over Natsuhi's distress as she does it, directly contradicting your supposition of her not taking malicious action in her quest to beat the game.

I also notice you didn't address exactly what Bern and Erika were so "helpful" in uncovering.
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