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Old 2010-01-31, 07:32   Link #2401
ijriims
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
After so many changes that don't match the VN at all, I really doubt the anime is anything reliable.
The term used in the VN was 流産. Unless you claim it is abortion (which is unlikely considering Kyrie), there is little to no way to twist it.

stillbirth would have been 死産.
Are you purposedly misleading this guy?

---------------------------------------------------

In EP3, Kyrie said she was having the same time of pregnancy and the same date of delivery with Asumu, this would fit what she called "fateful". If she was just having a miscarriage at the same time Asumu was having labour, it would not fit what she said.

You can decline to trust the anime, but you would better trust that Kyrie was having a stillborn at the same time with Asumu giving birth to Battler. In short, you have to trust Ryu07 made a mistake in mixing up "stillborn" and "miscarriage" in the SN.

If you don't trust it, then good luck to all your theories.
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Old 2010-01-31, 08:35   Link #2402
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
Are you purposedly misleading this guy?
From the very beginning, my stance was always giving facts and corrections. Nothing more, nothing less.
Quote:
In EP3, Kyrie said she was having the same time of pregnancy and the same date of delivery with Asumu, this would fit what she called "fateful". If she was just having a miscarriage at the same time Asumu was having labour, it would not fit what she said.

You can decline to trust the anime, but you would better trust that Kyrie was having a stillborn at the same time with Asumu giving birth to Battler. In short, you have to trust Ryu07 made a mistake in mixing up "stillborn" and "miscarriage" in the SN.
And since when Kyrie said she had miscarriage at the same time Asumu delivered?
As far as we know, Kyrie "confirmed" that both had an expected pregnancy term scheduled to the very same day. However, when she mentioned Asumu could give birth, she said "...But I had a miscarriage.". It doesn't state at all "when". By this point, it doesn't even says she was hospitalized during the same day Asumu delivered her baby.

There is always a margin of mistake. That being said, comparing the number of mistakes in the VN and the anime, the choice is rather quick. Furthermore, it seems Ryukishi didn't fix the "mistake" with Episode 4 script, unless there is another update.

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"My" theories?
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Old 2010-01-31, 09:09   Link #2403
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"流産" ryuuzan was a mistake, either from Ryuukishi himself or from Kyrie who used the wrong word.
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Old 2010-01-31, 09:21   Link #2404
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
"流産" ryuuzan was a mistake, either from Ryuukishi himself or from Kyrie who used the wrong word.
Was it mentioned in that mistake report thread in 07th Expansion BBS?
Trying to find another version, but doesn't seem to bear fruit in the script.
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Old 2010-01-31, 09:25   Link #2405
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
"My" theories?
Sorry, the sentence "good luck for your theories" was for Moogleking, since I presumed Klashikari you were quite aware of what happened in all episodes.

THe fact that you were arguing with me on Kyrie's miscarriage was already quite misleading IMO. I understand that we better not take the whole anime completely, but for this particular "miscarriage" thing, you are just misleading.

BTW, it was not "expected" pregnancy term IIRC, Kyrie did not use the word expected at all.
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Old 2010-01-31, 09:30   Link #2406
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Was it mentioned in that mistake report thread in 07th Expansion BBS?
Trying to find another version, but doesn't seem to bear fruit in the script.
If it was mentioned in the official thread then I'd knew it was Ryuukishi's mistake, and I wouldn't have included the possibility it was done on purpose as Kyrie's mistake.
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Old 2010-01-31, 09:37   Link #2407
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Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
THe fact that you were arguing with me on Kyrie's miscarriage was already quite misleading IMO. I understand that we better not take the whole anime completely, but for this particular "miscarriage" thing, you are just misleading.
In what way it is misleading when I simply repost what was exactly in the vn?
I think it is even more misleading to use the anime when we have glaring mistakes like "I confirmed their deaths in red!" while it didn't even happen, or crap like characterization changes and whatever fancy amateurish mistakes DEEN scripters did.

I will however give you that the context of the whole monologue can be taken as "they did give birth together" as well. In that instance, Kyrie just messed up, if this said interpetation is taken. That being said, the term used in the VN doesn't leave any room of misinterpretation.

The funny thing is that the matter at hand is related to a delusion/interpretation of the witch side.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
If it was mentioned in the official thread then I'd knew it was Ryuukishi's mistake, and I wouldn't have included the possibility it was done in purpose as Kyrie's mistake.
Then why can you declare "it is a mistake" without any confirmation then?
I personally can't see it as Ryukishi's mistake since it wasn't reported and not even corrected despite he thoroughly correct most misused kanji with update versions.
But if it is Kyrie mistake, it doesn't help in regards the nature of the scene itself.
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Old 2010-01-31, 09:41   Link #2408
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Then why can you declare "it is a mistake" without any confirmation then
Ah just a "hunch", but I'm quite sure it's right.
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Old 2010-01-31, 11:20   Link #2409
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Okay, so we've looked at Rudolf's "I'll be killed" thing as both a morose joke and also as a possible hunch on his part. But why not consider - even if it isn't true - the other possibility?

Rudolf was being directly threatened by the same person who threatened Natsuhi.

Now I'm not saying I believe this, but what the hell, let's look at the possibility. Suppose the person posing as "the man from 19 years ago" to Natsuhi was also calling other people. Likewise, I'm not saying he really was Natsuhi's baby, but he was willing to pretend to be him for her sake.

But somebody easily could have called Rudolf before or during the conference insinuating that bad things would happen to him if he told them who Battler really was. Of course, this requires us to ask several things about this hypothetical person:

1) Who is he?

The obvious candidates in my mind are Kanon and George. The caller is most likely a younger male, probably isn't Battler, and could be either a greater mastermind or part of someone else's group. Kanon and George both fit these categories.

I have no idea if the caller is just working for someone else's plot or if he's the mastermind. It would certainly be interesting if Kanon or George were the one manipulating everything though.

This would add another layer to the caller and explain to some extent the reach of his manipulations. After all, just controlling Natsuhi is not that impressive considering her unstable mental state. If the caller also has dirt on Rudolf, it suggests maybe he has some dirt on more people than expected. This would certainly make for an interesting situation and explain some of the disparate killing patterns.

2) Does Rudolf know (or think he knows) who he is?

I think Rudolf has a suspicion. But I think, like Natsuhi, he isn't sure. In most episodes Kanon is still alive after the First Twilight, which if Rudolf is suspicious of him might explain why he's cautious. It doesn't explain ep3 though, so it may be that Rudolf either doesn't know or isn't sure. Or perhaps he got another call in ep3 that morning? Depends on the state of the phones, perhaps.

Did someone cut the phones specifically to prevent the caller from manipulating people in certain episodes?

3) Why would he be willing to tell Battler and Kyrie even knowing he's been threatened?

Rudolf isn't as easy to threaten. He's involved in shady dealings, and perhaps what he has to tell Kyrie and Battler is important. Telling them is a risk, but if he does tell them, the caller can no longer blackmail him. But he seems conflicted enough about it to hesitate.

Which seems to be pretty important.

4) Who is Battler really?

IF this theory were true, and I'm not saying it is, Battler's birth circumstances would seem to be a lot more important than just "the hospital screwed up."

Either Battler is Kyrie's son and some strange manipulations were at work to switch the babies with no one's notice, or Battler is not Kyrie's son and is indeed somebody else, like the 19-years-ago baby or Beatrice-1967's son or something outlandish. Something that, if Rudolf found it out and the caller knew about it, really would be truly scandalous.

Whatever Battler's birth circumstances, if Rudolf is being threatened over them it can't just be "he's Kyrie's son" because that really isn't a threat to him anymore.

5) Why does the caller know?

This is more interesting. If we assume the caller has a connection to Shannon or to the servants, it's trivial to explain how he found out things about Natsuhi. But Battler? That I don't know. Look at it two ways.

If Battler is Kyrie's son and there was some phenomenal conspiracy for whatever reason, the caller must be well-connected. I don't think this would make it likely the caller is Kanon. George becomes more likely if he's more connected than we think, but I don't know where this would have been evidenced other than his general body of knowledge.

If Battler is not Kyrie's son, the possibility he's somehow connected to Kinzo and Beatrice-1967 or whatever is more likely. If that were true, then someone - perhaps Kumasawa - knows enough about the story to tell somebody else. If the caller found out from Kumasawa or a third party Kumasawa told, he could use that information against Rudolf. Again, I'm not saying I buy this, but think about it.

6) Is there any proof of this in the first four episodes?

No more than there was of the caller before. Natsuhi found a note that made her rush to the foyer. Rudolf said he'd be killed and was. That's really about all we have. A coordinated mastermind is suggested by the payoff safes and whatnot, but that would tie him very closely to "Beatrice." That doesn't help us much, as both George and Kanon could easily be close to her, especially with Shannontrice as a theory.
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Old 2010-01-31, 12:04   Link #2410
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Renall do you really think Rudolf was saying "killed" in a literal way?
To me it has always been apparent that it was a metaphorical speech, after all it doesn't make any sense otherwise. If he really believed he was going to die before the next morning he would have talked before it was too late. To me everything suggests he expected to be "killed" after he spoke and that's precisely why he was so reticent.

At any rate if this mysterious caller blackmailed Rudolf then he did that because he wanted him to confess and not the other way around, that would actually explain why suddenly Rudolf feels the need to speak in the middle of a family conference after that much time.
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Old 2010-01-31, 12:17   Link #2411
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Renall do you really think Rudolf was saying "killed" in a literal way?
To me it has always been apparent that it was a metaphorical speech, after all it doesn't make any sense otherwise. If he really believed he was going to die before the next morning he would have talked before it was too late. To me everything suggests he expected to be "killed" after he spoke and that's precisely why he was so reticent.

At any rate if this mysterious caller blackmailed Rudolf then he did that because he wanted him to confess and not the other way around, that would actually explain why suddenly Rudolf feels the need to speak in the middle of a family conference after that much time.
I think the metaphor is his intent, but we should at least consider the possibility that someone else knows. It basically hinges on whether Battler is really just Kyrie's son after all. If that's all that's going on, I can't see why anyone's blackmail would remotely threaten Rudolf. Sure, it would make Battler and Kyrie mad, but they'd get over it. It only really makes sense if something about Battler isn't what anybody figures it is.

As I said, I'm not sure I really buy that, but we have to consider that it wasn't a joke as much as that it was.
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Old 2010-01-31, 16:36   Link #2412
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If Battler is really Kyrie's son, it is more like "So, who cares?" It just doesn't really add anything to the story at all.

Apparently nobody read my post past the first two lines, because they wanted to argue that what was said was a mistake for no reason at all. It's a shame because I even addressed the idea that it was wrong, but nobody read it. I feel like this is another case of "Rosa isn't involved because I don't want her to be." If you have to start coming up with things like "The author made a mistake" then you might as well just stop trying to figure it out at all.
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Old 2010-01-31, 17:45   Link #2413
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Originally Posted by Moogleking View Post
If Battler is really Kyrie's son, it is more like "So, who cares?" It just doesn't really add anything to the story at all.

Apparently nobody read my post past the first two lines, because they wanted to argue that what was said was a mistake for no reason at all. It's a shame because I even addressed the idea that it was wrong, but nobody read it. I feel like this is another case of "Rosa isn't involved because I don't want her to be." If you have to start coming up with things like "The author made a mistake" then you might as well just stop trying to figure it out at all.
I read everything you said I just don't agree with it. I don't think it really matters who gave birth to Battler because it doesn't have much relevance to who the culprit is. I think the stuff about his birth is a red herring. In the end no matter who his mom is we just know it's not Asumu. So I don't think it's major plot point that you need to solve the mystery.
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Old 2010-01-31, 18:25   Link #2414
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Unless, of course, it is. I mean, it was brought up in ep4 without being resolved. Battler himself advanced the theory of being some mysterious baby from 19 years ago. He may not have been serious about it, who knows, but it's hardly something that's just been left dangling. We can't really be sure of that yet.
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Old 2010-01-31, 22:19   Link #2415
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Originally Posted by Moogleking View Post
If Battler is really Kyrie's son, it is more like "So, who cares?" It just doesn't really add anything to the story at all.

Apparently nobody read my post past the first two lines, because they wanted to argue that what was said was a mistake for no reason at all. It's a shame because I even addressed the idea that it was wrong, but nobody read it. I feel like this is another case of "Rosa isn't involved because I don't want her to be." If you have to start coming up with things like "The author made a mistake" then you might as well just stop trying to figure it out at all.
Regardless of Kyrie having a miscarriage or stillborn child you can still say it doesn't have anything to do with Battler.

However in the case you are imagining you really have an event that was brought up by ryukishi that would have absolutely no relevance to the story. In that case you might say it was a red herring.

However if Battler was Kyrie's son, then that mention had quite an important relevance. You say that "nobody cares", but you are missing the possibility that this "switch" might have some interesting reasons behind it, which might be relevant to the full understanding of this story.


As for Battler being the child from 19 years ago, yes that's a possibility, the reasons nobody discussed it is probably because it is an already well known theory.
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Old 2010-02-06, 17:42   Link #2416
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-axLdtSyH4

There is something interesting I found about the ??? in episode 5. At the scene where Battler finally realizes the truth and certain scenes "flash in front of his eyes". There is one scene and only one scene ( that I can find in this video) that is repeated twice throughout the whole ordeal. It's shown once in black and white and once in color.

It's a scene with Battler talking to Rosa.

Rosa: Thank you for understanding Battler kun... , but you sure are lucky...

Battler: "Huh...why?"

Rosa: "I'd want to leave if I could"

Battler:"...Ihihihi, that's right! I'll let you adults enjoy your happy family chat about the inheritance.

I wonder why Ryukishi put that scene in twice. What significance does it have other than showing that Rosa isn't motivated by money? Or is Rosa jealous of Battler somehow?
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Old 2010-02-07, 03:23   Link #2417
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-axLdtSyH4

There is something interesting I found about the ??? in episode 5. At the scene where Battler finally realizes the truth and certain scenes "flash in front of his eyes". There is one scene and only one scene ( that I can find in this video) that is repeated twice throughout the whole ordeal. It's shown once in black and white and once in color.

It's a scene with Battler talking to Rosa.

Rosa: Thank you for understanding Battler kun... , but you sure are lucky...

Battler: "Huh...why?"

Rosa: "I'd want to leave if I could"

Battler:"...Ihihihi, that's right! I'll let you adults enjoy your happy family chat about the inheritance.

I wonder why Ryukishi put that scene in twice. What significance does it have other than showing that Rosa isn't motivated by money? Or is Rosa jealous of Battler somehow?
Maybe he just forgot...?

But I wanted to know what did the magic circle showing in that flash mean. It hasn't appear in the game at all, IIRC.
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Old 2010-02-07, 03:52   Link #2418
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
After so many changes that don't match the VN at all, I really doubt the anime is anything reliable.
The term used in the VN was 流産. Unless you claim it is abortion (which is unlikely considering Kyrie), there is little to no way to twist it.

stillbirth would have been 死産.
And here we see the major issue: The way Kyrie words what she says it means that she knew Asumu and her would deliver on the same day and it makes it sound like she went to a hospital.

And I understand there are things the anime changed, especially with the way the red text was worded, but generally the normal lines were kept as they were. However the anime specifically used 'stillbirth'. Frankly I think after what Higurashi left out that Ryukishi would at least look over the script of the anime, to make sure nothing seemed too out of line.

Even then: who is Battler's mother?

A third woman? No foreshadowing. I would be highly unsatisfied with that kind of resolution. 1967 Beatrice? Again, no foreshadowing that she had ever met anybody of the Ushiromiya family excluding Rosa and Kinzo. Adoption does not work in this case either: if adoption was allowed then Beatrice couldn't make a case saying that Battler was not Kinzo's grandson and therefore was not eligible to play. This means that the relation between Battler and Kinzo must be by blood.

Honestly, people say that Kyrie being the mom is unsatisfying, but then what do you want? The 19th person? It's very likely that they're dead and someone is just blackmailing Natsuhi - they slipped up on the phone and used 'boku' rather than the usual 'ore'. If they were the actual person then why even make a slip like that? If anything it was a theory Battler threw out in order to get through Knox and make a 2nd truth.

As Jan-Poo already said, I think the method of the switch is far more mysterious than who the mother is.
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Old 2010-02-07, 08:24   Link #2419
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As Jan-Poo already said, I think the method of the switch is far more mysterious than who the mother is.
Is a switch really hard at all? (You probably have thought about it )

Asumu and Kyrie were giving birth on the same day, regardless of whether they were giving birth at the same place, probably Rudolf had arranged them close together such that he could get to his babies fast enough (neighboring hospitals, I guessed, maybe even the same hospital).

So Asumu was having a stillbirth while Kyrie had given birth to Battler. Rudolf knew about it (the obstetrician responsible for Asumu should have infomred Rudolf about it first, intending Rudolf to tell Asumu about the stillborn). But he could not just abandon Asumu by disengaging her after she had a stillbirth, at the same time, he did not want Kyrie's baby be without a father and Kyrie having no husband (Rudolf knew how Sumadera family was like). So he decided to make a switch.

Rudolf gave money to Asumu and Kyrie's the nurses and obstetricians, to make them keep the switch secret. While both Asumu and Kyrie were waiting for the nurse to tell them their babies' condition, Asumu's deceased baby and Kyrie's Battler was switched, then Rudolf told Kyrie she had a stillborn while Asumu received Battler, thinking he was her own child.

Is it possible? Yes. Is there enough foreshadowing? I would say yes also, as EP3 Kyrie said she had the same day of labour as Asumu, this was quite eventful for two love rivals to have labour on the same day, if Ryukishi07 did not plan to have some revelation about it, I doubt he would write it.

Maybe we shall see more confirmation in the coming episode. WHO knows about it?
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Old 2010-02-07, 14:54   Link #2420
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Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
Is a switch really hard at all? (You probably have thought about it )

Asumu and Kyrie were giving birth on the same day, regardless of whether they were giving birth at the same place, probably Rudolf had arranged them close together such that he could get to his babies fast enough (neighboring hospitals, I guessed, maybe even the same hospital).

So Asumu was having a stillbirth while Kyrie had given birth to Battler. Rudolf knew about it (the obstetrician responsible for Asumu should have infomred Rudolf about it first, intending Rudolf to tell Asumu about the stillborn). But he could not just abandon Asumu by disengaging her after she had a stillbirth, at the same time, he did not want Kyrie's baby be without a father and Kyrie having no husband (Rudolf knew how Sumadera family was like). So he decided to make a switch.

Rudolf gave money to Asumu and Kyrie's the nurses and obstetricians, to make them keep the switch secret. While both Asumu and Kyrie were waiting for the nurse to tell them their babies' condition, Asumu's deceased baby and Kyrie's Battler was switched, then Rudolf told Kyrie she had a stillborn while Asumu received Battler, thinking he was her own child.

Is it possible? Yes. Is there enough foreshadowing? I would say yes also, as EP3 Kyrie said she had the same day of labour as Asumu, this was quite eventful for two love rivals to have labour on the same day, if Ryukishi07 did not plan to have some revelation about it, I doubt he would write it.

Maybe we shall see more confirmation in the coming episode. WHO knows about it?
WHO knows about it is a perfect question to ask.

Well, Asumu did give birth to Ushiromiya Battler. There is no evidence that I have read where Asumu's baby was stillborn.

The switch could have happened to replace for the the baby who died with the servant who fell off the cliff.

For example, let's say Asumu gave birth to Ushiromiya Battler but then that baby was switched for the one that died falling off the cliff to cover up for the incident. That baby would then be raised and would later be given the name of Kanon.

Kyrie's baby could have been successfully delivered but Kinzo could have ordered Rudolf to switch the babies with Asumu. This would actually make the Ushiromiya Battler that we know, Kyire's son.

But getting back to your question, who would know about all this? Also, if episode 4 is a fictional tale written by someone in the game (it's been a theory for quite some time now) how would the author know that Battler is not Asumu's son?
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