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Old 2010-03-17, 08:17   Link #2521
rogerpepitone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Maria doesn't have to be acting on the culprit's behalf. Whoever sent her to play dead may not have known that the other six people in the dining room had been killed, and may have only intended her to playact for a much shorter period of time (and then the handler got whacked before finding out what was going on). So her survival could just be an unintended result of a Thirty Xanatos Pileup. After that, it's in character for her to just continue trying to fool Battler because she thought she was supposed to and nobody told her to stop.
And how long did she keep doing that? The full 24 hours? When she got hungry, did she keep the act up? Or did she sneak out to the kitchen, make a meal, and clean it all up without Battler noticing? And how did she die? We know she was dead by Oct. 5, 11:59 PM.

And like I said above, playing dead isn't easy. Without plenty of practice, I don't think she could pull it off, even for the few minutes of Battler's close (if superficial) examination.

Why Gohda is a problem: People across the phone line might have been acting on direct threat. Kumasawa might have been acting out of loyalty to Kinzo. But there was no direct threat at the guesthouse, and Gohda had no loyalty to Kinzo.

And "I have snipers all over the island"? That's ridiculous. Considering how skeptical everyone was about ONE additional person being on the island, I doubt that they'd accept lots of them. (Also, it's at night during a typhoon. Snipers aren't very effective under those conditions.) And the whole thing boils down to "Help me kill your kids or I will kill your kids.".
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Old 2010-03-17, 09:02   Link #2522
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
Why Gohda is a problem: People across the phone line might have been acting on direct threat. Kumasawa might have been acting out of loyalty to Kinzo. But there was no direct threat at the guesthouse, and Gohda had no loyalty to Kinzo.
.
Assuming that what happened in the mansion is a total fake, than the situation is similar to ep2 after the "kanon" attack in the servant room. Since that scene is also probably a fake, there should be something that the servant use to threaten Godha in both cases, that is not a direct threat to him. When he speaks to Battler in that occasion he seems really frightened, to the point that he didn't actually said anything, letting Genji and Shannon talk
I think that whaterver happened in the first twilight of ep4 and in the servant room in ep2 scares him to the point that he will just obey the culpirt out of fear that the same thing may happen to him.
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Old 2010-03-17, 10:55   Link #2523
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Well, I've been taking the Episode 2 incident as most likely being a good Genji threatening an evil Rosa. (Rosa killed Jessica and Kanon; Genji hid Kanon's body to create the "Kanon is still alive and hunting Rosa" illusion.) Even taking the worst case, Gohda had barely any time to collect his thoughts, Genji was right there, and Rosa had already shown herself unwilling to trust the servants.

On the other hand, in Episode 4, Gohda had walked from the mansion to the guesthouse, had a full half hour to think things over before he was locked in the shed, the cousins were inclined to trust him, and the most intimidating person present was Kumasawa.
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Old 2010-03-17, 11:31   Link #2524
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Then what about this? If we suppose that someone was really taken as hostage (like Kyrie "group" being in the underground prison, but it doesn't necessarly have to be them) the culpirt may just have said to Godha to tell his version of what happened to Battler and the rest, with Kumasawa as an accomplice to watch out his behaviour.
What could he do? I don't think anyone was going to believe him if he just said "Someone wants me to lie to you and Kumasawa is an accomplice"

Another option is that all that was part of the test for the grandchildren, and Godha took a part in it. But then, since Kinzo is dead, who made the test? And why should everyone go along with it?
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Old 2010-03-17, 12:05   Link #2525
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
Why Gohda is a problem: People across the phone line might have been acting on direct threat. Kumasawa might have been acting out of loyalty to Kinzo. But there was no direct threat at the guesthouse, and Gohda had no loyalty to Kinzo.
Kumasawa and Gohda were scared out of their wits of Kinzo and the supposed Demons that killed the people in the room. Are you telling me she's loyal to someone who doesn't exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
And "I have snipers all over the island"? That's ridiculous. Considering how skeptical everyone was about ONE additional person being on the island, I doubt that they'd accept lots of them. (Also, it's at night during a typhoon. Snipers aren't very effective under those conditions.) And the whole thing boils down to "Help me kill your kids or I will kill your kids.".
Well your not listening to me. Like I said it was a hypothetical. That's not the only solution, but both Kumasawa and Gohda felt threatened for some reason and they both told the same lie about people who don't exist killing people and hiding people with trap doors, which according to Knox's rules can't exist either. If you want to make it so both of them tell the same lie the easiest way is to make them both threatened by the same person(s) with their own death if they tell or somebody else's death.

It's not that hard to accept. Your just complicating it by making Gohda seem more difficult to convince than Kumasawa. When BOTH of them panicked for witnessing whatever they saw, and if you go by that "something" made them lie out of fear and they don't even need that much convincing to lie to people. Whatever they saw is what made them scared enough to lie. Loyalty to whoever doesn't do that.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-03-17 at 12:19.
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Old 2010-03-17, 13:08   Link #2526
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And she's not going to care at all that there are six people dead? You can point to ep1 where she was still in the room with Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo's corpses, but that's an awfully weird circumstance.

EDIT: Also, someone theorized Gohda and Kumasawa weren't actually able to see what happened. In that case, they might have panicked and thought they saw/heard something that wasn't quite how it happened. Now, whether that makes any sense of the magic story made up, I don't know, but it's not impossible that Gohda was legitimately frightened of something he didn't quite understand. He's not exactly the sharpest.
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Old 2010-03-17, 13:43   Link #2527
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As for Kumasawa being an accomplice to keep Gohda in line, what's she going to do if he doesn't go along with it? Any of Gohda, Jessica, George, or Battler could hold her. Keep her away from the phone and she's powerless. And once the phone call about demon bunny girls comes in, if Gohda tells them it's a load of BS - instead, Genji and Shannon shot everyone, he's a lot more credible. It doesn't make sense to me that he'd go to the more exposed area of the shed, instead of, say, hunkering down in the guesthouse, trying to hide out in the forest, or maybe even locking Kumasawa in the shed, grabbing some weapons there, and leading an offensive.

Oh, I agree that Gohda was lying; I just don't think that he was lying out of a physical threat. I think it went more along the lines of Kinzo leaving a document or a videotape prepared before his death (he would have asked Genji, Kumasawa, Kanon, or Shannon to carry out those instructedions) stating that all of them would tell the appropriate story; if they acted appropriately any of the grandchildren passed their test, that branch would receive the inheritance; if anybody broke character, they all got squat. None of them believed in an actual threat to their lives.
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Old 2010-03-17, 13:58   Link #2528
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Gohda was not a good lier, in EP4 his behaviour surely indicated he was truly frightened, and he did not say bunny girls and mysterious butler coming from nowhere, it was more Kumasawa's saying. Gohda DID verify that he witnessed people being blown half of the head and he was really astonished what sort of weapon it was.

And from the latter hanging, I thought that both Gohda and Kumasawa felt lying to the children about what really happened would finally be exposed by the police, so they were afraid of prosecution for helping the culprits in lying. They were afraid of going into jails so they intended to suicide but did not come up with enough courage to actually do so (thus the rope not really hanging them)

I suppose it was Krauss telling them to lie, and he threatened them with their lives, so they, as servants, complied.
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Old 2010-03-17, 14:19   Link #2529
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Imagine two situations: (I haven't seen the movie, but this is from _Phone Booth_.)
Guy in a phone booth gets a call. "I've got a rifle with your neck in crosshairs. "
A) "Do _____ right there & now or I'll shoot you."
B) "Go into that shop, and do ______ or I'll shoot you."

In situation A, I think he's pretty likely to go along with it. In situation B, he'd probably go into the shop, but once he's in there, out of a direct threat, why should he keep following orders?

Or how about
C) "Come out of that shop and stand in that phone booth, or I'll shoot you."

The threats I've heard made against Gohda seem to be type C threats.
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Old 2010-03-17, 14:58   Link #2530
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It really doesn't make a lot of sense. What does Gohda have to lose at the point he's in the guesthouse? But it would seem very odd to consider Gohda much of a culprit or accomplice, given his TIP and what little other characterization he's had. Yeah, he's a coward, but he's got no real stake in any of the crazy-ass family history, so most of it shouldn't mean a whole lot to him. He also doesn't seem like the sort to fake being frightened, as he's an awful liar. Or else an utterly incredible one. But I doubt that.
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Old 2010-03-17, 16:56   Link #2531
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I really doubt that he is an accomplice too. So considering the whole episode, the most plausible answere is that it is some like of test for the grandchildren.
But that the question changes... who proposed this test? Kinzo is dead and no one can mistake others for him, so why the relatives should listen to someone else, making up stories about the witch and other magic things?
Oh and i don't think this has anything to do with a culpirt or a mastermind, probably no one expected someone to start killing people. I think the culpirt just took profit of the situation.
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Old 2010-03-17, 18:12   Link #2532
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Like I suggested the test could be in Kinzo's video will or through a fake voice recording. That way he is recognized and is not really alive. Heck if they can fake a voice recording with Kinzo maybe somebody made a fake phone call to them with the voice recording.
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Old 2010-03-17, 20:28   Link #2533
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It is unlikely to be something like a video or a recorded voide. After all, the relatives is already suspecting that Kinzo is dead and in the possibility that he is alive why should be sending a video instead of speaking in person?
And also, there is that red.

All of those who met at the family conference recognized the existence of Kinzo!

There is no turning around that, we must probably axplain this red before anything else.
And if someone is really named Kinzo, as Beatrice would suggest by not repeating that no one had different names, who is this person?
There is also the possibility that her inability to repeat that was due to another shared name, not Kinzo's (like Shannon for example)
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Old 2010-03-17, 20:34   Link #2534
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Other suggestions besides mine have already been made where Kinzo's existence is recognized.

- Krauss takes Kyrie's advice and pays them money so that they recognize Kinzo's existence.

- A video will or sound recording

- Somebody brings in Kinzo's corpse on a cart and they recognize the existence of his corpse.

- Battler's Kinzo is a title theory

- Kanon's real name is Kinzo

This is a joke theory, but after reading manga gamer's translation of Higurashi I've thought about Kinzo being canned as human meat.
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Old 2010-03-17, 22:56   Link #2535
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I think we're missing out on a possibility; for example we've outlined several types of threats, always assuming that an order is given and the threat being of course; do this or you die. What would ensure that they would follow the command even if they weren't being followed?

Of the people present; one of them was an accomplice that was keeping watch over them.

Is my best guess.
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Old 2010-03-18, 02:39   Link #2536
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Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
And how long did she keep doing that? The full 24 hours? When she got hungry, did she keep the act up? Or did she sneak out to the kitchen, make a meal, and clean it all up without Battler noticing? And how did she die? We know she was dead by Oct. 5, 11:59 PM.
Knox 6: Coincidence may not be used as an investigative technique. If Battler were to randomly bump into Maria after finding her body, that would amount to solving the mystery of her "death" by coincidence, which is forbidden. Or if we look at it from Beato's perspective, not only can she choose a course of action for Maria that "coincidentally" evades Battler (there are an infinite number of these since Maria's behavior wasn't specified), she must do so to avoid the Knox violation.

I explained how Maria could have died before. The midnight event can't be perfectly instantaneous across the whole mansion no matter how rapid it is, so there's room for a person in one location to be killed before a person in another location.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerpepitone
And like I said above, playing dead isn't easy. Without plenty of practice, I don't think she could pull it off, even for the few minutes of Battler's close (if superficial) examination.
If there's any chance at all that Maria could have faked well enough to fool Battler's inspection, then it becomes a valid move for Beato. Battler doesn't have detective's authority, so it's possible for him to miss things. There are also some circumstances in Maria's favor. Battler was only checking for wounds, which shouldn't have taken much more than a minute, and Maria's arms were crossed over her chest, which may have served to conceal her breathing.
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Old 2010-03-18, 08:24   Link #2537
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It is unlikely to be something like a video or a recorded voide. After all, the relatives is already suspecting that Kinzo is dead and in the possibility that he is alive why should be sending a video instead of speaking in person?
And also, there is that red.

All of those who met at the family conference recognized the existence of Kinzo!

There is no turning around that, we must probably axplain this red before anything else.
And if someone is really named Kinzo, as Beatrice would suggest by not repeating that no one had different names, who is this person?
There is also the possibility that her inability to repeat that was due to another shared name, not Kinzo's (like Shannon for example)
I can see 3 ways to go around it. In the first place "existence" is ambiguous. What does it mean exactly? In EP5 Bern specified that when she says "Kinzo doesn't exist" she means a "living Kinzo". If there was a need to specify it, then I guess that it isn't implicit in the definition of "existing" that the subject must be alive.

In other words can we be 100% sure that the ones at the family conference in EP4 didn't simply recognize Kinzo's corpse?

Another way is what Battler suggests, someone just inherited Kinzo's name. Although I must say this interpretation sounds very lame to me.

Then there is the possibility that someone other than Battler's grandfather is called Kinzo. this is yet again a names are not exclusive argument, which I don't really like, but it was proven to be valid.
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Old 2010-03-18, 10:30   Link #2538
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I have reasons to believe that they did not know that Kinzo was dead at that point, and didn't see it's corpse. I think that in the case the relatives see the truth about Kinzo before any of the killings, that would just lead to another ep3-like killing pattern, with the servant being killed first.
How can i say that? Well it's just a theory but look at all the episodes. In the first 2 episodes we don't really know what happened in the family conference, but there are no hints about the parents finding out that Kinzo is dead, actually Eva still suspect it in ep1 before the Second Twilight.
In ep3 i noticed something when re-reading it. In the scene right before the first Twilight when the 3 servant approach Kinzo's study, Genji stops, and Kanon says "The barrier is... dead". Of course this is all a magic scene, but i believe this is a useful hint.
This is kinda confirmed in ep5, where whe know this "barrier" is the Illusion that protects the truth about Kinzo. Also, Dlanor finds strange that Lambadelta and Bernkastel forbidden the use of red that could have exposed Kinzo truth, like they want him to remain "alive".
Well, that could be the reason. Kinzo death is discovered implies a certain pattern of killings, for example Krauss may blame the servants for hiding his death.
Also notice that Kinzo death is advantageus for ALL the siblings.

To sum it up, i don't think that red is something so easy to break...
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Old 2010-03-18, 12:29   Link #2539
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How is Kinzo's death a good thing for Krauss? °°;

Anyway I don't think I understand your logic. Some of things you said are true, but how are they related with our current problem? Or how are they related with each other?

let's try to make order

first: I disagree that in EP3 the truth about Kinzo was uncovered. If that was the case there's no way the younger siblings would be that cooperative with Krauss and Natsuhi. Cocealing someone's death is a crime! Eva would never let that pass and allow Krauss to run around with a gun.

Second: why would that lead to the death of all the servants?

third: "the barrier is dead" could simply mean that they couldn't hide Kinzo's death anymore and so they made him a first twilight victim. In EP5 that you mention, the barrier was also broken, and yet the truth about Kinzo was not uncovered. Therefore the barrier of Kinzo's study being broken doesn't necessarily means that Kinzo's death status was exposed.
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Old 2010-03-18, 13:27   Link #2540
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In episode 2 I was under the impression that the reason the first twilight was all parents and no servants was because Maria introduced the halloween theme at the beginning of the episode. The Culprit probably has several locations planned, but using the idea of a halloween party it was much easier to lead people away.

Well actually after Rudolf said that he wanted to meet Beatrice they might've went meet her when the cousins left and when the got there they found an empty room, but that's not as good as the halloween theme.

Anyway episode 3's first twilight I think was a sympathy killing. If we beleive the fantasy scene with Ronove then there was a person close enough to the servants to give them an instant death so it wouldn't be a painful experience. And I guess afterward he put them in different rooms. I think the only reason the servants were killed first was because none of the family members were loafing around in that episode so the culprit couldn't get to them.
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