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Old 2010-06-29, 22:54   Link #2881
Jan-Poo
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Why you assume it was George? Three people were found there, it could be any of the three. Actually wasn't Shannon who told them about the mirror in the first place? I don't remember...
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Old 2010-06-29, 22:59   Link #2882
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Why you assume it was George?
He makes the best culprit.
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Old 2010-06-29, 23:15   Link #2883
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Technically speaking we already have another person strangely interested in Natsuhi; or rather Natushi's room.

George in EP2, where they decided to raid her room for her mirror to fight 'Beatrice.' What were they REALLY doing there to begin with? Is the mirror or the room connected to TMF19YA? Does George secretly have the hots for Natsuhi's undergarments?

:3
I'll repeat my blue in the other thread to explain that

Quote:
Kakera theory: Somebody has memories of the things they saw in Natsuhi's room in episode 2

We beleive that they entered her room to read her diaries so assuming Kakera theory still works George, Shannon, and Gohda can be TMF19YA if they remember the contents of the diaries they were looking for in her room.
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Old 2010-06-30, 00:18   Link #2884
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I have problems with the Kakera theory, or at least with carrying memories Rika-style from Kakeras.

1. I think this would violate Knox's 2nd and 6th. Maybe not if it isn't the detective using it, but it still seems fishy to me.

2. Why would they even still be on the island? If I had memories of the murders, I would be either calling the police before the phone lines go out, or better yet leaving before the storm!
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Old 2010-06-30, 00:32   Link #2885
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Thunder Book View Post
1. I think this would violate Knox's 2nd and 6th. Maybe not if it isn't the detective using it, but it still seems fishy to me.
I'm not sure about Knox's 2nd, but maybe Knox's 6th. I need to reread the episode to see what the context of that one is.

Quote:
2. Why would they even still be on the island? If I had memories of the murders, I would be either calling the police before the phone lines go out, or better yet leaving before the storm!
Well
  1. we don't know when they remember it's probably sometime in game and not before it
  2. Either of the three remembering that when the detective doesn't makes them pretty suspicious if you ask me.

It would be entirely different from Rika or Keiichi remembering since it implies they're capable of doing something malicious with that knowledge instead of preventing it from happening with that knowledge.
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Old 2010-06-30, 01:28   Link #2886
Pika_power
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Originally Posted by Thunder Book View Post
or better yet leaving before the storm!
Why only before? I'd rather take my chances with the storm than face the culprit.

The Kakera theory has some problems. With Higurashi, it was not strictly mystery. It has aspects of both. With Umineko, we're going by the rules of mystery. Also, they'd need a reason to go to the room and read the diary in the first place in EP2.

Furthermore, Knox's 8th: It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented. What clues were presented that they can retrieve memories? We cannot use Higurashi as a clue, because it's not part of Umineko. Furthermore, there's nothing to suggest any of the three have their memories retained.
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Old 2010-06-30, 02:34   Link #2887
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Pika_power View Post
Furthermore, Knox's 8th: It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented. What clues were presented that they can retrieve memories? We cannot use Higurashi as a clue, because it's not part of Umineko. Furthermore, there's nothing to suggest any of the three have their memories retained.
Shannon and Kanon mention how they usually don't survive that long in episode 4. So you could say they remember. And Erika's very existence would completely support it since she breaks the fourth wall so often.

Oh and Beatrice referencing the past games in episode 4 on the phone and on the balcony. Can't forget that.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-06-30 at 02:46.
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Old 2010-06-30, 05:07   Link #2888
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There is at least one more thing that can suggest a continuing narrative throughout the episodes for the actual gameboard people:

- George and Shannon's relationship
- Shannon's personality (progresses from shy to confident)
- Shannon and Kanon 'remembering' previous episodes.

... er... that's all I can list here.

Now, anything which progresses across episodes is target for suspicion of course. But there's that Author theory presented awhile ago now which suggests that all the episodes are written stories. The suggestion that the episodes obey Knox rules is kind of the proof of this; because the real world does not obey them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
We beleive that they entered her room to read her diaries so assuming Kakera theory still works George, Shannon, and Gohda can be TMF19YA if they remember the contents of the diaries they were looking for in her room.
In the case of the Author Theory, it still works; George's unusualy (perhaps perverted!) interest in Natsuhi is a character development thread ongoing in the series, similar to George and Shannon's relationship.

Hmm.. then again, maybe Gouda is the perv--I mean, suspiciously interested in Natsuhi.

... I think I want a Natsuhi appreciation thread. 8)
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Old 2010-06-30, 06:18   Link #2889
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All three "furniture" (Kanon, Shannon, Genji) clearly remember. Kanon declares that the killings aren't random before any have happened, they seem to use "this time" quite a bit, Shannon agrees to fight "one more time" and so on. Of course, this is confusing even when looking at it from a fantasy perspective, but whatever.
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Old 2010-06-30, 07:50   Link #2890
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I've been thinking today. Doesn't Natsuhi's red truth actually state that the mystery "man only could have been Shannon?. She said "I never told anyone except Shannon that I like Fall.". She said this after she had told him, right?
Unless this is a misstake by 07th expansion, or a mis-translation, isn't this proof that it only could have been Shannon on the phone?
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Old 2010-06-30, 07:52   Link #2891
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Witch of Uncertainty View Post
I've been thinking today. Doesn't Natsuhi's red truth actually state that she was talking to Shannon. She said "I never told anyone except Shannon that I like Fall.". Unless this is a misstake by 07th expansion, or a mis-translation, isn't this proof that it only could have been Shannon on the phone?
Shannon could have say it to anyone.
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Old 2010-06-30, 07:54   Link #2892
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My point is that Natsuhi told the mystery "man" that she liked fall.
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Old 2010-06-30, 08:02   Link #2893
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...

That's a good point.
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Old 2010-06-30, 11:59   Link #2894
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Witch of Uncertainty View Post
My point is that Natsuhi told the mystery "man" that she liked fall.
Well, that doesn't mean anything.
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Old 2010-06-30, 12:05   Link #2895
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Witch of Uncertainty View Post
I've been thinking today. Doesn't Natsuhi's red truth actually state that the mystery "man only could have been Shannon?. She said "I never told anyone except Shannon that I like Fall.". She said this after she had told him, right?
Unless this is a misstake by 07th expansion, or a mis-translation, isn't this proof that it only could have been Shannon on the phone?
That red truth refers to a past event where Natsuhi told Shannon that. That's said as much in the narration. I don't really see any reason to doubt that and make it into being about the phone call. She would have to have convincing evidence to think it could only be possible for Shannon to be TMF19YA talking to her on the phone. There isn't anything suggesting she thought that. The person on the phone seems to have knowledge of this before the phone call if you don't use the card trick theory. If we take the past games into account Natsuhi's more likely to think it's a 19th person on the phone rather than one of the others.
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Old 2010-06-30, 12:23   Link #2896
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Battler retains his memories of the past games. Ergo, Beatrice, his opponent, would also retain her memories. This explains why Shannon and Kanon remember.

Alternatively, it's just fantasy, so it doesn't matter.
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Old 2010-06-30, 12:31   Link #2897
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Witch of Uncertainty View Post
My point is that Natsuhi told the mystery "man" that she liked fall.
Here's another example about how "implicit assumptions" works on reds.
The implicit assumption here is "before today", which is missing in the actual text but considered a given.

The other famous example is this red:

It is impossible to unlock the lock to the chapel without the chapel's key

the implicit assumption here is "from outside", because we have absolute certainty that from inside there's a manual lock.
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Old 2010-06-30, 12:34   Link #2898
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Pika_power View Post
Battler retains his memories of the past games. Ergo, Beatrice, his opponent, would also retain her memories. This explains why Shannon and Kanon remember.

Alternatively, it's just fantasy, so it doesn't matter.
I would find it more interesting if the detective didn't remember and the culprit always did. It makes the stakes higher and puts pressure on Battler. It's also the opposite of Higurashi in a way.
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Old 2010-06-30, 14:13   Link #2899
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I must be missing something here. Where was it said that Piece-Battler remembers what happens on previous boards?
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Old 2010-06-30, 14:14   Link #2900
ijriims
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Because the author retained memory........

The puzzle is: WHo was the author?
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Battler, you have already known it, right?

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