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Old 2010-07-06, 17:14   Link #2961
LyricalAura
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Maybe she's hoping for a way that will allow Battler to win while Bern loses. You can't say anything isn't certain with Lambdadelta, after all. She'll certainly make Battler win and Bern lose, all at once!
You know... Has Lambda ever actually done anything that didn't end up helping Beato and Battler in some way? Even once?
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Old 2010-07-06, 17:14   Link #2962
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At this point, I'm not sure what she wants at all. So I really don't know.
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Old 2010-07-06, 17:22   Link #2963
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
You know... Has Lambda ever actually done anything that didn't end up helping Beato and Battler in some way? Even once?
...I wonder.

What if Lambda is actually out to depower Bern, rather than just trap her in a stalemate or win? Certainity does not win against miracles because these powers are exactly opposed, and it becomes an endurance contest. But if Lambda can get Bern to engross herself in somebody else's story and bet on something which is not simply unlikely, but explicitly logically impossible, she can trap her in a paradox.

After all, no miracle will determine the behaviour of a barber who shaves and doesn't shave himself.

EDIT: In fact, treat this paradox as a loop, and you get precisely what eternal magic would probably be able to accomplish.
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Old 2010-07-06, 17:22   Link #2964
Sniesk
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I sort of think she's come to realize this game will end. If it must end, she wants to make sure Bern will be the loser. That's about the only reason I could ever see her helping Battler so much. She does a whole lot more than just establish equilibrium when it suits her, and the things she does to "help" Bern and Erika don't necessarily always look so helpful in the end.

In other words, I think she's realized a stalemate might not be possible, and if it's not, Bern can't as a secondary goal be allowed the satisfaction of the game ending her way.

Erika seems blissfully ignorant of most of this, and thinks her role is the one she was told it was. It clearly isn't; she's there to be used, nothing more.
Even if this is the case, so why she let Kinzo escape? Becouse that will actually help Bernkastel with her goal (framing Natsuhi).
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Old 2010-07-06, 17:25   Link #2965
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
You know... Has Lambda ever actually done anything that didn't end up helping Beato and Battler in some way? Even once?
Nice point... however she did try to "bribe" Ange. And if Ange accepted it could have been very bad for Battler.

Then in EP5 I don't know if it can be said that she has done something against Battler, but with all that stuff she allowed Bern to do, indirectly she did. It's not like Lambda couldn't limit Erika's power if she wanted.
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Old 2010-07-06, 17:46   Link #2966
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Nice point... however she did try to "bribe" Ange. And if Ange accepted it could have been very bad for Battler.
Would it really have been, though? If I remember correctly, Lambda didn't ask Ange to lie to Battler or mislead him, just to back off if he was doing too well. That could be read as: "You can give him hints, but not too many -- he needs to solve it for himself."

I also think that, given that Ange was ostensibly Bern's piece, the fact that Lambda was even in a position to bribe her at all is quite interesting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Then in EP5 I don't know if it can be said that she has done something against Battler, but with all that stuff she allowed Bern to do, indirectly she did. It's not like Lambda couldn't limit Erika's power if she wanted.
Based on her reactions at the end, I always thought she'd expected him to smash Bern's theory much earlier in the proceedings. With Meta-Beatrice out of the picture, she'd basically taken over the position of trolling Battler to get him motivated.
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Old 2010-07-06, 17:59   Link #2967
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Originally Posted by Sniesk View Post
Even if this is the case, so why she let Kinzo escape? Becouse that will actually help Bernkastel with her goal (framing Natsuhi).
Bernkastel is too smart to fall for someone who is actively opposing her at every turn. I suppose the idea is that she believes Lambda to be her enemy, but considers her incompetent and easily fooled (see the ep4 ????). The only way Lambda can possibly put one over on Bern would be to appear to be doing what she's always claimed she's doing, while doing something else incredibly subtly.

The real question is, how would Battler notice this to coordinate with her? I can't imagine they can chat without Bern noticing.
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Old 2010-07-06, 18:24   Link #2968
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
The real question is, how would Battler notice this to coordinate with her? I can't imagine they can chat without Bern noticing.
Battler and Bern had a long conversation about Beato and Lambda in that scene just after they show Natsuhi and Krauss's honeymoon. Bern's conclusion from what all she told him is that Lambda's goal is "to make Battler and Beato into lifeless dolls that she can play with for all eternity". And since a big chunk of that conversation was to lead up to the red that says You will never be released as long as this game remains unresolved. I'm not sure what she's lying about in particular in that scene, but for him to go against Bern she has to be telling him a really, really, big lie, and I'm not sure what that lie is.

She did say she could say in red that "Beato will never laugh again though". So I'm certain she thinks it's impossible for her to return to normal.
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Old 2010-07-06, 19:20   Link #2969
June 1983
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I'm in the middle of replaying Ep 5 and I've just gotten to the point where Knox's Decalogue is first introduced. Lambda says,

Quote:
...because of Knox's seventh: "It is forbidden for the detective to be the culprit." There was an exception clause in the original, but for this game "the detective isn't the culprit" has been stated in red.
What is this exception clause she's talking about? I went looking for it online but I haven't seen anything like that.
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Old 2010-07-06, 19:23   Link #2970
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I believe the exception Knox and Dine recognized is that a person posing as a detective can be a criminal, but the legitimate "detective" of the story cannot.
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This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

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Old 2010-07-06, 19:26   Link #2971
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by June 1983 View Post
What is this exception clause she's talking about? I went looking for it online but I haven't seen anything like that.
I've never seen any exception clause like that, either.
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Old 2010-07-06, 19:26   Link #2972
June 1983
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Ah, okay! That makes sense.
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Old 2010-07-06, 19:33   Link #2973
SeagullCrazy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I believe the exception Knox and Dine recognized is that a person posing as a detective can be a criminal, but the legitimate "detective" of the story cannot.
That's correct. Here's the article for reference: http://gadetection.pbworks.com/Ronal...ective-Fiction
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Old 2010-07-07, 16:45   Link #2974
Disz
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Newbie thoughts.

Um..this is my first post,and I've been reading these for along time.I'd just like to say something.

What if Shannon has a split personality?Yah I know it's probably been suggested before,but I do not mean shes Kannon.I mean that when
Spoiler for Spoiler Scene:
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Old 2010-07-07, 17:56   Link #2975
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Originally Posted by Disz View Post
Um..this is my first post,and I've been reading these for along time.I'd just like to say something.

What if Shannon has a split personality?Yah I know it's probably been suggested before,but I do not mean shes Kannon.I mean that when
Spoiler for Spoiler Scene:
I think that would violate Knox's fourth.
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Old 2010-07-07, 19:23   Link #2976
Disz
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Originally Posted by Pika_power View Post
I think that would violate Knox's fourth.
It is not a drug or a scientific device,let alone hard to understand.
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Old 2010-07-07, 20:58   Link #2977
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Originally Posted by Disz View Post
It is not a drug or a scientific device,let alone hard to understand.
Maybe after George's proposal, it triggered a memory? Well it was 6-years ago.

By the way, did George even get a chance to propose to Shannon in EP5? Clearly this may not be a fixed factor in the game! Could mean something
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Old 2010-07-07, 21:01   Link #2978
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Ronove View Post
By the way, did George even get a chance to propose to Shannon in EP5? Clearly this may not be a fixed factor in the game! Could mean something
He didn't in EP4 either. Said so himself. And Beatrice doesn't deliver a letter to Maria in that EP. Instead 'Kinzo' gives her an umbrella and no letter ever appears until the headship test.
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Old 2010-07-08, 01:04   Link #2979
Kylon99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronove View Post
By the way, did George even get a chance to propose to Shannon in EP5? Clearly this may not be a fixed factor in the game! Could mean something
George and Shannon's relationship is indeed suspicious. See how it develops over each episode? How can it do that unless it's not part of the 'constants' of the gameboard? Basically, I think Shannon gaining confidence is 'character development' for Shannon, who seems to have access to Meta World knowledge at times.

... is all I can say while in this episode thread. 8)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
He didn't in EP4 either. Said so himself. And Beatrice doesn't deliver a letter to Maria in that EP. Instead 'Kinzo' gives her an umbrella and no letter ever appears until the headship test.
For example in EP4, Shannon states that 'perhaps they should fight one more time.' or how she and Kanon tend to die early..

Also, notice how EP4, the plans the Beatrice faction (mostly the servants) have had for the letter and their first twilight shenanigans have basically been overridden by a 'Kinzo.' And then how this exactly mirrors the meta-world where Beatrice lets 'Kinzo' take over for him a bit there..
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Old 2010-07-08, 01:21   Link #2980
Disz
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I'm sort of confused.

In EP 4,''Beatrice'' has ''burned ''Kinzo'''' after getting angry at Battler.In the game,does the game show Kinzo as ''Missing'',during this point?Because if we have the viewpoint of
Spoiler for theory founded in EP5:
,then I believe the body must have been hidden in the mansion,and ''Beatrice'' retrieves the body and burns it at that time.Please,correct me if I'm wrong.
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