AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Notices

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 2010-07-08, 03:04   Link #2981
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Disz View Post
I'm sort of confused.

In EP 4,''Beatrice'' has ''burned ''Kinzo'''' after getting angry at Battler.In the game,does the game show Kinzo as ''Missing'',during this point?
You mean in the character TIPS? The answer is no. By the time Battler reaches the balcony George's portrait is the only one affected. The game shows it as Kinzo is dead later, but only after Battler finds him in the boiler room. And I think that's actually in the Tea party. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Judoh is offline  
Old 2010-07-08, 03:40   Link #2982
Disz
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Floor eh duh?
I see.

So then,how was the body hid?Beacause The Ushiromiya family were inside Kinzo's room!I'm not really sure if this was the problem in question in this EP because I haven't re read it In a while,so I may just be repeating a question.

Oh,and how did the body reach all the way to the basement?The way knzo was burned may have been a fantasy scene,but it doesn't nececarily mean where it happens was forged too.
Disz is offline  
Old 2010-07-08, 07:54   Link #2983
Sniesk
It's Hammertime!
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Italy (Neaples)
Well it is always found burned there so we don't even know where the body is kept before, and there is no clue about how it ends up closed in the boiler.
Sniesk is offline  
Old 2010-07-08, 08:13   Link #2984
Oliver
Back off, I'm a scientist
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
After extensive meditation on the subject, I have concluded that only two practical possibilities to burn Kinzo's body during the game exist:
  • It is kept in his study marinating in embalming fluid for a purpose unknown. When it's time to burn it, it's tossed out of the window and dragged to the boiler room from the courtyard.
  • It is buried deep in the forest, and exhumed sometime during the morning of the 4th, before rain and typhoon starts, and temporarily hidden on mansion grounds somewhere.
Everything else involves people doing things that are simply very hard or too stupid to attempt.
__________________
"The only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."
Paul K. Feyerabend, "Against Method: Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge"

This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
by the Department of Education.
(updated 2010-08-24)
Oliver is offline  
Old 2010-07-08, 08:18   Link #2985
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
Originally Posted by Disz View Post
So then,how was the body hid?Beacause The Ushiromiya family were inside Kinzo's room!I'm not really sure if this was the problem in question in this EP because I haven't re read it In a while,so I may just be repeating a question.

Oh,and how did the body reach all the way to the basement?The way knzo was burned may have been a fantasy scene,but it doesn't nececarily mean where it happens was forged too.
Kinzo's room? In EP4 the only family members that were shown going to Kinzo's room were Natsuhi and Krauss, which we know from EP5 that are part of a conspiracy bent on covering Kinzo's death.

If you are talking about Kyrie, Krauss, Shannon, Kanon and Nanjo, they weren't in Kinzo's room, but in some kind of underground room below the Kuwadorian.

And even then that's just where they were shown to be trapped in a magic scene, it doesn't necessarily mean that they were actually there.

As for EP5 every red about his position that were said by Bernkastel have absolutely no value because it was specified that they referred to a "living Kinzo". and a living Kinzo doesn't exist anywhere.

The adults may think they have checked the whole mansion but without detective authority there will always exist the chance that they missed some place.
Additionally:
they didn't check the whole guesthouse
they didn't check the shed
they didn't check the chapel
they didn't check the underground tunnel and the rooms connected to it
they didn't check Kuwadorian
They didn't check the existence of any other "place x" that could exist in the island

In conclusions there are plenty of places where Kinzo and all the other missing bodies could have gone.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline  
Old 2010-07-08, 08:20   Link #2986
ArcticHelm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
As far as trying to figure out what Lambda is up to, it's hard to say. Actually, I'm not so sure it is really clear what Bern is trying to do either. I think that this point I'm somewhat convinced the two are working together towards some end neither could accomplish on their own.

In regards to Kinzo's body, I think if we knew that for any of the episodes it'd probably clear up a lot of issues. :<
ArcticHelm is offline  
Old 2010-07-08, 14:17   Link #2987
Witch of Uncertainty
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
So, after replaying the second twilight in EP1, I was reminded that in the first 4 episodes, only what Battler sees is valid.
So, I made a theory about how the second twilight can have been done..

Spoiler for Second Twilgiht (EP1):


I have not found any conflicting red, but if anyone has anything that contradicts this theory, please tell. And I apologize if this is "widely known" by now.
Witch of Uncertainty is offline  
Old 2010-07-08, 15:01   Link #2988
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Actually only the reds referring to Natsuhi's room mention a "living Kinzo". The rest say "Kinzo doesn't exist here".

And like I said those reds are probably likely Dlanor's "I will not allow such a thing to exist" reds. Only they're saying "I will not allow Kinzo to exist anywhere, but in Natsuhi's room" because they want to frame her.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-07-08 at 15:14.
Judoh is offline  
Old 2010-07-08, 15:05   Link #2989
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Red is tied to context and before all the reds were listed Bern stated:

"From now on, I'll use the word Kinzo to refer to 'the living Kinzo'"
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline  
Old 2010-07-08, 15:47   Link #2990
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Witch of Uncertainty View Post
So, after replaying the second twilight in EP1, I was reminded that in the first 4 episodes, only what Battler sees is valid.
This isn't actual red text. There is no red confirmation, ever, that what Battler sees can be considered true.
__________________
Kaisos Erranon is online now  
Old 2010-07-08, 16:05   Link #2991
Witch of Uncertainty
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
This isn't actual red text. There is no red confirmation, ever, that what Battler sees can be considered true.
I skimmed through it, and you are right. I just took this for granted, somehow. I read through the red text of ep 5 and found nothing on Battler being the detective before ep 5..
My theory doesn't change though, since we already know we can't trust their views, since they have witnessed magic. But you are absolutely right.
Witch of Uncertainty is offline  
Old 2010-07-08, 16:15   Link #2992
cmos
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Dlanor's red:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dlanor
Until now, you have been the DETECTIVE! Was it ever shown that you were not the detective this time, and that you were an observer with a subjective VIEWPOINT?!! Unless it was, you do not have the right to falsify your point of VIEW!!
cmos is offline  
Old 2010-07-08, 16:23   Link #2993
Witch of Uncertainty
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Oh, thanks. Must have missed that. If that's the case, I would say that my previous red is truly a red.
Witch of Uncertainty is offline  
Old 2010-07-08, 16:59   Link #2994
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmos View Post
Dlanor's red
I don't think this actually confirms that 'what the detective sees is always true', however.

He can't falsify his own point of view, yes, he can't lie to us directly, but that doesn't mean that he can't be fooled or tricked by something that appears to be what it's not.

Unless you want to say that he actually did meet with a blonde Western woman named Beatrice...
__________________
Kaisos Erranon is online now  
Old 2010-07-08, 18:04   Link #2995
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Well of course... that red simply means that what Battler sees can't be a "fake scene".
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline  
Old 2010-07-08, 22:09   Link #2996
Disz
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Floor eh duh?
I also found interesting thoughts from Sayo.When she's breaking the mirror.I always thought this scene was a bit shady,so I'm rereading EP2.

Spoiler for Sayo thinkin':

Not that interesting,but still raises some thoughts.

Wait.I just kept reading and after reading things about her life beyond the mirror yada yada she says this.

Spoiler for This girl's a hard thinker:

Dang Sayo,you mad huh?

What is she really complaining about though?I'm not understanding it at all.It's tough to be furniture,but they've done it for so long, starting from child hood, I just sort of figured it couldn't be that bad.

Maybe it's something else?

Last edited by Disz; 2010-07-08 at 22:34.
Disz is offline  
Old 2010-07-09, 05:27   Link #2997
Sniesk
It's Hammertime!
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Italy (Neaples)
Am i the only one that thinks that the mirror scene just mean that Shannon killed someone? Kinzo or Kanon maybe. Afterall breaking a mirror is clearly an analogy of breaking her fate. As we know from the dialogue of Beatrice at the of ep4 it is possible that Kinzo abused "her" (assuming she is Shannon, witch to be honest, i'm not so sure of) and maybe she killed him to free herself from him. Do we know exactly how Kinzo died? If i recall, Nanjo just says that he died peacefully, but as the body was hidden, no one ever performed a proper autopsy.
Or she may have killed Kanon (or her other personality, or whatever he is), but i don't want to go into a Shkannon theory, witch i don't support.

Regarding the detective perspective, Knox Rule just say that he can't lie about what he sees, and he can't hide what he discovers. But he is still a human so is perspective may still be wrong due to misunderstanding, personal interpretation and state of mind (think of Keiichi in Onikakushi-hen)
Sniesk is offline  
Old 2010-07-09, 06:01   Link #2998
Disz
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Floor eh duh?
I think there is a huge time difference.But i'm probably wrong.If anyone, the only one Shannon could kill is Kinzo.Though I doubt it.There has to be something else. X.x I'm probably thinking too much,but I just know I'm on the right track.Something here has to be missing.
Disz is offline  
Old 2010-07-09, 08:11   Link #2999
Witch of Uncertainty
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I don't think this actually confirms that 'what the detective sees is always true', however.

He can't falsify his own point of view, yes, he can't lie to us directly, but that doesn't mean that he can't be fooled or tricked by something that appears to be what it's not.

Unless you want to say that he actually did meet with a blonde Western woman named Beatrice...
It does confirm that anyone else can falsify their points, so therefore saying that no one's, but Battler's point of view can be trusted(EP1-4), can be a "red truth".
Witch of Uncertainty is offline  
Old 2010-07-09, 08:15   Link #3000
DgBarca
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Witch of Uncertainty View Post
It does confirm that anyone else can falsify their points, so therefore saying that no one, but Battler's point of view can be trusted(EP1-4), can be a "red truth".
But it doesn't mean that all the things that are told by another person are false.
There is still thing that you don't have to doubt.
DgBarca is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 22:30.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.